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Guard 'ignored red light and refused to let passengers off'

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Mojo

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Radio and phones may be far quicker, but it is still no sure thing that signal protection can be provided, which is no use if your lying foul of an adjacent running line never mind spread over a junction.
In that case, the driver can press the 'Emergency' button, as what happenned at Potters Bar. I'm not sure what put the signals back at Potters Bar, I suspect it was track circuits although could easily have been an emergency broadcast made.

In a different incident, in a non-track circuit area, or in case the circuits are not tripped had trains not been DOO, and thus the compulsory requirement for CSR, I'm sure it could have been far worse, as the guard and driver would have to have been able to run pretty fast in order to stop the train that was heading towards the scene at full line speed.

Of course CSR (and now GSM-R) and DOO are not mutually exclusive.
 
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Metroland

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Who protects the train if both the driver and guard cannot, or track circuit clips are impossible to get to due to damage? Well the answer to some of it is the signalling system and signalling staff. Unlike road vehicles you are not sat there on your own, vehicles (apart from in yards and low speed permissive sections) do not mix with themselves.

So why can't the ticket collector protect the train by making a phone call to his control or dialing 999? Emergency service control, have direct phones to railway control. TOC/NR control have direct lines to signal boxes. It would probably take less than 2 minutes to stop other trains being prevented from running. How long would it take to run braking distance up the line, or find track circuit clips and place them? As I said before, the standard now is not to install track circuits in many areas, following US and European practice, and axle counters are installed instead so TC clips are useless.

We could ask 'what ifs?' all day. This equally applies the other way around: What if the guard is drunk, what if there is a line obstruction and no protecting signals for miles, what if its all too late anyway, and there's no chance of protecting the line by any method?

We could also apply 'what ifs?' to other methods of transport. What if a plane comes down on the approach to Heathrow over West London, what if the person ahead of you on motorway is drunk or on drugs, or has poor health and you cannot stop after they swerve off the road or are involved in an accident, what if a the wind gets up a blows a truck onto your car, what if the person fixing your car has done a poor job and the brakes fail?

The thing about 'What ifs' is they don't actually pose any sort of real argument in the real world, where there are many variables we cannot protect against realistically. 'What ifs', unless backed up with reasonable statistics, are a straw man argument, not a point of debate.
 

CarterUSM

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Fair enough. I concede defeat. DOO rules and Guards drool. Seriously, I very much enjoy the debate, my apologies for what if's but accidents rarely happen in such a way that you could act as per the rules or infrastructure would let you. I suppose I should join the driver ranks in due course. Though i'll have to pack a few pounds on first and purchase a travel mug. :)
 

royaloak

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I am waiting for the first accident on a DOO route (with a conductor on board) where the driver is incapacitated and the conductor doesn't protect the train.
You can bet all the usual suspects will come out the woodwork and say how stupid he was not too, when if he did he could have been sacked or be held responsible for any injuries (or damage) as a result of his actions.
Of course they will all then say its ridiculous to only have one safety critical member on the train.
 

Failed Unit

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Meanwhile, I wholeheartedly agree with the views on the RMT, they could gain far more respect and goodwill if they conducted themselves with a little more candour, they can come across as boorish, defensive and insulting, and that is just in the one sentence. :)

I feel that overall is the RMT's biggest problem, the press make them out as dinosaurs that are scared of change. They sometimes have a good point, but a lot of thier disputes which result in strikes are also trival.

In the case of the Scotrail issue for the people that are paying thier members wages and also the ones that are going to be most inconvience they see the arguement from the RMT. Safety is going to be put at risk but not really explaining how (the commutors then think oh that old chestnut again). Scotrail counter the methord of work is already happening on 56% on Scotrail services.

The RMT may have a point, but my point is that they haven't put it accross very well in this case. I know the debate has moved on, but the RMT really need to get thier side of their arguement over better.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I am waiting for the first accident on a DOO route (with a conductor on board) where the driver is incapacitated and the conductor doesn't protect the train.
You can bet all the usual suspects will come out the woodwork and say how stupid he was not too, when if he did he could have been sacked or be held responsible for any injuries (or damage) as a result of his actions.
Of course they will all then say its ridiculous to only have one safety critical member on the train.

While you are waiting 1000's of people will be killed on the roads. I am not belittling the role of the gaurd in anyway but no form of transport can be 100% safe and thankfully accidents are rare. The most recent accidents involving DOO routes have also destroyed track circuits so it hasn't been an issue. If you look at the ECML you can have a train every 3 minutes, it takes a HST 2 minutes to cover 1 mile. It takes me about 8 minutes to run 1 mile. Don't fancy my chances. If you look at Potters Bar, if the gaurd was onboard and got out safe (it was the coach he / she would have been in that was most damaged) there is absolutely no way they could have stopped a train coming in either direction from hitting the wreakage considering the frequency the run on the ECML 10 fast per hour most hours or a train every 6 minutes!

I am afraid it is a cost verses the number of lives lost arguement. I am sure Toyata have looked into this with the recall, how many people will be killed if we don't fix it and is it cheaper to pay them off? To make something 99.9% safe costs a lot of money, people often think how safe can I afford to make it? If we had a big pot of money to remove a risk from the railway I would prefer to spend it on removing the level crossing.
 
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CarterUSM

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Yes, I totally agree, i've been very disappointed in their literature and press quotes, though the company haven't exactly set the heather on fire with their 'economical with the truth approach'. Quips such as 'it's all about who opens and shuts the doors' do their staff a great disservice.
 

Greeny

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I am waiting for the first accident on a DOO route (with a conductor on board) where the driver is incapacitated and the conductor doesn't protect the train.
You can bet all the usual suspects will come out the woodwork and say how stupid he was not too, when if he did he could have been sacked or be held responsible for any injuries (or damage) as a result of his actions.
Of course they will all then say its ridiculous to only have one safety critical member on the train.

Well said - too right they'll be crawling out of the woodwork. Like the argument about 'what if's' - 'what if's' happen every day and have to be dealt with.

G
 

Aictos

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One point though is ticket inspectors aren't safety critical so can't really takeover if the driver is unavailable unlike a guard, I prefer using guard manned services to DOO services as there's no solid promise that a ticket inspector will be on the train but with a guard, there is as the train can't enter service without the guard if I'm right.
I like the safety aspect of having a guard as I know that they can more then deal with any issue, some on here might refer to a few who sit in the back cab and do nothing but that's nothing, you will always get some colleagues who are just lazy regardless - the guards do a great job at the moment and should be retained.

But enough of me for now, the guards or former guards can more then hold their own.
 

Metroland

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The RMT will always argue a point based on protection of jobs, increasing wages and conditions for their members, to a certain extent that's what they do, they are a trade union, albeit a militant one.

Yes, I do have some sympathy with some of Bob Crowe's points about Capitalism can be a race to the bottom and so on, and we need a certain amount of regulation to protect people at work. Most people do not disagree with this, and some of the industrialists I admire the most are the Joseph Rowtree's and George Cadbury's of the world, not the ones that sent little boys up chimneys or had people working 14 hour days for a pittance.

Like Bob Crowe, I am also against off-shoring jobs to save 1p, and believe quality of life and protection of the environment is important, and we should be looking for value and quality, social effects as well as cheapness. I do not agree with leaving everything to markets, and sometimes co-ops or government intervention is better. Though overall, I prefer smaller government and smaller companies. Too much government, too many large companies is repressive, bad for choice, and bad of competition, and dissuades people from looking after themselves in some cases, starting their own small businesses (which make up the majority of the economy) and so on. I also dislike the idea that companies are 'too big to fail', and in cases like this, they should be broken up, or have regulation.

Where I part company with the RMT, is perception based arguments.

Talking about profit v safety, shareholders are greedy and are all fat cats, we deserve more money than entrepreneurs, investors etc or safety scare arguments in order to keep in place outdated working practices, gain extra money, or heavy staffing.

Yes, there are some shareholders and people on the right that are selfish, lazy and greedy, but this also applies to the left. Private companies are often criticised by the RMT because they are all about profit and are almost evil, making money off other people's hard work. Well if you have a pension or own property, to an extent you are doing the same. If only it was run by politicians everything would be wonderful! Who said politicians run things in people's best interests, especially when they are monopolies? It's almost as if the RMT perceive if it was nationalised there would be an endless pot of money. Actually all the evidence is, quite the reverse, transport gets a very low priority in this country.

There was a lot of criticism with the Ladbroke Grove and Hatfield arguments about private companies.

Anyone that was involved in those accidents knows bad management was the root cause, nothing to do with profit v safety. It could have happened with BR or NR, and I point to the Clapham junction and Grayrigg accidents.

Anyway I digress.

The point is there are pros and cons to all these methods of working. If the RMT object to DOO, why not object to older installations of AB signalling? Considering that guards are generally kept as a consequence of the former. There are pros of having staff with local knowledge and people looking for doors open, hot axle boxes and fires every few minutes, but are serious cons with fog and falling snow, safety reliant on spotting tail lamps, and sparse track circuiting and the potential for incorrect working of block instruments. The reason they don't object to Victorian signalling controlling lines, even though I would argue myself it is safe enough (like DOO), is it would cost a lot of jobs.
 
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313103

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If I may, I will take umbrance with that statement. Having not only worked with Gary but also having sat with him after the accident (I remember that morning VERY well), what was said in court was not entirely accurate. And Eli and the kids never really recovered from the stigma.

Yes, his sleep hours may not have been "normal" by anyones standards, but this was a guy who routinely was a 4hrs sleep per night guy. Its the life that comes from running your own civil's/groundworks business. I travelled in that 110 many a time.

Anyone who knows the back story still suspects the trailer. However it was all reasonably destroyed in the collision.

I will gladly defend the man to say that (not a miscarriage of justice) the finger of ultimate blame was pointed in the wrong direction on this occasion.

And i will take umbridge to your statement, having spent many an hour with James Dunn, the son of George Dunn the Freightliner driver killed in same said accident.

At no point did Gary Hart say he was sorry to those famillies who lost loved ones. Mostly railway staff! James and his family have never really recovered either having been very close to his father and one being so young at the time.

So who should the finger of blame lay with then? I suppose that as it happened on a railway, it must be down to the railway.
 

boing_uk

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And i will take umbridge to your statement, having spent many an hour with James Dunn, the son of George Dunn the Freightliner driver killed in same said accident.

At no point did Gary Hart say he was sorry to those famillies who lost loved ones. Mostly railway staff! James and his family have never really recovered either having been very close to his father and one being so young at the time.

So who should the finger of blame lay with then? I suppose that as it happened on a railway, it must be down to the railway.

Mostly rail staff? Four staff. Six commuters. All tragicly killed nontheless.

Really though it was a combination of factors; Gary's standard of driving generally, the repair of the trailer the previous week and the load which was being carried. the CDBDD charge is one that I do not agree with, specifically because the evidence for that was all based on the balance of probabilities that he fell asleep at the wheel. There was no proof that he did. Just a probability.

This was the standpoint of the police pretty much from the outset. He was also accused of lying about falling alseep; none of us in the office could beleive it when that happened as well all knew what Gary was like in this respect.

It was, in actual fact, one of those accidents without a definitive cause which led to the 110 careering off the road and landing up where it did. However in court the prosecution successfully argued that he fell asleep - which given any average persons sleep patterns would be probably correct. With Gary it was not. But there is no way to prove that in reality, so the charge stuck.

I am not saying that the accident was not a tragedy, but in all these cases there is always the desire to blame someone or something. In this case, it was Gary that got blamed. If you know you didnt cause something - regardless of a conviction for it - how do you apologise for it?

For instance, I apologise for dragging this thread off topic. I can apologise, because I caused it to.
 

royaloak

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So if it was the trailer, why were there no skid (or any other) marks and the tyre tracks that were found on the hard shoulder and down the bank were consistant with a vehicle that drifted gently to the left, not pulled to the left by a problem with the trailer. All the available evidence pointed towards him falling asleep and the vehicle drifted gently off the road and down the bank, there were no witnesses to anything different, he had been on the internet most of the night and had rather less than 4 hours sleep, so even by your own remarks he was tired.

Bearing in mind a certain member on this forum I find bringing this incident up, and defending the guilty party, in very bad taste!
 

Aictos

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As to DOO, was there any truth to the rumour that ASLEF accepted DOO on condition that their drivers who work such routes get better pay to make up for the extra responsibities which used part of the guard's job ie doors and the safe keeping of the train?

Just being cynical but even ASLEF said some jobs will go but some will be created which doesn't agree witht the RMT or FSR, FSR stating no job cuts will happen - now ASLEF has accepted the proposed plans from FSR but at what cost?
 

Metroland

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Don't bet on it, they did in BR days. There was a lot of strikes over DOO, in they end they settled when drivers were offered extra money and the system was implemented and all the safety issues magically disappeared. They just tend to rear their heads, when new schemes are proposed. Funny that eh?
 

CarterUSM

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Unions do a lot of things without having a democratic vote. ASLEF have a 'No extension to DOO' policy in their charter. And, officially at least, would prefer to see it reversed. Obviously, this is unlikely to happen. But a DOO supplement was payable in the past, though not now, certainly not with scotrail anyway. All that said however, RMT and national express, when the held the scotrail franchise, agreed a no extension to DOO back in 2001, First state as they did not agree to this then it is not enforceable! I understand the TUPE regulations should apply but First say otherwise. It does look like this will be challenged in court though.
 
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Metroland

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All this will be kicked into touch though after the election when massive anti-union legislation is forced through in order to impose 20-30% cuts in public services. If the railways don't cut their costs, this time next year we shall be discussing what parts of the network are worth maintaining.
 

yorkie

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As to DOO, was there any truth to the rumour that ASLEF accepted DOO on condition that their drivers who work such routes get better pay to make up for the extra responsibities which used part of the guard's job ie doors and the safe keeping of the train?
Quite probably. The responsibilty does bring extra pay and the hassle is over who should get it: drivers or guards. You can bet that the drivers who are against DOO* would be up in arms if their pay went down if they lost that responsibility!
Just being cynical but even ASLEF said some jobs will go but some will be created which doesn't agree witht the RMT or FSR, FSR stating no job cuts will happen - now ASLEF has accepted the proposed plans from FSR but at what cost?
Edinburgh-Bathgate guards can probably be redeployed elsewhere or they could become ticket inspectors on the new route (I suspect they'll be offered some sort of pay protection or pay off package if so). Edinburgh-Bathgate is currently only every 30 minutes, the new service will be more frequent. There can't be a huge number of guards operating this route and 'natural wastage' elsewhere will probably give them all jobs on other lines.

* Note that I am totally against driver only operation in the sense that there is only one member of staff on any train, I believe there should be 2 staff per train, however I do not believe that a guard needs to do the doors, except where the route/stock require it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
All this will be kicked into touch though after the election when massive anti-union legislation is forced through in order to impose 20-30% cuts in public services. If the railways don't cut their costs, this time next year we shall be discussing what parts of the network are worth maintaining.
Well, you can forget any more extensions such as Bathgate-Airdrie now, thanks to the RMT. This extension is bringing many more jobs however because the pay will reduce for a small number of jobs (not the people doing them, as they can be redeployed elsewhere, but it's the principle of it to the RMT) they are kicking up a fuss. Next time it will simply not go ahead. This means less jobs, but the RMT will be happier I guess.

The RMT are hell bent on making rail jobs unaffordable this makes rail uncompetitive and will ultimately force closures and passengers onto the roads. I can only conclude that the RMT would rather have a smaller workforce on higher pay, than protect jobs.
 

O L Leigh

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Metroland: For someone who professes not to be anti-guard or anti-union, you seem to be taking a very hard line.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that we hang on to guards simply for old times sake or that DOO is unsafe. However, having a second member of staff on board adds a layer of safety that CSR/GSM-R does not fully compensate for. As I have said elsewhere online it's simply by comparison. Safe, safer, safest; that sort of thing.

O L Leigh
 

CarterUSM

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Come on now metroland! What a bleak picture you paint of the near future! I'm not so sure union busting laws are required, they've been more or less tamed since the 70's and 80's. Any further crackdown would be construed by many as a waste of legislation. Not that there is any shortage of that. :) not 100 per cent sure either, but sounds like a devolved matter in scotland anyway. To be fair, the scottish executive can be reasonably proud of much of their handling of the railways here, and that is big praise from one who considers it equatable to a parish council.
 

Metroland

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Bleak? Do you realise this country is £800bn in debt and rising, and is about to lose its credit rating which means they government will find it very hard to raise bonds to fund any public services. If you want a demonstration of what happens when economies are mismanaged, go and look at Greece where all those cuts are going through and worse. 20-30% cuts have been publically stated, this implies the railways will have to find similar saving, unless you think they are very special. Anti-union legislation has been proposed. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...82/David-Cameron-ready-to-take-on-unions.html

I've pointed out at length, I don't agree. Guards provide marginal safety benefits at best. I think 2 members of staff should be provided where possible (to collect fares, provide passenger security) but there should be operational flexibility for 1 at times of disruption.

It's not really a question of being anti-guard or anti-union. What sort of simplistic B&W thinking is this? Just because I think strikes are unnecessary in this economic climate and the industry needs to work together to cut costs - for the simple reason if they are not cut we're looking at very draconian measures - that doesn't make me anti-union or anti-guard.

Indeed, I wish the RMT and ASLEF would adopt some long term thinking, because outside the bubble of the railway it is considered an expensive mode of transport long past its sell-by date and offers dubious value. Now I don't necessarily agree with that, and I'm keen put the facts straight. But I cannot defend the indefensible when it comes to safety measures I think are flimsy at best or money grabs during harsh economic times. If I was to do that it would be intellectually dishonest.

The RMT think they are going to fight off cuts by strikes, might I suggest this would be the worst possible thing to do? All it needs to the public say so to force through even more cuts, and ultimately strikes is not going to make them very supportive. Railways do not have the right to exist, they exist because people want to use them, and the public support them. Do not, take it for granted.
 
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CarterUSM

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I'm not sure the RMT, or any of the other unions can be fully blamed for making rail jobs unaffordable, I think privatisation played it's part with large payrises in exchange for conditions and re-structuring. Anyway, I think it is clear that some of us won't agree on this topic, i'm certainly in the guards camp, obviously biased, but having had experience of other roles in the railway, i'd feel the same regardless. Notwithstanding my admittedly selfish view of wishing to preserve my role, that I do rather enjoy, operationally and otherwise.
 

O L Leigh

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Payroll costs are a drop in the ocean. Cutting back on staffing really wouldn't save the operators much at all, especially when the TOC's are working out their subsidy and premium. All you'd do is add to the number of jobless and the financial burden on the country.

O L Leigh
 

Metroland

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Payroll costs are actually over 50% of running the network, when those costs are compounded. As for making people unemployed, tell that to Birmingham City council workers who are facing several thousand redundancies, universities that are cancelling courses left right and centre and so forth. Tell it to the 1000s of NR maintenance staff that are facing redundancy.
 

O L Leigh

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And what difference would that make? Are the TOC's suddenly going to start handing back the savings from expanding DOO further and making a few guards redundant?

O L Leigh
 

CarterUSM

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Interesting story, though it seemed to be threatening possible anti union legislation than actually proposing it. In any case, it's a tight one for the lower house and some time away yet. As you also say, with the possibility of us losing our credit rating, we may have more pressing concerns first and foremost. I have followed greece's plight with interest recently, and noted in one report, I think in the daily mail today, that one of France's oldest banks has more or less said the writing is on the wall for them. A very volatile thing, a 'one size fits any economy' single currency, as the whole Eurozone is finding out. Even the pound is beginning to rally against it. Importantly, however, it is imperative we get our house in order and without delay, though i'm not without a bit of optimism we'll come through slow and steady.
 

Metroland

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Well it all adds up. Speaking to a Pway friend of mine, 14 day faults are already being left for 90 days, in an effort to save money. I strongly suspect the TOCs and NR have been told to look for savings wherever possible, in order to reduce overall costs. The whole thing will of course will be reviewed during the next financial control period when the government decide how much it is willing to pay for, at that stage overall value will be looked at and other measures including: Service reduction, manning reduction, network reduction and moving more of the cost of the railways to the user rather than the public overall. They've already launched a study looking at costs:

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/strategyfinance/valueformoney

As Roger Ford in modern railways recently:

'Overlooked in the excitement of the further electrification schemes in North West England in Chancellor Alistair Darling’s Pre-Budget Statement on December 9, was the parallel announcement of a joint study by the Department for Transport and the Office of Rail Regulation ‘examining ways to improve value for money’ in the railway sector.

This is all very early 1980s and, I suspect, reflects the view within the Department of Transport that the current cost of the railway is ‘unsustainable’. The new study will examine the ‘overall cost structure of all elements of the railway sector’ with the aim of identifying options for ‘improving value for money to passengers and the taxpayer while continuing to expand capacity as necessary and drive up passenger satisfaction’.

A scoping study is promised by the end of March 2010 with the inquisition staring work after the election. Note that the study will be expected to make ‘recommendations’. Worrying.'

--

Leading economists say the government lacks a credible plan to cut Britain’s budget deficit and that action to reduce the country’s borrowing should start immediately after the election.

In an endorsement of the Conservatives’ position and an attack on Labour — although the economists insist they are non-partisan — they warn that a failure to act could trigger a loss of confidence that could push up interest rates, undermine the pound and threaten the recovery.

The budget warning comes as an investigation by The Sunday Times has discovered that half of Britain’s 30 biggest firms have studied shifting their tax base offshore, with some saying they are actively considering a move.

Kenneth Clarke, the shadow business secretary, warned yesterday that the next government would have to introduce tougher spending cuts than any recent administration.

“The level of cuts we are contemplating will probably exceed those of any modern government,” he said. “We are going to have to be much tougher on public spending than Margaret Thatcher ever was.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article7026365.ece
 
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CarterUSM

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50 per cent? I am surprised at that figure! Well, we'll need to get that down, otherwise Firstgroups record profits will take a tumble. They are all on easy street and everyone knows it! How about we cut the subsidies by 30 per cent? It's a start. :)
 

O L Leigh

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I don't have a lot of confidence in the DfT and ORR together finding real and effective ways of ensuring value for money on the railways. It's a bit like asking a Victorian mill owner to compile a report on the welfare of children working in factories. The entire apparatus by which the railways are operated and funded needs a full and independent audit.

For example, the role of the ROSCO's bears closer examination together with the cost of leasing rolling stock. Equally, the practice of government bailing out TOC's in times of industrial unrest is counter-productive as it provides no incentive for them to reach a negotiated agreement quickly and avoid disruptive action, and is also expensive for the taxpayer. Fussy micro-management by the DfT also incurs costs that could be removed by implementing a different regulatory model based on longer franchises, giving the TOC's greater "ownership" of their patch and encouraging more innovation and investment.

I've said before that the rail industry operates on different rules to other private enterprise. Government guaranteeing the income of private train operators has to stop. As it stands at the moment any savings made by the operators are simply shown as profit because there is no mechanism to pass those savings back to the public purse. There has to be a better way of ensuring the current level of service, growth and satisfaction without spending such large amounts of cash.

I'm afraid that I do not believe that curtailing the activities of the unions will achieve that. If anything, a new wave of anti-union legislation would give me great cause for concern because the unions fulfil a useful role in protecting those working conditions that ensure safety. Without them there would be no bulwark against the full excesses of the TOC's. However, if there is a role for the unions and, by extension, the workforce in ensuring the continued success of the industry, then Government really needs to be getting them onboard with the TOC's right at the start and being completely open and transparent about what is planned. If staff felt a little more like they actually had a stake in what they are doing for a living then they might be more inclined to do their bit to help. Clamping down on them would only serve to alienate the workforce and result in widespread unrest.

But while the workforce stays in it's current form, pays tax and buys widescreen tellies it is contributing to the economy in a meaningful way. Job losses just add to the burden on the economy, even if they do mean that the private company for which they worked before remains profitable.

O L Leigh
 
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