Guard/Driver Bells and Buzzers

[GordonT]

Still on the theme of guard/driver communication, do units in current service have a modern equivalent of the 'Loudaphone' enabling guard and driver to converse?

 

[WirralLine]

Still on the theme of guard/driver communication, do units in current service have a modern equivalent of the 'Loudaphone' enabling guard and driver to converse?

All the units I work have cab to cab communication using the PA handset. The CAFs I work have handsets in the saloon panels too which can be used to make PAs, communicate with driver and answer call for aid activations. The 175s also had driver call and PA headsets at the saloon door panels but very hit and miss if they worked.

 

[Efini92]

Still on the theme of guard/driver communication, do units in current service have a modern equivalent of the 'Loudaphone' enabling guard and driver to converse?

The voyagers have something similar.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Still on the theme of guard/driver communication, do units in current service have a modern equivalent of the 'Loudaphone' enabling guard and driver to converse?

Yes,certainly those that were not built for solely DOO use.

 

[godfreycomplex]

The voyagers have something similar.

Famously the microphone on those is on whenever a key is in the guards’ “panel”, and more than one unwitting guard has been caught red handed complaining about the driver with the driver intently listening!

Still on the theme of guard/driver communication, do units in current service have a modern equivalent of the 'Loudaphone' enabling guard and driver to converse?

All of them, I believe it’s some species of group standard to have voice communication of some sort between driver and guard (walkie talkies etc are permitted)

 

[irish_rail]

The "buzz" on the 80x fleet is extremely loud, harsh and coarse. A driver chatting in the messroom the other day reckons he is starting to suffer hearing loss in his right ear as a result! I have to admit some sets are particularly loud , and most volume levels vary from set to set. I'd be interested if other 80x drivers at other TOCs (LNER, Avanti etc) also have the same horribly loud buzz?

 

[Efini92]

Famously the microphone on those is on whenever a key is in the guards’ “panel”, and more than one unwitting guard has been caught red handed complaining about the driver with the driver intently listening!

Ha ha it’s not just them slagging off the driver. Normally as the gossip gets juicy they key out.

 

[godfreycomplex]

Ha ha it’s not just them slagging off the driver. Normally as the gossip gets juicy they key out.

Well that’s just not cricket is it

 

[800301]

The "buzz" on the 80x fleet is extremely loud, harsh and coarse. A driver chatting in the messroom the other day reckons he is starting to suffer hearing loss in his right ear as a result! I have to admit some sets are particularly loud , and most volume levels vary from set to set. I'd be interested if other 80x drivers at other TOCs (LNER, Avanti etc) also have the same horribly loud buzz?

I too find it horrible, some are worse than others I’m sure some have been ‘modified’ by drivers…

It should come with a volume adjust along with the AWS bell and DSD alarm

 

[pokemonsuper9]

769 - ?

Pretty sure these are bells (especially with 319s also being so)

 

[Scotrail84]

Ah interesting! Wonder if that's a legacy of their original Nightstar role?

The jumper cables do exist, they just don't work correctly. They cause more harm than good and haven't been used for about 3/4 years now. They had a tendency to fall out or create ghost faults or something.

 

[craigybagel]

I've never signed stock with bells, only buzzers and beeps (and briefly with MKIIIs and 67s - flags and lamps only). I've always wondered about emergency stops on stock with bells - surely a single bell isn't going to be anywhere near as effective as a loud long BZZZZZZZZ on a Sprinter until you feel the brakes kick in.....

I guess the 334s and 460s probably have the same beep too.

I seem to recall the 334s were designed in such a way that they can't be worked any way other than DOO.

All the units I work have cab to cab communication using the PA handset. The CAFs I work have handsets in the saloon panels too which can be used to make PAs, communicate with driver and answer call for aid activations. The 175s also had driver call and PA headsets at the saloon door panels but very hit and miss if they worked.

Those buttons in the saloon panels on the 175s were a nightmare - usually filthy, hot to the rich, and you never knew if the driver had any idea if you were trying to call them or not! One advantage with 197s - there's no missing any attempted communication with them....

Pretty sure these are bells (especially with 319s also being so)

Can confirm from cab rides that 769s are bells in the cabs. Not sure about the intermediate panels.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Can confirm from cab rides that 769s are bells in the cabs. Not sure about the intermediate panels.

I think I've only heard bells and guards up here use intermediate pannels.

 

[Scotrail84]

I've never signed stock with bells, only buzzers and beeps (and briefly with MKIIIs and 67s - flags and lamps only). I've always wondered about emergency stops on stock with bells - surely a single bell isn't going to be anywhere near as effective as a loud long BZZZZZZZZ on a Sprinter until you feel the brakes kick in.....

I seem to recall the 334s were designed in such a way that they can't be worked any way other than DOO.


Those buttons in the saloon panels on the 175s were a nightmare - usually filthy, hot to the rich, and you never knew if the driver had any idea if you were trying to call them or not! One advantage with 197s - there's no missing any attempted communication with them....

Can confirm from cab rides that 769s are bells in the cabs. Not sure about the intermediate panels.

334s definitely have green signal bell buttons as well as a spring loaded DKS in the cabs but I do not know if they are wired up.

 

[stadler]

Northern line 1980s one bell to start I think, although my memory should not be relied upon!

EDIT District Dave's forum (https://districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/26782/guards-starting-signal) confirms:

and goes on to say that was the only defined bell code.

Ah yes i remember seeing Guards just give one bell on London Underground trains. From what i remember the Driver never repeated the bell so the Guard just simply gave one bell and the train departed.

I wonder if the Waterloo & City Line used different bell codes to the other London Underground lines seeing as it was part of the British Rail network. I would not be surprised if they used the standard mainline bell code with Guards giving two bells.

380s are beeps in cabs and panels

385s is a buzzer in the cab and a buzzy sounding beep in the saloon panel.

ScotRail 156 are beeps in cabs and centre panels

ScotRail 158s are beeps in the cab but buzzers in the centre

ScotRail 170s are beeps in cabs (401-424 470/471)
425 onwards are all buzzers in the cabs.
All 170 saloon panels are beeps

ScotRail HSTs are all beeps in the coaches, assuming cabs are as well.

From what i remember Scotrail specifically changed the 156s and 158s to be beeps for some reason. I think they were entirely buzzers when they were built. I would be curious to know why they decided to do that. Presumably it was when the units were refurbished.

MK5s (sleeper) are very loud beeps at panels but are not used. Dispatch is done via 2 way radios

That is very interesting to hear that the 92s have bell buttons. I presumed that there were no locomotives that had bells. Are there any other locomotives with bells? I wonder if perhaps the 67/68/88/93/99 have been built with bell buttons too as these are newer and some have worked passenger trains?

Also have any trains other than locomotives been built without bells? So are there any multiple units without bells? Even trains like the 345/700/710/717 which have always been DOO have bell buttons. So it makes me wonder if we do actually have any multiple units without bell or buzz or beep buttons on them.

No, theres no jumper cable at present to provide comms between guard/driver, the 92s have buzzers in the cabs though. (if they still work)

That is interesting that they use radios. I had always presumed it was flags like the Night Riviera sleeper. Out of interest how does despatch with two way radios works? So they simply just tell the driver that the train is ready to depart? Or is there specific phrases they have to say? Presumably they have flags or torches as backups in case the radios fail?

I find the MK5s have so many oddities. They also have very odd door control panels that have no buttons to open or close the doors. So the Guard operates the doors simply by turning the key switch to certain positions. The bell is the only button on the panel.

The "buzz" on the 80x fleet is extremely loud, harsh and coarse. A driver chatting in the messroom the other day reckons he is starting to suffer hearing loss in his right ear as a result! I have to admit some sets are particularly loud , and most volume levels vary from set to set. I'd be interested if other 80x drivers at other TOCs (LNER, Avanti etc) also have the same horribly loud buzz?

That is a very loud buzz sound even in the saloon. It is louder than the Sprinter trains and some of them can be very loud. I am always surprised that the 80X trains have a loud buzz sound. Especially as this sound is associated with DMUs so it seems odd that they used it. I think the 323s are a buzz in the cab panels (and a beep in the saloon panels) but other than that hearing a buzz on EMUs is quite rare.

Pretty sure these are bells (especially with 319s also being so)

Is that even on the retrofitted saloon panels? I know that the 319s make a bell sound on the original cab panels but i thought that the more recently fitted saloon panels on the 319s and 769s might make a beep sound at least on some units?

On the subject does anyone remember what sound the saloon panels on the recently withdrawn 313s made? I know that the cab panels were bells but again some retrofitted panels can be different? Although i think the panels were made by EAO who also made the Electrostar panels. So it could well still be a bell.

I guess the 165s and 166s may also make a different sound on their retrofitted saloon panels? I know the cab is a buzz sound but i have not seen the saloon panels used (on the North Downs line i use the Guard always stays in the cab) so i wonder if they make a beep instead?

Also can i ask does anyone know how do the 777s work and do they have bells on them? From what i understand the Guard scans their key fob or something like that at the panel by the door? Does this play a bell or buzz or beep sound? Or does it simply show a light in the cab for the driver?

Another interesting thing is that some trains play the bell or buzz or beep sound at every panel throughout the train. While others only play it at the panel that the Guard is at. For example on the 444s and 450s and 707s you can hear the sound playing at every panel throughout the train. But the majority of other classes only play it at the panel the Guard is using.

I've never signed stock with bells, only buzzers and beeps (and briefly with MKIIIs and 67s - flags and lamps only). I've always wondered about emergency stops on stock with bells - surely a single bell isn't going to be anywhere near as effective as a loud long BZZZZZZZZ on a Sprinter until you feel the brakes kick in.....

I seem to recall the 334s were designed in such a way that they can't be worked any way other than DOO.


Those buttons in the saloon panels on the 175s were a nightmare - usually filthy, hot to the rich, and you never knew if the driver had any idea if you were trying to call them or not! One advantage with 197s - there's no missing any attempted communication with them....

Can confirm from cab rides that 769s are bells in the cabs. Not sure about the intermediate panels.

If it is a loud bell than emergency stops should work fine. Just over a month ago i saw a Guard on a train departing Imperial Wharf station ring the bell once to do an emergency stop when some kids started running right along the train very close to the edge and trying to race it along the platform as it departed and seeing how close they were they could have easily slipped and gone under the train. As soon as the Guard gave one on the bell the Driver applied the brakes. I think a bigger issue is probably the units with a beeper as a short beep sound might not be as effective. Many of them are not really a distinctive sound like a bell or buzz and could possibly be confused with another sound.

I never knew that the 175s had saloon panels. I have never seen a Guard use them. I have travelled on hundreds of them over the years and they always seem to use the cab. If they are the same as the 180s than i presume the saloon panels have no door release buttons so i guess they can only be used to close doors.

I think I've only heard bells and guards up here use intermediate pannels.

Maybe it varies by unit but i am almost certain i have heard beep sounds from the saloon panels. I have also had a quick look on Youtube now and found two videos where beeps can definitely be heard. So at least some of the 319s and 769s have beeps at the saloon panels. But it could well be like the 156s and 158s and 170s where different units have different sounds so perhaps some have bells.

 

[Scotrail84]

Ah yes i remember seeing Guards just give one bell on London Underground trains. From what i remember the Driver never repeated the bell so the Guard just simply gave one bell and the train departed.

I wonder if the Waterloo & City Line used different bell codes to the other London Underground lines seeing as it was part of the British Rail network. I would not be surprised if they used the standard mainline bell code with Guards giving two bells.


From what i remember Scotrail specifically changed the 156s and 158s to be beeps for some reason. I think they were entirely buzzers when they were built. I would be curious to know why they decided to do that. Presumably it was when the units were refurbished.


That is very interesting to hear that the 92s have bell buttons. I presumed that there were no locomotives that had bells. Are there any other locomotives with bells? I wonder if perhaps the 67/68/88/93/99 have been built with bell buttons too as these are newer and some have worked passenger trains?

Also have any trains other than locomotives been built without bells? So are there any multiple units without bells? Even trains like the 345/700/710/717 which have always been DOO have bell buttons. So it makes me wonder if we do actually have any multiple units without bell or buzz or beep buttons on them.


That is interesting that they use radios. I had always presumed it was flags like the Night Riviera sleeper. Out of interest how does despatch with two way radios works? So they simply just tell the driver that the train is ready to depart? Or is there specific phrases they have to say? Presumably they have flags or torches as backups in case the radios fail?

I find the MK5s have so many oddities. They also have very odd door control panels that have no buttons to open or close the doors. So the Guard operates the doors simply by turning the key switch to certain positions. The bell is the only button on the panel.


That is a very loud buzz sound even in the saloon. It is louder than the Sprinter trains and some of them can be very loud. I am always surprised that the 80X trains have a loud buzz sound. Especially as this sound is associated with DMUs so it seems odd that they used it. I think the 323s are a buzz in the cab panels (and a beep in the saloon panels) but other than that hearing a buzz on EMUs is quite rare.


Is that even on the retrofitted saloon panels? I know that the 319s make a bell sound on the original cab panels but i thought that the more recently fitted saloon panels on the 319s and 769s might make a beep sound at least on some units?

On the subject does anyone remember what sound the saloon panels on the recently withdrawn 313s made? I know that the cab panels were bells but again some retrofitted panels can be different? Although i think the panels were made by EAO who also made the Electrostar panels. So it could well still be a bell.

I guess the 165s and 166s may also make a different sound on their retrofitted saloon panels? I know the cab is a buzz sound but i have not seen the saloon panels used (on the North Downs line i use the Guard always stays in the cab) so i wonder if they make a beep instead?

Also can i ask does anyone know how do the 777s work and do they have bells on them? From what i understand the Guard scans their key fob or something like that at the panel by the door? Does this play a bell or buzz or beep sound? Or does it simply show a light in the cab for the driver?

Another interesting thing is that some trains play the bell or buzz or beep sound at every panel throughout the train. While others only play it at the panel that the Guard is at. For example on the 444s and 450s and 707s you can hear the sound playing at every panel throughout the train. But the majority of other classes only play it at the panel the Guard is using.


If it is a loud bell than emergency stops should work fine. Just over a month ago i saw a Guard on a train departing Imperial Wharf station ring the bell once to do an emergency stop when some kids started running right along the train very close to the edge and trying to race it along the platform as it departed and seeing how close they were they could have easily slipped and gone under the train. As soon as the Guard gave one on the bell the Driver applied the brakes. I think a bigger issue is probably the units with a beeper as a short beep sound might not be as effective. Many of them are not really a distinctive sound like a bell or buzz and could possibly be confused with another sound.

I never knew that the 175s had saloon panels. I have never seen a Guard use them. I have travelled on hundreds of them over the years and they always seem to use the cab. If they are the same as the 180s than i presume the saloon panels have no door release buttons so i guess they can only be used to close doors.


Maybe it varies by unit but i am almost certain i have heard beep sounds from the saloon panels. I have also had a quick look on Youtube now and found two videos where beeps can definitely be heard. So at least some of the 319s and 769s have beeps at the saloon panels. But it could well be like the 156s and 158s and 170s where different units have different sounds so perhaps some have bells.

It could have been something to do with refurbishment but the buzzer units in cabs could be quite unreliable on these units, they'd sometimes not work at all or they sound like they were distorted and fitters we forever coming round with screwdrivers and cans of compressed air to try and clean them up of debris and adjust them so contacts could be made. All 158 and 156 cabs were changed to beeps as well as 170 401-424 and 470/471 which I think are the first gen turbos and they all had buzzer units the same as the 156/158 at one time. 425-456/472-478 all still have buzzers in cabs but they are completely different to the original turbos. The buzzers on these units are on the 2nd mans side inside the destination screen panel and volume and sound levels vary.

When the sleeper was slam door stock it would have been easy to dispatch with flags and lamps given the guard could lean out the window to signal to the driver or dispatch staff could relay the RTS signal to the driver but that ability would have been lost when power door stock came in. As for specific phrases regarding dispatch via radio I can't help you there but a clear understanding must be reached between driver and guard for a safe dispatch to take place as per rule book.

The MK5 sleeper door control panels are completely non standard to most other rolling stock then, most other stock have door release/door close buttons. I wonder if the transpennine/Northern MK5 variants are the same?

Just a point about guards working doors from the cab. Technically it's the safest place to work doors, assuming the guard can clearly see both ends of their train and any associated platform starting signals clearly. The pull down window (assuming the stock has it) gives the guard a very good view of their dispatch corridor when leaving a platform as well making it easy to spot any potential hazards or late runners. Being at a saloon door severely restricts your view at times. Working doors from cabs is definitely frowned upon by some TOCs though.

 

[chuff chuff]

All 158 and 156 cabs were changed to beeps as well as 170 401-424 and 470/471 which I think are the first gen turbos and they all had buzzer units the same as the 156/158 at one time. 425-456/472-478 all still have buzzers in cabs but they are completely different to the original turbos.

There was a time when some of the 170s cabs had what only could be described as a loud 'honk',bloody awful they were and gave you a bit of a start first time.

 

[Scotrail84]

There was a time when some of the 170s cabs had what only could be described as a loud 'honk',bloody awful they were and gave you a bit of a start first time.

Some of them still do have very loud buzzers, the newer turbos only though, 425 onwards.

 

[Kneedown]

I've always wondered about emergency stops on stock with bells - surely a single bell isn't going to be anywhere near as effective as a loud long BZZZZZZZZ on a Sprinter until you feel the brakes kick in.....

Our 360s have a "Ping" sound, but if you keep your finger on the button, it becomes a series of pings, sounding similar to a submarine's sonar.
Obviously a single "Ping" isn't going to grab your attention straight away, so Train Managers just hit the emergency brake plunger, or pull a Pass-Comm if they need to stop you in an emergency.

 

[craigybagel]

334s definitely have green signal bell buttons as well as a spring loaded DKS in the cabs but I do not know if they are wired up.

Interesting. It may well be a wiring issue. I'm sure I read it somewhere that 334s as they are now can't be used for anything but DOO but I don't think there's ever been a need to anyway. I did think it would be odd not to install bell buttons given all the other Alsthom units from that era have them.

That is very interesting to hear that the 92s have bell buttons. I presumed that there were no locomotives that had bells. Are there any other locomotives with bells? I wonder if perhaps the 67/68/88/93/99 have been built with bell buttons too as these are newer and some have worked passenger trains?

TfW's 67s have bell buttons, that sound a very loud beep in the cab. These were retrofitted at some point. The MKIIIs were dispatched by flag and lamp (or RA wherever possible) but since the swap to MKIVs the bells are used instead, and RA only at Manchester.

Also have any trains other than locomotives been built without bells? So are there any multiple units without bells? Even trains like the 345/700/710/717 which have always been DOO have bell buttons. So it makes me wonder if we do actually have any multiple units without bell or buzz or beep buttons on them.

Most modern stock is built to be future proof for either method of work. Hence new guarded trains featuring DOO cameras, and at least some DOO units have some form of bell buzzer.

I think a bigger issue is probably the units with a beeper as a short beep sound might not be as effective. Many of them are not really a distinctive sound like a bell or buzz and could possibly be confused with another sound.

Everything I've worked with a beeper you can hold the button and have it beep for a long time. On 175s it would die off after a few seconds, but on 197s and MKIVs as far as I know you can have beeps as long as you want

I never knew that the 175s had saloon panels. I have never seen a Guard use them. I have travelled on hundreds of them over the years and they always seem to use the cab. If they are the same as the 180s than i presume the saloon panels have no door release buttons so i guess they can only be used to close doors.

As built they didn't have open buttons, only close, but ATW retrofitted full panels there. They were a bit of a faff to use, and as someone else pointed out the rear can of normally a better place to see what is going on, but they were useful on busier trains.

Our 360s have a "Ping" sound, but if you keep your finger on the button, it becomes a series of pings, sounding similar to a submarine's sonar.
Obviously a single "Ping" isn't going to grab your attention straight away, so Train Managers just hit the emergency brake plunger, or pull a Pass-Comm if they need to stop you in an emergency.

As above, our beep units will keep beeping for a while. But agreed, if you're on a more modern unit that has some form of brake to hand, that's always the most effective way to stop in a hurry!

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Is that even on the retrofitted saloon panels? I know that the 319s make a bell sound on the original cab panels but i thought that the more recently fitted saloon panels on the 319s and 769s might make a beep sound at least on some units?

I didn't know the saloon panels were recently fitted, all I can say is I only remember hearing bells, and Northern Guards use the saloon pannels.
I'll try to confirm next time I'm near a departing 769.