GTR Timetable consultation.

[Failed Unit]

I have seen this topic pop up in a few threads, but as a result it the discussion is more focused on the area.

Here is a link to the GTR timetable consultation - in case you haven't seen it.

http://www.thameslinkrailway.com/download/12366.9/timetable-consultation/

From my neck of the woods a few interesting observations.

Peterborough services all running non-stop between Stevenage and Finsbury Park. Don't think this will go down well unless we see some changes to the ECML stopping at stevenage (which also appear to be less rather than more). A lot of people at places like Welwyn / Hatfield change at Peterborough for ECML expresses. Changing at Stevenage / Hitchin is not a hardship, waiting 23 minutes for a connection is. The change via St Pancras / King Cross will be worse than the present one with lots of baggage.

Welwyn North getting 4tph in the peak??? I am amazed Network Rail are happy about that. Doesn't Welwyn north take 2 paths up? I guess it is possible that the class 700s will be able to accelerate faster an may make this not as bad but I a speculating that as these stops will be in the Kings Cross - Royston service, these will continue to be 365 formed.

I will be interested to see how they construct the timetable - Welwyn North is a constriant and with the importance of right time, hopefully some padding will be allowed at Welwyn Garden City / Stevenage to recover from small delays.

On passenger flows it will be interesting. I use WGC now, typically end up at Moorgate with a change at Finsbury Park. When cross rail opens I will have the choice of using Thameslink and walking from a core station, Using a fast train and getting on the tube at Farrington (or even cross-rail). I will test all of these, I know they have clever software but I wonder if loadings into moorgate will drop? (which won't be a bad thing for people at places like New Barnet who will be glad to see the back of people from further up the line that could use the fast trains but don't as we can't board at finsbury part if we do onto the Moorgate line)

 

[crazystripe]

The consultation document separates GN Mainline (i.e. to Kings Cross) with the Thameslink services (i.e. to St Pancras).

It looks like Biggleswade, in particular, benefits from a much-improved "fast" peak service to/from KX, compared to what's currently offered. Today, there are fast departures from Biggs at 6.47 (stopping at Stevenage and KX) and 7.57 (non-stop KX) in the morning, and then in the evening peak, pretty much only the 18.40 departure from KX (non-stop to Biggleswade). From 2018, it seems that there will be 6 peak "fast" services both morning and evening. Whilst this seems great, I'm interested to know whether these are genuinely "new" services, or whether there is just a change to the stopping patterns of existing fast services (most of which are first stop Hitchin or St Neots when leaving KX) which would mean there will be some passengers whose "fast" services become somewhat slower (i.e. all services will now call Stevenage and Biggleswade before St Neots, and none will call at Hitchin). Any thoughts?

 

[Failed Unit]

My interpretation is most of the "mainline services" are as they are not.

Most hours in the peak we have.
x10 / x40 Peterborough (various stopping patterns but faster than most - will remain in KX)
x13 / x43 Peterborough (finsbury park & Stevenage) - will move to thameslink and be in the regular interval timetable.
x14 / x44 Cambridge and beyond - will stay at kings cross seems like it will lose Letchworth and Royston stops.
x22 / x52 Cambridge slow (drops off coaches on the way) - will move to thameslink and be part of regular interval timetable. (I wonder if this will stop at potters bar)
x23 / x53 Royston fairly fast - will stay at kings cross, sometimes stops at Welwyn North now, but if the x14 / x44 remains fast to cambridge the same will it absorb displaced Letchworth / Royston passengers in the peak. Can it be 12 cars (not if it stops at Welwyn north)
x28 / x58 Welwyn Garden City "semi fast" - which will move to Thameslink core.

So we also need to fit in the regular interval - Thameslink - Cambridge which will be a boost to great northern peak capacity. Which may also assist the removal of Letchworth and Royston from the express cambridge in the peak. It may also be possible to stop the cambrige slow at potters bar as I suspect a lot of passengers heading to Stevenage and beyone will avoid these like the plague.

platforms 9 - 11 will be quiet at KX - I wonder if we will see the 5 car IEPs in them.

 

[petersi]

The other interesting think is on page 68 they define evening as Start at 19:00 to 22:00 currently the peak time table extends until 20:00.
I do not see how one train an hour from 19:00 from St Pancras will work
According table tl7

 

[Failed Unit]

The other interesting think is on page 68 they define evening as Start at 19:00 to 22:00 currently the peak time table extends until 20:00.
I do not see how one train an hour from 19:00 from St Pancras will work
According table tl7

Niether do I - hoping that the will fill in with a kings cross - letchworth, but they may think that 4 per hour on the metro is good enough.

 

[Class 170101]

platforms 9 - 11 will be quiet at KX - I wonder if we will see the 5 car IEPs in them.

Stick Hull Trains, Grand Central, Grand Northern in them. I imagine the Kings Cross to Cambridge / Peterborough services will fit except for 12 car formations.

 

[philjo]

The survey is rather long (85 questions) !

I can't see that many GN users too bothered about the changes south of the river and vice versa - maybe it would have been better to have a separate response form for GN users and another for those south of the river (to eliminate those that would just tick yes/no at random for questions that don't really affect them)?

I assume the Royston peaks would be 8 coaches so would use platforms 9-11, The length is not specified in the service pattern. Ashwell & morden, Baldock and Welwyn North would only be 8 coach platforms.

I can't see the 23 minute connection at Stevenage being popular for those changing from Peterborough line stations to Welwyn etc. I know several people from Arlesey, Biggleswade etc that currently have a 5/6 min connection in the mornings at Hitchin - they work in Hatfield or Potters Bar.

Is there a sample timetable for peak/off peak - I couldn't see one.
it would be useful to see how the connections work - e.g. with Hertford trains at Stevenage. (though just seen the bit about the bus replacement Stevenage to watton at stone until they get the extra platform in at Stevenage)

 

[Hadders]

I have two issues with the proposals on the GN (or TL as it will become):

The removal of trains between Stevenage and Watton at Stone is unacceptable unless there is clear line of sight on when the additional platform at Stevenage will be built.

Requiring a change of trains for passengers between Potters Bar/Hatfield/Welwyn Garden City/Welwyn North/Knebworth and Arlesey/Biggleswage/Sandy/St Neots/Huntingdon is also far from ideal, particularly with an 8/23 minute connection time.

A way needs to be found to keep a direct link to Peterborough and if this genuinely isn't possible then the connection time at Stevenage (or Hitchin) needs to be 4 minutes (as it currently the case).

 

[Class377/5]

There is already a thread for the consultation that's been fairly active.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=131730&page=20

 

[crazystripe]

It's probably worth pointing out that at present, there are no direct trains between St Neots/Huntingdon/Sandy/Biggs/Arlesey and stations south of Stevenage (e.g. WGC, Hatfield etc) in the morning peak and vice versa in the evening peak. Off peak, one TPH gives direct connections and the other TPH is semi-fast.

 

[Failed Unit]

No timetables yet. They are expected next year.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There is already a thread for the consultation that's been fairly active.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=131730&page=20

May be worth merging the threads - that ones title is implied to me it was about Kent and didn't want to add the northern route to that discussion in case it was viewed as off-topic.

 

[ScotGG]

Anyone know if the Gillingham to Charing Cross via Lewisham is axed for the Thameslink service? Heard conflicting messages.

No mention at all. How can we comment with no info on Southeastern services also being available?

Other weird things - no calling at Woolwich Dockyard as 11 car platforms. 700s have SDO!

 

[Barn]

Anyone know if the Gillingham to Charing Cross via Lewisham is axed for the Thameslink service? Heard conflicting messages.

No mention at all. How can we comment with no info on Southeastern services also being available?

Other weird things - no calling at Woolwich Dockyard as 11 car platforms. 700s have SDO!

Only guesswork, but I would think that yes, the new TL service would take the place of the Gillingham via Dartford service. However, I would be surprised if there were not some form of service to Charing Cross via Charlton and Blackheath.

If I had to guess, I would imagine that:

- The 6tph Cannon Street stopping service via Greenwich reduces to 4tph.

- A new 2tph service to Charing Cross is introduced; service pattern unknown.

- The TL service tops up Deptford, Greenwich, Maze Hill and Westcombe Park to their current 6tph and Charlton, Woolwich Arsenal and Abbey Wood to their current 8tph. It looks like Plumstead and Slade Green might get an upgrade to this level of service too, unless Southeastern deleted stops from their services.

 

[A0]

It looks pretty crap for GN.

So Welwyn GC, Hatfield will still be suffering a vastly inferior service when compared to Harpenden, St Albans or Radlett.

Still only an hourly Sunday service which is a joke - that should be every 30 mins.

And the Monday - Friday service should be up to at least every 20 mins.

Feels like Thameslink 2000 is the thin end of the wedge for GN. And will be when reliability suffers when the core goes tits up.

 

[Failed Unit]

Interesting point Philjo raise. I will fill in the survey later in the week. The only bit I can really comment on is great northern, so i will put in no preference for other areas. (Or no comment). Good way of forcing through unpopular changes as i can't and won't comment on services which i don't use and GTR will say out of all the proposals on a low % objected and the majority declined to comment.

 

[MrB]

Anyone know if the Gillingham to Charing Cross via Lewisham is axed for the Thameslink service? Heard conflicting messages.

No mention at all. How can we comment with no info on Southeastern services also being available?

Other weird things - no calling at Woolwich Dockyard as 11 car platforms. 700s have SDO!

This was mentioned in a recent London Reconnections article on the subject, some very interesting information here http://www.londonreconnections.com/2016/govia-go-via-greenwich/

 

[philjo]

It looks pretty crap for GN.

So Welwyn GC, Hatfield will still be suffering a vastly inferior service when compared to Harpenden, St Albans or Radlett.

Still only an hourly Sunday service which is a joke - that should be every 30 mins.

And the Monday - Friday service should be up to at least every 20 mins.

Feels like Thameslink 2000 is the thin end of the wedge for GN. And will be when reliability suffers when the core goes tits up.

I Agree with this.

It should still be half hourly on the outer stoppers on Sundays - hourly would not cope if Arsenal are playing at home that day ! Maybe an additional outer stopper could run on Sundays Kings Cross to Letchworth so it is still half hourly via Welwyn.

The lack of info regarding how long Hertford buses could be replaced by buses is not acceptable.
Maybe as an interim until Stevenage 5th platform is open:
One of the Semi-fasts per hour could be diverted via Hertford calling at Watton at stone, Hertford North (& possibly Enfield Chase)
Use of SDO presumably would allow this (or maybe just Hertford North needs extending)
some benefits - through service maintained to Hertford from Hitchin & Stevenage - no increase in no of trains on the slows Hitchin to Stevenage.
Hertford (& possibly Enfield Chase) gain a fast service onto Thameslink rather than everything as stoppers to Moorgate.
Easier access to Hertford from the North - same platform change each way at Hitchin or Stevenage.

A couple of options:
either one of the Cambridge -semi fasts in which case the ely fast train in the same half hour could call at Royston & Letchworth to compensate for the slower run via Hertford ( also giving Royston/Letchworth an hourly Kings Cross alternative).
GTR say there isn't room to run the Hertford services to/from Stevenage (blocking platfrom 4 too long) or Letchworth (now 6tph though there each way). As the Peterborough slow lines are still only 2tph a better option may be is could a Hertford train run to Peterborough or the bay at Huntingdon (wold then be 8 coach which is OK at Hertford North) - it might also have a better connection at Stevenage with the Welwyn trains. a semi-fast via Hertford gives Huntingdon/Peterborough an extra train without any conflicts at Welwyn north. or run it as a separate Huntingdon to Kings cross via Hertford service (givng Hertford a Kings cross option).

Another option (I think this may be better as Peterborough line retains a direct Welwyn train):
One of the Thameslink GN stoppers via Welwyn would continue to Peterborough or Huntingdon instead of Cambridge.
The service that would have started from Cambridge now runs Cambridge, all stations to Stevenage then limited stop from Stevenage via Hertford to Kings Cross.


Could one of the semi-fasts call additionally at Welwyn GC (would need to use SDO at Welwyn) - allows direct access to Welwyn & connection onto Moorgate services. WGC also then gets a fast service non-stop to finsbury Park.



Other points of note:

I see that the Cambridge semi-fasts no longer list Baldock as a calling point - can't see that being popular! It was always stated previously that Baldock would retain their semi-fast services.
I still think one of the stoppers per hour shoud maybe terminate at Letchworth & one semi-fast call Baldock & Ashwell ?.
That would still be 3tph to Cambridge from Stevenage. then there is one train per hour we can rely on to start on time from Letchworth each time there is a bridge bash at Baldock (most weeks it seems) or one of the level crossings in Cambridgeshire has a problem causing a queue of the other 5 trains per hour along the line.


Letchworth & Royston currently get the half hourly non-stop service home from Kings cross on weekday evenings and late on Saturdays on the fast cambridge/Kings lynn trains. Ideally one of these per hour should still call, especilly if the semi-fasts thin out later on & a choice of using Kings cross/st pancras.
The current Kings Cross to Letchworth timing is 25 minutes non-stop so journey time would be longer on the semi-fasts.

 

[Deepgreen]

The survey is rather long (85 questions) !

It certainly is, and all useful cross-referencing between the parent document and the survey is missing, meaning a constant back-and-forth reference is required to understand what most of the questions refer to. Awkward and off-putting for many, I imagine.

 

[Failed Unit]

Dragging this back up after the Autumn experience of the route, drivers of the route please contridict me here.

I just can't see how the timetable will work, I travel on services that stop at Welwyn North. (normally getting on at Welwyn Garden City). The timekeeping on these recently is not good in terms of right time arrival. The often lose time between Stevenage and Welwyn North. I assume this is to keep the general timetable running. I know they will add padding at Finsbury Park, but I have already notice queuing here as well.

Considering on a separated route we are lucky to run on time in the peak, I still would be very interested to know who this will work in reality (or will more services miss out Welwyn North). I see Letchworth and Hitchin are other common areas for time to be lost.

It also back to my earlier point seems amazing they are going to attempt to run 4tph to Welwyn North in the high peak considering the performance impact the station has. Surely it should be Welwyn Garden City / Knebworth that gets the additional services where they won't get in the way of the ECML.

I just hope that if people don't answer a question they don't take that as "customers have no preference". I didn't comment on Walton-on-Stone as it doesn't impact me along with most of the changes South of the river. Just hope they don't use the lack of response as acceptance of the proposal.

 

[Class377/5]

In a staff brief today, it was stated that almost 13,000 replied to the consultation.

Phase 2 will be launched in late spring/early summer and detail

full weekday and weekend timetables and provide further opportunity for comments

 

[Failed Unit]

Look forward to seeing next phase. But think it is sad such a low number have responded.

Does the rail industry have a separate consultation? I can't see network rail or VTEC liking them blocking so many paths in the peak at Welwyn North.

 

[Class377/5]

Look forward to seeing next phase. But think it is sad such a low number have responded.

Does the rail industry have a separate consultation? I can't see network rail or VTEC liking them blocking so many paths in the peak at Welwyn North.

GTR won the franchise based on a draft timetable which included the long distance paths for MML/ECML included so all the working GTR have produced since are based around this requirement.

The full timetable will be available to VTEC/EMT etc as well with them having various way of dealing with any issues. Remember the train planning departures of various TOC's regularly meet anyway to tackle problems and issues as a natural part of timetable development.

 

[Ianno87]

Look forward to seeing next phase. But think it is sad such a low number have responded.

Does the rail industry have a separate consultation? I can't see network rail or VTEC liking them blocking so many paths in the peak at Welwyn North.

You can respend to the consultation as an 'Organisation' as well as an 'Individual'. Plus I wouls suspect alot of stuff will get ironed out through the industry timetable planning process too.

 

[swt_passenger]

Look forward to seeing next phase. But think it is sad such a low number have responded.

Meanwhile, back in 2012;

"We received 3535 responses. 92% of these were received from individuals and the remainder from organisations such as rail industry stakeholders, government authorities, special interest groups and passenger interest groups. "

13,000 is three times as many as the earlier TSGN consultation. I expect it is well above the norm for DfT consultations about franchises.

 

[Failed Unit]

Meanwhile, back in 2012;

"We received 3535 responses. 92% of these were received from individuals and the remainder from organisations such as rail industry stakeholders, government authorities, special interest groups and passenger interest groups. "

13,000 is three times as many as the earlier TSGN consultation. I expect it is well above the norm for DfT consultations about franchises.

It is interesting despite GTRs best attempts, announcements at stations etc how many people I speak to are unaware of the changes. I didn't realise that Grant Shapps (MP for Welwyn and Hatfeild) lives in Brookmans Park. I mentioned it to some people living thier that I am surprised that he isn't more vocal about the reduction in service in the area including the cuts at thier local station off peak. They are regretting not reading it now,

I hope this is meaningful and not already decided with the consultation just to put "we asked" onto it.

I just fear that we Welwyn and Hatfield are going to see a worse service post 2018 (with the loss of the Peterborough service, 23 minutes connect to get into it at Southbound among other things) then look in envy to see the biggest bottle neck on the route Welwyn North get more stops in the peak blocking the only 2 track section of the mainline more frequently than today.

I of course answered N/A for many of the changes south of the thames.

I also hope that they don't say only 5% support this, 95% offered no opinion so therefore we will do it based on the 95%. Who probably offered no opinion because it was not relevant to their journey.

 

[Bald Rick]

Look forward to seeing next phase. But think it is sad such a low number have responded.

This is a huge response. Numbers for consultations such as this are usually in the mid hundreds.

 

[Failed Unit]

This is a huge response. Numbers for consultations such as this are usually in the mid hundreds.

Maybe is compared to others, but considering how many passengers use the franchise daily I still think it is low. (if you follow my train of thought)

But as I said earlier, you can't complain at GTR for trying to make passengers aware of it happening.

I put my 2p in, so if the changes happen (or the impact of them isn't reduced) at least I put my viewpoint over, that is all we can do.

 

[Failed Unit]

Sorry if I should have started another thread but the timetable is published now

https://www.transformingrail.com/-/media/goahead/transforming-rail/files/gn-mainline-routes-2018.pdf

Haven't looked in every detail but very little changed sinces the consultation including the very poor service from South of Stevenage to Peterborough.

One interesting thing is knebworth gets 4TPH in the peak.

Hatfield and WGC big losers with slower services. In the peak getting into London on the fastest train is now 30 minutes as compared to 22 today. (From wgc). That said many going beyond kings cross may get that time back with the direct service through core. Looks like they use the slow line throughout.

As for overcrowding the seat reduction may work. Faster options exist from most stations north to London and Finsbury Park. (North of WGC) and the difference in speed of the service that calls at new Barnet, oakleigh park and new Southgate isn't much slower to get people moving to it. Today many crowd into the fast to save about 10 mins.

Shame the Peterborough problem is dismissed. I guess slows journeys are a given now. As we suspected robustness will be tested to the limit. Still amazed welwyn north gets 4tph considering the performance risk.

 

[philjo]

Sorry if I should have started another thread but the timetable is published now

https://www.transformingrail.com/-/media/goahead/transforming-rail/files/gn-mainline-routes-2018.pdf

Haven't looked in every detail but very little changed sinces the consultation including the very poor service from South of Stevenage to Peterborough.

One interesting thing is knebworth gets 4TPH in the peak.

Hatfield and WGC big losers with slower services. In the peak getting into London on the fastest train is now 30 minutes as compared to 22 today. (From wgc). That said many going beyond kings cross may get that time back with the direct service through core. Looks like they use the slow line throughout.

As for overcrowding the seat reduction may work. Faster options exist from most stations north to London and Finsbury Park. (North of WGC) and the difference in speed of the service that calls at new Barnet, oakleigh park and new Southgate isn't much slower to get people moving to it. Today many crowd into the fast to save about 10 mins.

Shame the Peterborough problem is dismissed. I guess slows journeys are a given now. As we suspected robustness will be tested to the limit. Still amazed welwyn north gets 4tph considering the performance risk.

There is a discussion on this thread http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=149023