GTR Southern short formations

[RichardKing]

I've noticed that more and more peak time services are being formed of less coaches recently (i.e. booked for 12, but shortened to 8). Examples include 1F80 Eastbourne-London Bridge, 1F81 London Bridge-Eastbourne and 1F42 London Victoria-Eastbourne & Ore. All of these services have been allocated 12 coaches for years, so to suddenly have them consistently shortened to 8 is quite the surprise!

When people question Southern on Twitter over this, they claim that the services in question (and others) are meant to be formed of 8 coaches, but can be extended to 12 if stock is available...essentially a get-out clause for 'we can't keep up with train maintenance, so we'll cover our backsides by suggesting that you've just been lucky to get 12 coaches for all these years, but it's meant to be 8'.

Yet another example of GTR's commitment to providing a decent service to their fare-paying customers

 

[RichJF]

The Uckfield Line has atrocious rolling stock availability & trains are regularly shortened from 10 all the way down to 4 coaches. I think it's something down the to maintenance and reliability of these particular units dropping dramatically recently.
For the 171's, they should have been left in 3 car config & sent down to Ashford & swapped with the 2 car Uckfield units. That's a personal opinion though.

The East Grinstead service I get has regularly been 6 or 9 vice 12 on many occasions with Southern citing unavailable coaches.

 

[rebmcr]

meant to be formed of 8 coaches, but can be extended to 12 if stock is available

They're referring to their legal obligations under the franchise specification.

I agree that's a cop-out — there is no need whatsoever for passengers to even know it exists.

 

[RichardKing]

The Uckfield Line has atrocious rolling stock availability & trains are regularly shortened from 10 all the way down to 4 coaches. I think it's something down the to maintenance and reliability of these particular units dropping dramatically recently.
For the 171's, they should have been left in 3 car config & sent down to Ashford & swapped with the 2 car Uckfield units. That's a personal opinion though.

The East Grinstead service I get has regularly been 6 or 9 vice 12 on many occasions with Southern citing unavailable coaches.

Completely agree that the ex-ScotRail units should've been left as 3 cars. The overcrowding on the peak-time Ashfords is unbelievable (probably the same as the Uckfields).
Just goes to show how little common sense GTR management has!

They're referring to their legal obligations under the franchise specification.

I agree that's a cop-out — there is no need whatsoever for passengers to even know it exists.

The GTR franchise agreement seems corrupt in so many ways. For them to be able to fall back on that when their services are becoming dangerously overcrowded is outrageous.

 

[physics34]

The Uckfield Line has atrocious rolling stock availability & trains are regularly shortened from 10 all the way down to 4 coaches. I think it's something down the to maintenance and reliability of these particular units dropping dramatically recently.
For the 171's, they should have been left in 3 car config & sent down to Ashford & swapped with the 2 car Uckfield units. That's a personal opinion though.

The East Grinstead service I get has regularly been 6 or 9 vice 12 on many occasions with Southern citing unavailable coaches.

the Ashfords are being cut down from may i believe?

The issue is that too many things can go wrong with a 10 car that has TEN engines. Each fault needs to be identified, and that drags a whole 10 car out of service. I hear that loco haulage and coaching stock has been discussed but dont know how far down the line that conversation is.

 

[physics34]

Completely agree that the ex-ScotRail units should've been left as 3 cars. The overcrowding on the peak-time Ashfords is unbelievable (probably the same as the Uckfields).
Just goes to show how little common sense GTR management has!


The GTR franchise agreement seems corrupt in so many ways. For them to be able to fall back on that when their services are becoming dangerously overcrowded is outrageous.

really not sure if the 3 car alterations were down to GTR or the DfT.

 

[Bletchleyite]

the Ashfords are being cut down from may i believe?

The issue is that too many things can go wrong with a 10 car that has TEN engines. Each fault needs to be identified, and that drags a whole 10 car out of service. I hear that loco haulage and coaching stock has been discussed but dont know how far down the line that conversation is.

Chiltern seem to manage long DMU formations with no great issue, albeit by forming them out of 2s, 3s and 4s.

 

[RichardKing]

the Ashfords are being cut down from may i believe?

They'll only be running between Eastbourne and Ashford, but the services, mostly peak, will remain busy. One extra coach would probably make quite some difference, especially with the permanently declassified first class.

really not sure if the 3 car alterations were down to GTR or the DfT.

Oh, my mistake (I'm far too used to their cock-ups! ). Who makes these sort of decisions then?

 

[IKB]

The issue is that too many things can go wrong with a 10 car that has TEN engines. Each fault needs to be identified, and that drags a whole 10 car out of service. I hear that loco haulage and coaching stock has been discussed but dont know how far down the line that conversation is.

Something is going to have to change isn't it? The Uckfields must be the most unreliable trains in the country. I do feel sorry for the passengers who rely on that train to commute. A short 3rd rail infill scheme would solve so many problems, as identified in the Gibb report.

 

[mmh]

I never realised the ex-Scotrail 171s were 3 car converted to 2. Why would you do that? 2x3 car 171s coupled to an existing 4car would still give you a 10 car train? Or if the Scotrail trains were a mix of 2 and 3 car why not keep them, or some, of them like that? Put 3 car units on Marshlink and the 2 car units freed up there can go to the Uckfield line.

I wonder what happened to the centre cars - scrapped? They're not much use on their own.

 

[bonzawe]

I never realised the ex-Scotrail 171s were 3 car converted to 2. Why would you do that? 2x3 car 171s coupled to an existing 4car would still give you a 10 car train? Or if the Scotrail trains were a mix of 2 and 3 car why not keep them, or some, of them like that? Put 3 car units on Marshlink and the 2 car units freed up there can go to the Uckfield line.

I wonder what happened to the centre cars - scrapped? They're not much use on their own.

4*3 car became 2*2 car and 2*4 car, all used. Whether the conversion was worth it is a different question but avoided having 3 unit lengths.

 

[mmh]

4*3 car became 2*2 car and 2*4 car, all used. Whether the conversion was worth it is a different question but avoided having 3 unit lengths.

Ah, that makes much more sense - thank you.