GTR Southern Shere TVMs being replaced by Scheidt & Bachmann TVMs.

[swt class 450]

I have just noticed today that almost all Shere TVMs on the Southern network throughout Sussex (even at lots of the small unstaffed stations) have suddenly been replaced by new Scheidt & Bachmann ST71 TVMs. Does anyone know why this is? Are they planning on completely getting rid of all of their Shere machines?

The new TVMs are basically an upgraded version of the ST70 which has been in use throughout the UK for many years. The new TVMs accept cash and cards. They also appear to be able to dispense change in banknotes as well as coins. In addition to a smartcard scanner and a contactless card scanner they also have a barcode scanner (i am not really sure what it is for). Also there is a headphone socket as well that allows you to plug in headphones (i am guessing this is something to help people with hearing difficulties possibly).

One thing that is very disappointing is that they do not have a "tickets from another station" feature which is something that all of their Shere TVMs did have.

 

[Haywain]

Does anyone know why this is?

Probably because the Shere machines were old, and required significant expense to accept new notes and coins and that better functionality could be provided by the replacements. However, there tend to be swings and roundabouts in these things so some previous functionality can be lost on the way - it's just how things go.

 

[LowLevel]

Good luck with them - they've proven to be a pain in the backside on the Nottingham - Worksop line!!

 

[Bletchleyite]

One thing that is very disappointing is that they do not have a "tickets from another station" feature which is something that all of their Shere TVMs did have.

That's pure software. LM's S&B TVMs have it.

 

[Paul Kelly]

That's pure software. LM's S&B TVMs have it.

It requires quite a bit more memory though, as it has to load all fares between all pairs of stations rather than just fares from one station to all others. Maybe GTR have bought low-spec machines?

 

[Silver Cobra]

I wonder if this is basically the same thing that seems to be happening on the Great Northern side of GTR as well. This morning, both of the TVMs at Arlesey were placed 'out of order', as they were being prepared for replacement. I would hazard a guess that the TVMs at Arlesey are Shere machines, hence why they are being replaced, and probably with S&B machines as well.

If the S&B machines are like the machine that was installed at Biggleswade within the last six months, I don't hold high hopes for them. That machine seems to be out of order more often than the older machine beside it.

 

[JonathanH]

A barcode scanner would be good if it could be combined with railcards or even extension tickets if it could be combined with the kind of barcodes that East Coast machines print.

A very disappointing move however by GTR to go for this type of ticket machine given the loss of much of the functionality that the Shere machines had.

One point in particular about the loss of "ticket from another station" functionality is that it is at odds with the way in which ticket barriers are resourced at places like Reigate. The ticket office is morning only but barriers staffed until 8pm. The gateline staff do not have ticket issuing facilities. Until know I think the theory was that ticketless passengers should buy a ticket from their departure station on arrival using the self service machine. That is no longer possible.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Regarding 'tickets from another station'...

That's pure software. LM's S&B TVMs have it.

Ditto London Overground's S&B TVMs.

 

[Silver Cobra]

Turns out that S&B machines have been installed at Arlesey, and already they have been having teething problems. One machine was being attended to by the station staff for a good 20-30 mins (leaving the ticket office unmanned) while the other was having tickets get stuck in it. Thankfully the stuck tickets were being pushed out when other tickets were being printed. Sure, problems could happen to any new machines, but considering​ the old machines were fine, this doesn't help promote the new machines.

I guess what hasn't helped is replacing both machines at once. Had they replaced one first and made sure it worked properly before replacing the second, like at Biggleswade, it wouldn't be so bad.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do they have the old (very basic, no graphics) S&B software, or the new software that appears to be a national standard and based on that developed by SWT, having graphics and some fancier features including a shopping cart for multiple tickets?

 

[stut]

If the S&B machines are like the machine that was installed at Biggleswade within the last six months, I don't hold high hopes for them. That machine seems to be out of order more often than the older machine beside it.

Yup, that machine is a load of Scheidt & Bachmann indeed.

 

[swt class 450]

Well it seems like these ST71 machines have indeed completely replaced 100% of all Shere machines. I did some more travelling around most of the Southern network yesterday evening and today and it seems that every Southern managed station in Hampshire / Kent / Sussex / Surrey (with the exceptions of these 10 stations - Ashurst / Bishopstone / Doleham / Newhaven Harbour / Normans Bay / Ore / Pevensey Bay / Southease / Three Oaks / Winchelsea - which all received the card only ST21 version a few months ago) has received these new machines. There is still quite a few stations in Greater London i haven't checked but i imagine these stations probably now have them as well. Even most rural quiet little used stations now have them. There are a few stations i still haven't checked so i cant be 100% sure but it seems like there are no Shere machines left. I imagine maybe even every GTR (GX / GN / SN / TL) station has them now.

So it seems that it is the end if the Shere machines which must be a huge waste of money considering they have even replaced their newest Shere machines that were only installed in 2012.

One thing that i dislike about the Scheidt & Bachmann machines is that unlike the Shere machines you have to press far more buttons to find your ticket. With the Shere machines you simply type your destination (and your origin if you use the "tickets from another station" feature and it then comes up with all of the fares. Where as with the Scheidt & Bachmann machines you type your destination and then you have to select your route (eg Any Permitted / Not Gatwick Express / Southern Only / Thameslink Only / Via Haywards Heath / Via Barnham etc) and then you have to select whether you want a Single ticket or a Return ticket and then it will finally show you the fares. However unlike the Shere machines it is not possible to view all of the different fares and routes and tickets on the same page on the Scheidt & Bachmann machines which is also very annoying.

Another thing i dislike is the Scheidt & Bachmann machines use the word "One Way" instead of "Single" which is something that really confused me when i first used Scheidt & Bachmann machines. For ages i thought a "One Way" ticket was some type of rover ticket or promotional offer or something like that. So i imagine this could confuse a lot of people.

This biggest annoyance though is definitely the lack of a "tickets from another station" feature. I use the feature so much (a few times a week probably). For example sometimes i will get a lift from Betchworth to Box Hill & Westhumble (as the trains at Betchworth are quite infrequent so sometimes Box Hill & Westhumble is more convenient) but i will need to get the train back to Betchworth in the evening which i why i will need this feature but can no longer use it as the new machine at Box Hill & Westhumble doesn't have it. And then another time recently i had a ticket to Hastings but then later i decided i was going to Ashford International so i simply just bought a Hastings to Ashford International ticket from the TVM at Glynde (which meant i didn't have to get off at Hastings or go find a Guard or OBS). Additionally i got off the train at Hassocks recently and because i travelled from a station without a TVM the ticket barrier man just pointed me to the TVM to use and without the "tickets from another station" feature i don't know what staff will get passengers to do.

To make things even worse Southern have gotten rid of Guards on most trains and OBS are impossible to find (and sometimes trains run without them) and then there are some DOO routes that don't even have OBS. So the "tickets from another station" feature is very important.

And the last thing that is annoying is that the new Scheidt & Bachmann machines all print the new format tickets where as all their Shere machines would all print the old format tickets (which i find much clearer and much prefer them).

 

[Joe Paxton]

Well it seems like these ST71 machines have indeed completely replaced 100% of all Shere machines. ...

No, they haven't. There are still some Shere machines in London.

 

[swt class 450]

No, they haven't. There are still some Shere machines in London.

Thanks for the info. I wasnt entirely sure about their Greater London stations. Are these remaining ones in Greater London likely to get replaced soon as well?

 

[Joe Paxton]

Thanks for the info. I wasnt entirely sure about their Greater London stations. Are these remaining ones in Greater London likely to get replaced soon as well?

No idea. The one I used a few days ago had a really rubbish touchscreen.

 

[swt class 450]

No idea. The one I used a few days ago had a really rubbish touchscreen.

That seems to be a major problem with both Shere machines and Scheidt & Bachmann machines. I have come across so many TVMs that have very unresponsive touchscreens. You often have to press the screen so many times (and sometimes it selects the wrong option).

 

[SussexMan]

There are quite a few posts on Facebook about the new machines causing problems with people's bank cards. This thread was about the TVMs at Polegate.

Anyone on here any good at writing complaints?

 

[swt class 450]

There are quite a few posts on Facebook about the new machines causing problems with people's bank cards. This thread was about the TVMs at Polegate.

Oh dear. That certainly doesnt sound good. I have just looked on Twitter and also found a lot of complaints (at least twenty or thirty) about the new TVMs.

 

[Hassocks5489]

As of today, all four Shere FASTticket machines are still in place and operational at Worthing. Three of the four at Hove are still in use, but the machine outside the station was being decommissioned yesterday evening (it's still standing there though). The first new S&B I spotted was at East Worthing on 7th March, incidentally. Moulsecoomb and Brighton had not been "done" as of last Saturday (25th).

 

[swt class 450]

As of today, all four Shere FASTticket machines are still in place and operational at Worthing. Three of the four at Hove are still in use, but the machine outside the station was being decommissioned yesterday evening (it's still standing there though). The first new S&B I spotted was at East Worthing on 7th March, incidentally. Moulsecoomb and Brighton had not been "done" as of last Saturday (25th).

Thanks for the update. It seems like they have started installing them firstly at the smallest rural unstaffed stations before moving on to the larger stations. I am guessing the plan is to eventually install them at 100% of all GTR stations. I have noticed quite a few have only just been installed in the past few days so i guess they are still working on it.

 

[Hassocks5489]

I collect tickets by machine number. Looks like I suddenly have a big task ahead of me (again)!!

I've obtained tickets from four of the new machines so far. Looking at the spread of machine numbers (4259 @ Aldrington, 4626 @ Shoreham-by-Sea), it suggests that if there are no gaps in the numbering sequence there will be at least 368 machines by the end of the installation programme. Add in ex-Thameslink and Great Northern stations and we could be looking at about 500.

I've just had a look at my Shere FASTticket spreadsheet (compiled based on tickets I have in my collection) and it looks like there were latterly 364 Shere FASTs at Southern stations, excluding machines at locations transferred to London Overground (e.g. Anerley) and a few anomalies (the original machine at Cooden Beach was removed, and one at Haywards Heath was renumbered). I guess we can expect at least at many S&Bs, assuming like-for-like replacements at all stations. I wonder if the opportunity to replace the few remaining PERTIS with new S&Bs might be taken?...

 

[Dann]

Not sure about the names of the models but I can confirm that all the old model ticket machines at Welwyn Garden City on GTR/Great Northern have been switched to a new ticket machine model, and the same/similar models have been installed at Welwyn North and New Barnet stations. If you ask me the User Interface is a big step backwards in usability :/

 

[Hadders]

If you ask me the User Interface is a big step backwards in usability :/

Sounds about right for GTR.

 

[swt class 450]

I collect tickets by machine number. Looks like I suddenly have a big task ahead of me (again)!!

I've obtained tickets from four of the new machines so far. Looking at the spread of machine numbers (4259 @ Aldrington, 4626 @ Shoreham-by-Sea), it suggests that if there are no gaps in the numbering sequence there will be at least 368 machines by the end of the installation programme. Add in ex-Thameslink and Great Northern stations and we could be looking at about 500.

I've just had a look at my Shere FASTticket spreadsheet (compiled based on tickets I have in my collection) and it looks like there were latterly 364 Shere FASTs at Southern stations, excluding machines at locations transferred to London Overground (e.g. Anerley) and a few anomalies (the original machine at Cooden Beach was removed, and one at Haywards Heath was renumbered). I guess we can expect at least at many S&Bs, assuming like-for-like replacements at all stations. I wonder if the opportunity to replace the few remaining PERTIS with new S&Bs might be taken?...

I do the exact same thing and collect tickets from all TVMs (well only the cash accepting ones as i don't use bank cards to pay for things). It looks like it will be much more expensive to collect tickets now as it is no longer possible to purchase cheap Lichfield City to Lichfield Trent Valley tickets which are the cheapest available tickets from the Shere ones! That is a good idea to keep a spreadsheet of numbers. I should really probably​ do something like that as i have all my notes and numbers written down in a book all over the place! So have you gotten a ticket and recorded the numbers of every machine on the Southern network?

Yes i imagine there will be at least the same amount of new Scheidt & Bachmann ones as there were Shere ones. And possibly even more as some of the larger stations might possibly have additional machines installed?

I hope they don't remove their PERTIS machines. It seems that these new machines have just replaced the Shere TVMs rather than the PERTIS machines. At the moment the following 24 PERTIS machines still exist on the Southern network:

Aldrington (P2) AS88 02912
Balcombe (P2) AS88 02930
Bishopstone (ent) serial number plate removed
Cheam (P2) AS88 02819
Cooksbridge (P2) AS89 05648
East Worthing (P2) AS89 05680
Faygate (P2) AS88 02873
Fishbourne (P2) AS89 05571
Fishersgate (P2) AS88 02910
Ford (P2) AS89 05570
Glynde (P2) AS88 02829
Holmwood (P2) AS88 02907
Newhaven Harb (P1) AS89 05647
Newhaven Harb (P2) AS89 05743
Newhaven Town (P2) AS89 05622
North Dulwich (ent) AS88 02867
Nutbourne (P1) AS89 05654
Plumpton (P1) AS89 05628
Portslade (P2) AS88 02949
Salfords (P2) AS88 02861
Southease (P1) AS89 05650
Southease (P2) AS89 05655
Warblington (P1) AS89 05758
Warnham (P2) AS88 02917

I hope they don't get removed. Although just this month Southeastern have removed their final three so who knows if maybe Southern (and Great Northern and Thameslink as well) will also get removed.

 

[swt class 450]

Not sure about the names of the models but I can confirm that all the old model ticket machines at Welwyn Garden City on GTR/Great Northern have been switched to a new ticket machine model, and the same/similar models have been installed at Welwyn North and New Barnet stations. If you ask me the User Interface is a big step backwards in usability :/

Sounds about right for GTR.

I completely agree. The user interface is much better on Shere machines then on Scheidt & Bachmann machines. But as we all know GTR couldnt care less about their passengers so it doesnt really surprise me.

 

[AM9]

As a related question, is there an obligation to allow the purchase of a ticket for a journey from anywhere to anywhere (provided that there is a fare for it)? I can appreciate that it may not always be practical at smaller outposts, but is there a mechanism where a passenger can get the cheapest ticket to get in the system and then 'upgrade' it on board or at a principal station en route? If so would that mechanism be cost neutral?

 

[tsr]

Thanks for the update. It seems like they have started installing them firstly at the smallest rural unstaffed stations before moving on to the larger stations. I am guessing the plan is to eventually install them at 100% of all GTR stations. I have noticed quite a few have only just been installed in the past few days so i guess they are still working on it.

Some of the smaller stations will only recently have entered the newer GTR network-wide Penalty Fares scheme, so they'll have been amongst the first to need proper TVMs are installed. Although we all like the concept of the simple PERTIS machine, unfortunately it is not the best solution for all passengers to be able to obtain a ticket for travel in a PF zone, whereas a TVM makes things rather more clear-cut in a number of ways (not least remote monitoring to see if they have been in use when a passenger claims to have travelled).

Not sure about the names of the models but I can confirm that all the old model ticket machines at Welwyn Garden City on GTR/Great Northern have been switched to a new ticket machine model, and the same/similar models have been installed at Welwyn North and New Barnet stations. If you ask me the User Interface is a big step backwards in usability :/

There are 2 different models of S&B machine going in, and I believe there have been a few incremental upgrades of the interface in some places too. I've yet to have a chance to properly play with either of the new machines, as they're usually at calling points of trains that I'm already on, but I'm hoping to have a good look in the next couple of weeks, in order to gain my own opinions! With the UI of the older TVMs in place at many Southern stations, the main disadvantage was generally the slow speed. It was much better on the on-screen staff training simulation running on a decent computer, which goes to show how a better bag of hardware could have future-proofed them. Ah well!

As a related question, is there an obligation to allow the purchase of a ticket for a journey from anywhere to anywhere (provided that there is a fare for it)? I can appreciate that it may not always be practical at smaller outposts, but is there a mechanism where a passenger can get the cheapest ticket to get in the system and then 'upgrade' it on board or at a principal station en route? If so would that mechanism be cost neutral?

I'm not sure if this is in the franchise/management contract agreement, or the spec for the new TVMs, but I think perhaps not. It's a shame if so.

In the current circumstances I guess I could only recommend purchasing the cheapest valid ticket for the specific train being used, and then asking for the appropriate over-distance excess when the passenger next finds a member of staff, though I'm not sure that fully answers your question, and I can't guarantee it would be "cost neutral" as you state.

 

[swt class 450]

As a related question, is there an obligation to allow the purchase of a ticket for a journey from anywhere to anywhere (provided that there is a fare for it)? I can appreciate that it may not always be practical at smaller outposts, but is there a mechanism where a passenger can get the cheapest ticket to get in the system and then 'upgrade' it on board or at a principal station en route? If so would that mechanism be cost neutral?

Some of the smaller stations will only recently have entered the newer GTR network-wide Penalty Fares scheme, so they'll have been amongst the first to need proper TVMs are installed. Although we all like the concept of the simple PERTIS machine, unfortunately it is not the best solution for all passengers to be able to obtain a ticket for travel in a PF zone, whereas a TVM makes things rather more clear-cut in a number of ways (not least remote monitoring to see if they have been in use when a passenger claims to have travelled).



There are 2 different models of S&B machine going in, and I believe there have been a few incremental upgrades of the interface in some places too. I've yet to have a chance to properly play with either of the new machines, as they're usually at calling points of trains that I'm already on, but I'm hoping to have a good look in the next couple of weeks, in order to gain my own opinions! With the UI of the older TVMs in place at many Southern stations, the main disadvantage was generally the slow speed. It was much better on the on-screen staff training simulation running on a decent computer, which goes to show how a better bag of hardware could have future-proofed them. Ah well!



I'm not sure if this is in the franchise/management contract agreement, or the spec for the new TVMs, but I think perhaps not. It's a shame if so.

In the current circumstances I guess I could only recommend purchasing the cheapest valid ticket for the specific train being used, and then asking for the appropriate over-distance excess when the passenger next finds a member of staff, though I'm not sure that fully answers your question, and I can't guarantee it would be "cost neutral" as you state.

I will just buy my ticket on the train or at my destination from now on seeing as the "tickets from another station" feature is no longer available. I have boarded trains at Penalty Fare stations lots of times in the past (probably at least 100 times) and bought my tickets either onboard from the Guard or OBS or from the ticket office at my destination and i have never had a problem before. Guards and OBS always seem happy to sell me whatever ticket i want even if you board at a Penalty Fare station and ticket barrier staff (even at large stations) always seem happy to let me through to buy a ticket at the ticket office. And RPIs are basically non existent nowadays seeing as they have all been converted to OBS. So the lack of a "tickets from another station" feature is very annoying and inconvenient but there are still other ways to purchase.

Does anyone know if GTR actually have any plans to replace their PERTIS machines? I ask because so many have been broken for years. Some of them have been broken since as far back as 2009. So it seems like they have actually just completely forgotten about some of them. The ones that have been broken since 2009 are not even on the list i was provided with by Metric Group (who own and maintain them)!

In regards to the TVMs i believe the two types of Scheidt & Bachmann TVMs in use are the ST21 (card only) and the ST71 (cash and card). There is also the older ST70 which have been in use at GN and TL station for many years (which i believe are also getting replaced). And there are about eight different types of Shere machines in use on GTR (which are getting removed).

The ST21 were installed at:
• Appledore (this station previously had no machines).
• Ashurst (this station previously had one PERTIS machines which has now been removed).
• Bishopstone (this station still has one [working] PERTIS machine).
• Doleham (this station previously had no machines).
• Newhaven Harbour (this station still has two [both working] PERTIS machines).
• Normans Bay (this station previously had no machines).
• Ore (this station previously had no machines).
• Pevensey Bay (this station previously had no machines).
• Southease (this station still has two [both working] PERTIS machines).
• Three Oaks (this station previously had no machines).
• Winchelsea (this station previously had no machines).

The ST21 machines are also used at some larger stations in addition to cash and card TVMs. The ST71 machines are the cash and card type that have been installed at most GTR stations very recently replacing the Shere machines.

The way they have done everything is very strange. For example why did Ashurst have its PERTIS removed when the new TVM was installed yet Southease and Newhaven Harbour still have two PERTIS machines each even though they have had TVMs installed? And then why did places like Ore only get card only TVMs when even quieter stations like Faygate / Holmwood / Ockley / Warnham all got cash and card TVMs installed?

 

[John @ home]

why did places like Ore only get card only TVMs when even quieter stations like Faygate / Holmwood / Ockley / Warnham all got cash and card TVMs installed?

I would expect a decision to provide a card only TVM to be based on a risk assessment of local vandalism and theft.

 

[Brucey]

I collected four tickets and bought an off-peak return from one of the new machines at Waterbeach a few weeks ago. So far I've used both portions of the off peak and three of the others from putside GTR land. None of the magnetic strips have been encoded! All return error 07 or 09, depending on the gate.