GTR refused my Delay Repay claim (complex journey)

[matabiau]

I recently travelled from Southampton Airport Parkway to Arundel.

It was the Saturday in mid November when the signaling failed in Esher stopping the whole of SWTs trains between London and Woking. I managed to get to Southampton Central on time to catch the scheduled Southern train to Brighton thanks to Cross Country.

I had to change again at Barnham where I was stuck for nearly an hour as the first London bound train arrived so late it ran fast to Horsham making me wait for the subsequent delayed stopping train.

My delay was solely due to GTR Southern but they are refusing a refund saying it was SWT's fault!

True, SWT trains had stopped running at the time, but they didn't delay me as I caught the XC train going the same way at the same time. Any advice?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, GTR are wrong. SWT's issues did not cause a delay to your journey so SWT is not relevant.

 

[AlterEgo]

On a similar thread, I recently travelled from Southampton Airport Parkway to Arundel. It was the Saturday in mid November when the signaling failed in Esher stopping the whole of SWTs trains between London and Woking. I managed to get to Southampton Central on time to catch the scheduled Southern train to Brighton thanks to Cross Country. I had to change again at Barnham where I was stuck for nearly an hour as the first London bound train arrived so late it ran fast to Horsham making me wait for the subsequent delayed stopping train. My delay was solely due to Southern but they are refusing a refund saying it was SWTs fault! True, SWT trains had stopped running at the time, but they didn't delay me as I caught the XC train going the same way at the same time. Any advice?

With a multi leg journey, the claim lies with the TOC who caused the first delay or problem.

In this case, it is a little unclear, and you could argue Southern should pay out, but strictly speaking SWT are liable here even though you made a booked connection. I know that sounds counterintuitive to you and I but that is how the industry deals with it. Southern should send your claim to SWT for consideration.

Did you tell Southern about the SWT issues?

 

[matabiau]

Thanks for your help. When I first declared the delay to Southern nearly a month ago all I could quote was the journey, start time and delay. Southern have only just rejected my claim so it is now too late to contact SWT as it is over a month since I travelled.
Southern invited me to resubmit my claim with them explaining the problem which I have done, but there is only room for 250 characters on their form so difficult to go into detail. I have mentioned the initial problem with SWT but they did not delay me as there was a suitable XC train in its place so as you have said they did not delay me. I was not travelling on a reservation so I would imagine it is reasonable to take any valid train between two points, hard to say it had to be SWT in this situation.
The real problem was Southern not only running very late but trying to make up time by not stopping at my destination!

 

[yorkie]

On a similar thread, I recently travelled from Southampton Airport Parkway to Arundel. It was the Saturday in mid November when the signaling failed in Esher stopping the whole of SWTs trains between London and Woking. I managed to get to Southampton Central on time to catch the scheduled Southern train to Brighton thanks to Cross Country. I had to change again at Barnham where I was stuck for nearly an hour as the first London bound train arrived so late it ran fast to Horsham making me wait for the subsequent delayed stopping train. My delay was solely due to Southern but they are refusing a refund saying it was SWTs fault! True, SWT trains had stopped running at the time, but they didn't delay me as I caught the XC train going the same way at the same time. Any advice?

Please post full details if you want the best possible advice.

Include, in tabular format, details of your planned itinerary vs. your actual departure & arrival times, for all legs of the journey.

 

[sheff1]

With a multi leg journey, the claim lies with the TOC who caused the first delay or problem.

In this case, it is a little unclear, and you could argue Southern should pay out, but strictly speaking SWT are liable here even though you made a booked connection. I know that sounds counterintuitive to you and I but that is how the industry deals with it. Southern should send your claim to SWT for consideration.

I do not understand the logic here. The events, as I read them, are:

* There was no relevant delay between Southampton Parkway & Central. He still caught the required connection from Central to Barnham.

* He was on time arriving at Barnham where he needed to change to get to Arundel.

* The train he was due to connect into at Barnham was so late that the Arundel stop for it was withdrawn.

* The first available train which actually stopped at Arundel got him there xx mins late.

The only 'delay repay triggering' delay to the journey was caused at Barnham by Southern firstly running late, resulting in the stop being taken out, followed by the next train (which did stop) also being late.

If the SWT train from Southampton Parkway to Central had run as scheduled the onward journey (and delay) would have been on exactly the same trains as he caught anyway. As either on ontime SWT train or the XC would make the connection at Central, which one he intended to catch and which one he actually caught is neither here nor there.

 

[bb21]

Since you made the connection in any case, that leaves SWT in the clear.

GTR are liable for the resultant Delay Repay.

 

[Mag_seven]

Surely there is a case for some sort of "railway clearing house" system here. Simply return the ticket to the TOC that it was purchased from and let the "railway clearing house" do the rest.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely there is a case for some sort of "railway clearing house" system here. Simply return the ticket to the TOC that it was purchased from and let the "railway clearing house" do the rest.

Agreed. There should be a central clearing house for Delay Repay claims, and the cost should be billed to TOCs proportional to their delay figures.

It'd also keep TOC customer services departments free to deal with actual customer services rather than simple claims.

 

[AlterEgo]

I agree with the logic of all the previous posters. I appreciate that the connection was made and therefore you'd think Southern should pay out.

Unfortunately that's not how DR claims work in reality.

You simply submit it to the TOC which had the first issue. In this case it was SWT whose train was cancelled first.

It is weird and backward. If you submit it to SWT they will likely pay out. Southern have already done the wrong thing in not forwarding the claim to SWT, there is a process for TOC's to do this kind of thing where they refuse liability and point the finger somewhere else.

I can't defend the logic, just stating that's how it usually works.

Delay Repay is not intended to be an exercise which involves much thinking or working out who is at fault. The claim goes to the TOC which had the first delay or cancellation and they then become liable for all of the cost of that journey.

 

[sheff1]

I have no doubt your reply is based on experience. All I can say is that I have had similar things happen to me and when I have made a Delay Repay claim to the TOC which actually delayed my arrival at my destination they have paid out without quibble.

By coincidence, the last such claim was only this month. I was initially delayed by EMT between Sheffield and Manchester, missing the Northern connection there but making the following TPE train, which was then also late but it still arrived in Preston in time to make the VTWC train as that, in turn, was late too !

If the initial EMT delay had caused me to miss the final VTWC train, I would have claimed from EMT, but it didn't so I claimed from Virgin as it was they who deposited me in Glasgow over an hour late (and would still have done so if EMT and Northern/TPE had been on time). As I said, Virgin paid out and very quickly too - the compensation arrived in less than a week.

Perhaps I have just been lucky ... or may be it is because I quote the departure time of the TOC I am claiming from (VTWC from Preston in this case) on the form, making no mention of the previous operators ?

 

[cjmillsnun]

I agree with the logic of all the previous posters. I appreciate that the connection was made and therefore you'd think Southern should pay out.

Unfortunately that's not how DR claims work in reality.

You simply submit it to the TOC which had the first issue. In this case it was SWT whose train was cancelled first.

It is weird and backward. If you submit it to SWT they will likely pay out. Southern have already done the wrong thing in not forwarding the claim to SWT, there is a process for TOC's to do this kind of thing where they refuse liability and point the finger somewhere else.

I can't defend the logic, just stating that's how it usually works.

Delay Repay is not intended to be an exercise which involves much thinking or working out who is at fault. The claim goes to the TOC which had the first delay or cancellation and they then become liable for all of the cost of that journey.

SWT don't do DR. Also there was obviously a choice of services (SWT or XC) to make the connection and XC were running as normal so back to GTR for the delay that was solely caused by their service.

 

[AlterEgo]

SWT don't do DR. Also there was obviously a choice of services (SWT or XC) to make the connection and XC were running as normal so back to GTR for the delay that was solely caused by their service.

SWT still do operate a compensation scheme for delays. I accept your logic 100%, honestly I do - and it makes perfect sense. Southern should morally pay out because it was really only at that point in the journey that the OP started missing connections.

It really is very difficult to explain and I cannot defend how bloody daft it is!

 

[AlterEgo]

...may be it is because I quote the departure time of the TOC I am claiming from (VTWC from Preston in this case) on the form, making no mention of the previous operators ?

This is probably it. Really, DR is processed incredibly quickly, with most cases done, and the letter sent, within two minutes. There is no time for investigation or thinking hard about things, as the operators don't have the luxury of the time that we on the forum can devote to analysing these kinds of things. You generally don't do any investigating of your own unless something quite obviously doesn't add up.

EDIT: IS doublepost merging slow/absent today?

 

[matabiau]

Please post full details if you want the best possible advice.

Include, in tabular format, details of your planned itinerary vs. your actual departure & arrival times, for all legs of the journey.

THanks for all of your suggestions, as requiested here is my itinerary:

Off peak Day Single
Southampton Airport Parkway to Arundel
Bought 10:48am

Train 1 11:09 CrossCountry Southampton Airport Parkway to Southampton Central
Train 2 11:32 Southern Southampton Central to Barnham
Train 3 12:37 Southern Barnham to Arundel CANCELLED (Ran fast to Horsham)
Train 4 13:03 Southern Barnham to Arundel DELAYED by less than 30 minutes

 

[sheff1]

Which makes the discussion above even more bizarre. With a walk up ticket bought at that time there is ZERO requirement to step foot on ANY SWT train for a scheduled arrival at Arundel of 1246.

 

[swt_passenger]

The only thing I can think of is that the xx09 XC only appears in alternate (odd) hours, and the chap at GTR has looked at the wrong time of day (i.e. an even hour when the XC Southampton terminator doesn't run) and found (in his opinion) no logical use for a XC connecting service, because it would be half an hour too early?

IYSWIM...

 

[cjmillsnun]

SWT still do operate a compensation scheme for delays. I accept your logic 100%, honestly I do - and it makes perfect sense. Southern should morally pay out because it was really only at that point in the journey that the OP started missing connections.

It really is very difficult to explain and I cannot defend how bloody daft it is!

Yet if the OP went to SWT. Their answer would rightly be... "You did not catch one of our services. The delay to your journey was caused by Southern. Please take this claim up with GTR."

 

[AlterEgo]

Yet if the OP went to SWT. Their answer would rightly be... "You did not catch one of our services. The delay to your journey was caused by Southern. Please take this claim up with GTR."

It wouldn't. They'd look at the scheduled time of departure, see this SWT service was cancelled and pay out at that point. Delay Repay is an unthinking process, with a high degree of automation.

 

[sheff1]

What a Kafkaesque system. A TOC will pay out even though the cancellation of their train caused zero delay to the passenger's journey. You couldn't make it up !

 

[najaB]

What a Kafkaesque system. A TOC will pay out even though the cancellation of their train caused zero delay to the passenger's journey. You couldn't make it up !

It's all about costs and use of staff time. Paying out the occasional invalid claim is cheaper than investigating all of them.

 

[MichaelAMW]

THanks for all of your suggestions, as requiested here is my itinerary:

Off peak Day Single
Southampton Airport Parkway to Arundel
Bought 10:48am

Train 1 11:09 CrossCountry Southampton Airport Parkway to Southampton Central
Train 2 11:32 Southern Southampton Central to Barnham
Train 3 12:37 Southern Barnham to Arundel CANCELLED (Ran fast to Horsham)
Train 4 13:03 Southern Barnham to Arundel DELAYED by less than 30 minutes

What you did "wrong", and I say this purely as a comment to let others think about how to be a bit more wise in future rather than in any way to criticise you, was to even mention SWT in the first place. You should have simply said you were travelling from Southampton AP to Arundel and you were delayed at Barnham after an on-time arrival there.

I take it all back if this is in fact what you did and GTR decided to blame SWT.

 

[AlterEgo]

What you did "wrong", and I say this purely as a comment to let others think about how to be a bit more wise in future rather than in any way to criticise you, was to even mention SWT in the first place. You should have simply said you were travelling from Southampton AP to Arundel and you were delayed at Barnham after an on-time arrival there.

Yes, doing this would have guaranteed this was paid out by Southern.

Always give the bare minimum of detail in any Delay Repay claim unless there is a compelling reason to do otherwise. Always be honest, too, of course.

 

[bb21]

I have auto authorised delay compensation before, but usually only for sums under £10 and during times of excess workload when it was not worth my time investigating. I don't think there are definitive rules on how it works in such cases, so mostly down to interpretation, or if there were, I have never seen them myself.

I have however sent back a few claims to the TOC responsible for the delay in the manner of GTR described in this thread, mostly XC and never heard anything back so I assume they admitted liability and paid out, two notable ones being worth £160 and £120.

 

[matabiau]

What you did "wrong", and I say this purely as a comment to let others think about how to be a bit more wise in future rather than in any way to criticise you, was to even mention SWT in the first place. You should have simply said you were travelling from Southampton AP to Arundel and you were delayed at Barnham after an on-time arrival there.

I take it all back if this is in fact what you did and GTR decided to blame SWT.

Ironically, had I gone down that route I may have received a 100% refund as the SWT trains were blocked for over an hour! In my initial claim I was only asked to give the start and end locations and times of my journey, less than 1 hour delay.

 

[Dom395]

I recently travelled from Southampton Airport Parkway to Arundel.

It was the Saturday in mid November when the signaling failed in Esher stopping the whole of SWTs trains between London and Woking. I managed to get to Southampton Central on time to catch the scheduled Southern train to Brighton thanks to Cross Country.

I had to change again at Barnham where I was stuck for nearly an hour as the first London bound train arrived so late it ran fast to Horsham making me wait for the subsequent delayed stopping train.

My delay was solely due to GTR Southern but they are refusing a refund saying it was SWT's fault!

True, SWT trains had stopped running at the time, but they didn't delay me as I caught the XC train going the same way at the same time. Any advice?

Your first mistake was taking a Southern train...

 

[sheff1]

Your first mistake was taking a Southern train...

How do you suggest they get from Southampton Airport Parkway to Arundel by public transport ?

 

[MikeWh]

Your first mistake was taking a Southern train...

How do you suggest they get from Southampton Airport Parkway to Arundel by public transport ?

Well indeed. However, when trying to be funny/topical, Dom395, it's always a good idea to use a smiley. Either or might have been appropriate here.

 

[matabiau]

Thank you for all of your advice. I have just received an email from Southern to say they will credit my account with 50% of the fare paid corresponding to a delay of between 30 and 60 minutes. This is just as I understood I was due according to the delay payments scheme.
I have also received an email from South-west trains apparently investigating the same delay! I didn't contact them so I can only suppose that this is a result of Southern forwarding to them the initial delay request?

 

[sheff1]

Good to hear. Thanks for letting us know.