GTR prosecution and Railcard

[Vishalini]

I recently moved to the UK and joined the University September 2023. As a new resident, having been here for less than a month, I am still in the process of familiarizing myself with local policies and transportation rules. On October 10, 2023, I was traveling alone to my university using a Together Railcard, which I had purchased on September 27, 2023, for my partner and myself to travel together on national railways. My class at the University was scheduled for 11:00 AM, and I was in a rush to reach the university on time. Unfortunately, my partner was unavailable to travel with me because of his own college commitments.
Unaware that the railcard is only valid when traveling together, I mistakenly used it for my solo journey. At 10:21 AM, the ticket inspector checked my ticket, and I presented the Together Railcard, not realizing my error. Despite my attempt to explain my situation and my unfamiliarity with the policies, I was issued a fine of £132.10. I fully acknowledge that it is my responsibility to understand and adhere to the rules as I am new to Uk have come for September college intake. It's been just a week for me in the UK. However, as soon as I became aware of my mistake, I immediately rectified it by purchasing a 16-25 Railcard on the same day, October 10, 2023, to ensure future compliance. Additionally, the ticket inspector recorded an incorrect date of birth, which further complicates the situation. I have received a letter from great northern services regarding my penalty and stated that there is no scope for appeal in that penalty. They did not provide me with any contact information to write back and explain my situation. I tried to explain to the ticket inspector about my understanding on the railcard but he wasn't ready to atleast to listen to me and find find immediately without any notice. As a international student it is hard to understand the procedure and he made me panic to accept the this unexpected situation forcefully but then i expected a guidances from him regarding the railcard purchased and he refused left from that place my co passenger understood the situation and helped me with the situation by guiding me for purchasing 16-25 railcard immediately.

1. First-Time Offense: This is my first infraction, and I assure you that I have learned from this experience and will be more diligent in the future.
2. Genuine Mistake: As a new resident, I was not fully aware of the specific conditions of the Together Railcard. My intention was never to evade fare rules but was a result of a misunderstanding.
3. Immediate Rectification: Upon realizing my mistake, I promptly purchased the correct 16-25 Railcard on the same day to ensure future compliance.

I have attached copies of the relevant documents

 

[John R]

You appear to have been taken to court and fined for non-payment of the penalty fare. As you have not paid the fine imposed on you when convicted, the court authorities are attempting to recover the money, along with the associated costs of the debt collection. In other words, you are in a very difficult situation, as well as having a criminal conviction.

Why did you not pay the penalty fare when you got that letter? Did you just hope it would go away? And have you received any other documentation in respect of the court hearing, that you have just ignored? They seem to have your correct address.

There is a procedure for reversing a conviction if you genuinely did not know you were being taken to court, but if you received letters and ignored them, you won't be able to make a "statutory declaration" to the court to say that you were unaware of the proceedings.

Finally, saying you didn't understand the terms of the railcard because you are new is unlikely to cut any ice - which bit of "Two Together" did you not understand?

 

[Puffing Devil]

There appear to be documents missing here unless you missed the court summons. Also, please post the letter in which you were told there were no grounds to appeal your initial penalty. As you were issued a penalty fare and appealed, the prosecution would not be valid.

 

[Deafdoggie]

How did you purchase just one ticket with a two together railcard? Online retailers don't permit it.

 

[methecooldude]

How did you purchase just one ticket with a two together railcard? Online retailers don't permit it.

I think, if I'm reading the OP correctly, they normally travel together but in this instance could not, so I assume the tickets were already purchased before the unavailability was known

 

[AlterEgo]

Did you appeal the penalty fare using the method specified on the penalty date document issued to you? Or did you lodge a complaint or comment with GTR?

If you appealed this PF *in line with the Regulations* they should not have prosecuted you.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I think, if I'm reading the OP correctly, they normally travel together but in this instance could not, so I assume the tickets were already purchased before the unavailability was known

So they had two tickets with a third off on each of them. So they paid four thirds of the fare they would have paid had they not used the railcard?
Something seems off here.

 

[Haywain]

So they had two tickets with a third off on each of them. So they paid four thirds of the fare they would have paid had they not used the railcard?
Something seems off here.

Like not presenting both tickets?

 

[John R]

So they had two tickets with a third off on each of them. So they paid four thirds of the fare they would have paid had they not used the railcard?
Something seems off here.

As far as the railway is concerned, they could both be using the tickets but travelling at different times, so they were both getting a discount they were not entitled to.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Like not presenting both tickets?

As far as the railway is concerned, they could both be using the tickets but travelling at different times, so they were both getting a discount they were not entitled to.

So if both tickets were shown and both were clipped, there's no issue?
As the railcard was shown, they couldn't both be shown independently anyway

 

[Haywain]

As you were issued a penalty fare and appealed, the prosecution would not be valid.

I do not see anything to suggest that the OP submitted an appeal.

 

[John R]

So if both tickets were shown and both were clipped, there's no issue?
As the railcard was shown, they couldn't both be shown independently anyway

Yes there would be an issue as they wouldn't be travelling together.

It's very simple - you have to travel together, so I'm not sure what you're original point was trying to make about "something being off".

 

[AlterEgo]

I do not see anything to suggest that the OP submitted an appeal.

We need the OP to clarify what is meant by this, and whether they did in fact submit any appeal at all (why would they receive a letter saying there is no scope for appeal?).

I have received a letter from great northern services regarding my penalty and stated that there is no scope for appeal in that penalty.

 

[island]

This has long past the stage where any appeal is possible and a court has heard the case. You now have a criminal conviction and criminal record, and you owe £780.10. You have four options.

1. Continue to take no action and ignore the situation. This will result in court officers (bailiffs) being sent to try to take your possessions and sell them to pay the money you owe. If they can't take enough things, the next stage will probably be officers showing up to arrest you, put you in cells overnight, and take you to the court which will want a good explanation as to why you've been ignoring them.
2. Pay the £780.10 and that will put an end to the matter.
3. Ask the court for time to pay, or to reduce the fine on the grounds of your low income. This should be in writing and accompanied by a form MC100 listing your income and expenses. You can download the form from the government website.
4. Ask the court to reopen the case in the interests of justice (a "section 142 application") and hear it again. This will be at the discretion of the court and is not guaranteed to work.

As you have known about the criminal case for more than 21 days, one of the other options that would have been open to you at an earlier stage, a "statutory declaration" of ignorance of the proceedings, is not now available as you've run out of time, so I won't add anything on that.

 

[Haywain]

We need the OP to clarify what is meant by this, and whether they did in fact submit any appeal at all (why would they receive a letter saying there is no scope for appeal?).

I am guessing that refers to the letter sent on 3rd November (referenced in the letter posted above) which would have been sent when the PF was out of time for an appeal.

 

[Puffing Devil]

I am guessing that refers to the letter sent on 3rd November (referenced in the letter posted above) which would have been sent when the PF was out of time for an appeal.

That's part of the puzzle that's missing.

Unfortunately, this looks like the OP had an Ostrich approach to the matter.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Yes there would be an issue as they wouldn't be travelling together.

It's very simple - you have to travel together, so I'm not sure what you're original point was trying to make about "something being off".

Because they appear to have paid four thirds of the required fare. In other words they've overpaid, the railway has gained money on this. And they still want more.

 

[John R]

Because they appear to have paid four thirds of the required fare. In other words they've overpaid, the railway has gained money on this. And they still want more.

How does the railway know that the other person didn’t travel? Given railcards are often not asked for, it’s perfectly possible. Ultimately the ticket they used was issued at a discount, and they didn’t comply with the terms to get that discount.

 

[island]

Because they appear to have paid four thirds of the required fare. In other words they've overpaid, the railway has gained money on this. And they still want more.

But we don’t know whether this is actually true. We don’t know whether the other ticket was presented. We don’t know whether the other party travelled. So you cannot safely conclude what you have written.

Also, it takes two to tango. The OP does not seem to have engaged with the process to a great degree.

 

[Hadders]

If @Vishalini was in possession of both tickets when they were stopped then there’s an argument that no further action should be taken.

If they were only in possession of one ticket then my view is the train company is correct to follow the matter up.

 

[Haywain]

If @Vishalini was in possession of both tickets when they were stopped then there’s an argument that no further action should be taken.

If they were only in possession of one ticket then my view is the train company is correct to follow the matter up.

I agree with this but the fact that a Penalty Fare was issued and, seemingly, not appealed does complicate the issue.

 

[Deafdoggie]

How does the railway know that the other person didn’t travel? Given railcards are often not asked for, it’s perfectly possible. Ultimately the ticket they used was issued at a discount, and they didn’t comply with the terms to get that discount.

But we don’t know whether this is actually true. We don’t know whether the other ticket was presented. We don’t know whether the other party travelled. So you cannot safely conclude what you have written.

Also, it takes two to tango. The OP does not seem to have engaged with the process to a great degree.

This is the question I was asking. If they had both tickets and the railcard? They say they showed the railcard, and they haven't answered if they had both tickets or had been able to purchase just one somehow.

 

[Hadders]

It’s difficult to comment further until @Vishalini returns and clarifies things.

Issuing a Penalty Fare was not wrong, but the issue could possibly have been sorted with an appeal for exceptional reasons, or by engaging with GTR.

It appears that no attempt to appeal or engage has taken place which is why the matter ended up being escalated to court.

 

[Vishalini]

There appear to be documents missing here unless you missed the court summons. Also, please post the letter in which you were told there were no grounds to appeal your initial penalty. As you were issued a penalty fare and appealed, the prosecution would not be valid.

Hello Devil,

The document which i have received from GX on 20 November 2023 for penalty fare issued 10-Oct-2023 state's to pay before 03-dec-2023 to avoid criminal proceedings. They just mentioned how to pay I havent got any chance to prove myself for gulity nor for appealing the issue were I did not get source to contact for appealing in that document. They clearly mentioned this is only a payment line and staff are unable to enter into any conversations regarding any appeal. Due to this i waited for the update where i can get chance for appeal in this time they have increased the penalty up to 500 along with that they mentioned for appealing.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jul 2024 ==

As far as the railway is concerned, they could both be using the tickets but travelling at different times, so they were both getting a discount they were not entitled to.

i have just paid for single ticket but then when tickent inspector asked me railcard i showed together railcard which i was having.

 

[island]

i have just paid for single ticket with together railcard

It isn't possible to buy one ticket with a Two Together Railcard.

The fare you paid shows you applied a Railcard discount to your purchase, so you must have chosen some other kind of Railcard.

Please see what I wrote in post 14 above where you can find details of all the options now open to you.

 

[Vishalini]

This has long past the stage where any appeal is possible and a court has heard the case. You now have a criminal conviction and criminal record, and you owe £780.10. You have four options.

1. Continue to take no action and ignore the situation. This will result in court officers (bailiffs) being sent to try to take your possessions and sell them to pay the money you owe. If they can't take enough things, the next stage will probably be officers showing up to arrest you, put you in cells overnight, and take you to the court which will want a good explanation as to why you've been ignoring them.
2. Pay the £780.10 and that will put an end to the matter.
3. Ask the court for time to pay, or to reduce the fine on the grounds of your low income. This should be in writing and accompanied by a form MC100 listing your income and expenses. You can download the form from the government website.
4. Ask the court to reopen the case in the interests of justice (a "section 142 application") and hear it again. This will be at the discretion of the court and is not guaranteed to work.

As you have known about the criminal case for more than 21 days, one of the other options that would have been open to you at an earlier stage, a "statutory declaration" of ignorance of the proceedings, is not now available as you've run out of time, so I won't add anything on that.

yeah i will do that thank you

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@Vishalini. Reckon that you should have appealed within 21 days of 10OCT2023 when the Penalty Fare was originally issued. (Have we seen this paperwork, by the way?) The letter attachment dated 20NOV2023 from Govia Thameslink was merely a reminder that you now had an amount of money to pay. Too late to appeal then.

Seems that you neither appealed the Penalty Fare in time, or paid the amount due, which would have resolved the matter, which has now significantly escalated.

 

[The exile]

So if both tickets were shown and both were clipped, there's no issue?
As the railcard was shown, they couldn't both be shown independently anyway

They could, although the logistics would be a bit complicated.

 

[Puffing Devil]

This is a sorry tale of not wholly understanding the systems and processes in another country and the danger of ignoring official paperwork, especially that from the courts.

As you're at university, I advise you to get to the Student Union and ask for help there as soon as possible. They may have free or subsidised legal advice.

There may be a way back from the top of the mountain, but it will still cost time and money.

I would not rely on advice from an internet forum to untangle this as it's gone so far.

Get professional help.

 

[JBuchananGB]

The original amount which you owe to the Court in fines etc. was £470.10. As you ignored that, additional fees have been added bringing it to over £780. If you pay that now the matter will be closed. If you want to engage with the Court Service then use the contact details on the "Further Steps Notice" from the London Collection and Compliance Centre, dated 25 April 2024. People on this forum probably can't assist much further. Your experience is a salutary lesson to others as to what happens when you fail to pay a Penalty Fare, and then just go on ignoring every letter you receive about the subject.