GTR Penalty fare. Pls help

[plshelp123]

I'm going to be as upfront and honest as i can about my situation.

I'm 16 and was recently caught by revenue protection officers on a train from Balcombe to Farringdon and handed a £65 penalty fare notice.
I've been dodging train fares for a few months now and using it to explore new parts of the UK away from the boring town i live in and because I find the train travel relaxing in general. I believe this is morally justified as the train company does not lose any money from me doing this as I rarely have the money for a ticket and would not be able to travel if i had to pay. I understand that this is all in all unethical but I didn't see much harm in it personally.

The revenue officer was very nice to me and i mostly cooperated with him. He was wearing a body cam, and although i was 16 and sitting in the 1st class section (the section was empty) he gave me child fine for the standard class section.
Although i fully accept responsibility for the fine I am looking for any way out of it at the moment as i do not have the money or a source of income to pay it and am worried about the fine increasing and potentially being prosecuted.

I've been looking into making an appeal as at the very least it will give me more time to scrape the money together. I've done my own digging around the forum, reading about other peoples similar experiences to mine and I know that I have no grounds to dispute the fine but I thought i would ask on here myself anyway as a hail mary as maybe there is something specific to my case that could be grounds for an appeal. If there is no chance of me disputing my fine successfully what would be the best excuse for an appeal aimed at delaying the fine?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

 

[Starmill]

If you've read the other threads, you may have realised that the best way is to post a copy of the Penalty Fare with your name and any other details blocked out.

Also my strong recommendation would be to find something else to do with your spare time, such as using the bus instead, or save up or get a job so you can buy tickets in future. As you seem to be under 18, you'd qualify for the 16-17 Saver discount card. Further information at https://www.16-17saver.co.uk/

 

[WesternLancer]

I'm going to be as upfront and honest as i can about my situation.

I'm 16 and was recently caught by revenue protection officers on a train from Balcombe to Farringdon and handed a £65 penalty fare notice.
I've been dodging train fares for a few months now and using it to explore new parts of the UK away from the boring town i live in and because I find the train travel relaxing in general. I believe this is morally justified as the train company does not lose any money from me doing this as I rarely have the money for a ticket and would not be able to travel if i had to pay. I understand that this is all in all unethical but I didn't see much harm in it personally.

The revenue officer was very nice to me and i mostly cooperated with him. He was wearing a body cam, and although i was 16 and sitting in the 1st class section (the section was empty) he gave me child fine for the standard class section.
Although i fully accept responsibility for the fine I am looking for any way out of it at the moment as i do not have the money or a source of income to pay it and am worried about the fine increasing and potentially being prosecuted.

I've been looking into making an appeal as at the very least it will give me more time to scrape the money together. I've done my own digging around the forum, reading about other peoples similar experiences to mine and I know that I have no grounds to dispute the fine but I thought i would ask on here myself anyway as a hail mary as maybe there is something specific to my case that could be grounds for an appeal. If there is no chance of me disputing my fine successfully what would be the best excuse for an appeal aimed at delaying the fine?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

Any appeal you submit will delay the payment deadline but there is no basis I can see on which you can appeal that’s likely to succeed so you could give any excuse you like as all will be rejected.

You do need to stop doing this however. And it’s even more stupid to draw additional attention to yourself by sitting in first class. That’s the area ticket checks will happen in first of all on any train as there is low hanging fruit to find there.

 

[furlong]

Lots to unpack here, but scrape the money together somehow, pay it and your problem is over - until you do it again and get caught again.
An appeal on the grounds that the signage does not comply with the regulations would be one easy way to appeal in order to give you more time to pay even if you lose.
(There may also be difficulties enforcing payment given your age.)

The inspector had to follow some strict regulations regarding the notice. If he disregarded any of the rules even if this was in your favour, that could give you grounds for appeal as he isn't allowed to disregard them (and I doubt he would have, even if that's what you think happened).

What was the EXACT amount of money (you say approx £65) printed on the notice? What two stations does it say that applies between - the two you mentioned? Does it say Adult or Child on it? What time of day was it? What reason does it give for the notice?

Did you give your correct date of birth, and is that printed on the notice, showing he knew you are 16?

(It might be easier to upload a photo of the notice covering up personal details, reference numbers etc.)

 

[Fawkes Cat]

. I believe this is morally justified as the train company does not lose any money from me doing this as I rarely have the money for a ticket and would not be able to travel if i had to pay. I understand that this is all in all unethical but I didn't see much harm in it personally.

Just to pick up on this point, it's important to recognise that in practice the law takes very little notice of people's personal moral and ethical views. If you want to avoid trouble then you need to follow the rules in the same way as everyone else does. If you think the rules are wrong then the solution is not ignoring them and hoping that they will go away, but getting involved in the political process to persuade MPs to change the law.

 

[Snow1964]

I suggest you accept what you did was wrong, are lucky it wasn't taken further (possible court and compensation etc)

Find the money, if necessary borrow a fiver from multiple friends, to get enough to pay penalty before it increases, then find yourself a Saturday job to pay them back. It might sound tough but you have had relatively cheap solution, so accept it as a life lesson in following the rules. I am not judging, we all do things when we are young that we regret as stupid when you are older and wiser.

 

[WesternLancer]

In terms of travelling about by train to explore areas you can still do this very cheaply with legitimate tickets from Balcombe area.

Check out Southern Daysave tickets and I think there is also a Thameslink rover ticket that’s very cheap iirc. Also as mentioned get a 16-17 saver Railcard.

 

[Pushpit]

I know that I have no grounds to dispute the fine but I thought i would ask on here myself anyway as a hail mary as maybe there is something specific to my case that could be grounds for an appeal. If there is no chance of me disputing my fine successfully what would be the best excuse for an appeal aimed at delaying the fine?

To be clear, you have had your Hail Mary. You presumably have a penalty fare (not a fine) for £50 plus £15 fare, which on the distance concerned is pretty good going. Many, many people here have far worse outcomes, and since this seems not to be your first gig, the risk factors here are significant. To answer your question, it may be there are some technical mistakes on your penalty fare, but we would need to see a redacted copy of iit to be sure. I can't see a £15 child fare for the route, for example. Also an appeal means a criminal prosecution goes out of scope, and you are theoretically still at risk of that, as well as giving you more time to pay. However since you got your Hail Mary here, I wouldn't be risking that she rescinds your fortunate outcome. Getting a criminal record at your age really isn't a good idea.

 

[Haywain]

I can't see a £15 child fare

Which wouldn’t apply to a 16 year old.

 

[plshelp123]

If you've read the other threads, you may have realised that the best way is to post a copy of the Penalty Fare with your name and any other details blocked out.

 

[Pushpit]

I think the next stop on that train service is East Croydon. Did the RPI give you the option of a ticket to East Croydon?

There is an off peak single fare of £15.20, which isn't a Child fare, so there are a couple of potential discrepancies there.

But personally apart from appealing to prevent prosecution / delay payment, I would otherwise consider myself fortunate to have the option of just paying the penalty fare.

 

[Starmill]

The default for on-train Penalty Fares is to issue them from where you started to the next station. Was this the case? Or was there any conversation regarding your destination at the time?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jan 2025 ==

I think the next stop on that train service is East Croydon. Did the RPI give you the option of a ticket to East Croydon?

There is an off peak single fare of £15.20, which isn't a Child fare, so there are a couple of potential discrepancies there.

But personally apart from appealing to prevent prosecution / delay payment, I would otherwise consider myself fortunate to have the option of just paying the penalty fare.

Under the rules it does seem likely that the OP can submit an appeal on one or more of these grounds. In the event that one were successful, they ought to consider themselves exceptionally lucky however.

As advised above, whether the appeal were successful or not, it's of paramount importance that they hold a valid ticket for their journey before boarding the train in future.

 

[Haywain]

There is an off peak single fare of £15.20, which isn't a Child fare, so there are a couple of potential discrepancies there.

The OP is 16 and therefore liable for adult fares.

 

[Starmill]

The OP is 16 and therefore liable for adult fares.

Indeed. The actual error seems to be that the Penalty Fare states child.

 

[Pushpit]

The OP is 16 and therefore liable for adult fares.

Yes, I'm aware, but see post 1 and see the penalty fare ticket. To be clear, in post 1 there is some ambiguity (let's say) on the nature of the conversation between RPI and the OP.

 

[plshelp123]

You do need to stop doing this however. And it’s even more stupid to draw additional attention to yourself by sitting in first class. That’s the area ticket checks will happen in first of all on any train as there is low hanging fruit to find there.

I know, I'm not going to risk a potential criminal record just because I want to go and explore London. I was under the impression that Thameslink doesn't employ ticket inspectors as before this I had never seen one on their trains. I'm feeling very dumb right now for just assuming that was the case. I agree that it was stupid to be sitting in first class but in this situation it wouldn't have mattered. At Gatwick airport a coordinated team of RPOs got onto the train (2 for each carriage) and checked everyone's tickets before East Croydon.

Lots to unpack here, but scrape the money together somehow, pay it and your problem is over - until you do it again and get caught again.
An appeal on the grounds that the signage does not comply with the regulations would be one easy way to appeal in order to give you more time to pay even if you lose.
(There may also be difficulties enforcing payment given your age.)

Interesting, what should I say on the appeal about the signage? I think all the signs at Balcombe are up to standard.

The inspector had to follow some strict regulations regarding the notice. If he disregarded any of the rules even if this was in your favour, that could give you grounds for appeal as he isn't allowed to disregard them (and I doubt he would have, even if that's what you think happened).

What was the EXACT amount of money (you say approx £65) printed on the notice? What two stations does it say that applies between - the two you mentioned? Does it say Adult or Child on it? What time of day was it? What reason does it give for the notice?

Did you give your correct date of birth, and is that printed on the notice, showing he knew you are 16?

Admittedly, when he asked my age originally I said I was 15 to try and avoid an adult fine but when he was collecting the rest of my details i gave him my real date of birth.
The 2 stations I was travelling between were Balcombe and Farringdon and it says this on the PF. The RPO was very nice and professional about it though he did say explicitly that he would give me a standard fine despite me being in the 1st class section. However, I don't want to get him into any trouble through my appeal especially for his act of kindness as that would be very unfair.

Just to pick up on this point, it's important to recognise that in practice the law takes very little notice of people's personal moral and ethical views. If you want to avoid trouble then you need to follow the rules in the same way as everyone else does. If you think the rules are wrong then the solution is not ignoring them and hoping that they will go away, but getting involved in the political process to persuade MPs to change the law.

Yes and I agree that a strict and rigid set of rules do need to be in place for society to function. I was more attempting to explain myself to you the members of this forum rather than any kind of legal defence.

I suggest you accept what you did was wrong, are lucky it wasn't taken further (possible court and compensation etc)

Find the money, if necessary borrow a fiver from multiple friends, to get enough to pay penalty before it increases, then find yourself a Saturday job to pay them back. It might sound tough but you have had relatively cheap solution, so accept it as a life lesson in following the rules. I am not judging, we all do things when we are young that we regret as stupid when you are older and wiser.

I've started saving to pay the money back. I really want to get a part time job somewhere but there's not much around where I live. I've asked around at a couple local businesses but none of them need more workers.

In terms of travelling about by train to explore areas you can still do this very cheaply with legitimate tickets from Balcombe area.

Check out Southern Daysave tickets and I think there is also a Thameslink rover ticket that’s very cheap iirc. Also as mentioned get a 16-17 saver Railcard.

I'll definitely look into that, thank you for the advice!

To be clear, you have had your Hail Mary. You presumably have a penalty fare (not a fine) for £50 plus £15 fare, which on the distance concerned is pretty good going. Many, many people here have far worse outcomes, and since this seems not to be your first gig, the risk factors here are significant. To answer your question, it may be there are some technical mistakes on your penalty fare, but we would need to see a redacted copy of iit to be sure. I can't see a £15 child fare for the route, for example. Also an appeal means a criminal prosecution goes out of scope, and you are theoretically still at risk of that, as well as giving you more time to pay. However since you got your Hail Mary here, I wouldn't be risking that she rescinds your fortunate outcome. Getting a criminal record at your age really isn't a good idea.

Dead right! About a £65 penalty fare notice. I've sent an image of it above. I'm concerned about the criminal prosecution though. I am a repeat offender as I've been going down to brighton or up to london most weekends for a couple months now and wouldn't want to draw more attention to myself. Would an appeal make them start an investigation into me?

 

[AlterEgo]

Dead right! About a £65 penalty fare notice. I've sent an image of it above. I'm concerned about the criminal prosecution though. I am a repeat offender as I've been going down to brighton or up to london most weekends for a couple months now and wouldn't want to draw more attention to myself. Would an appeal make them start an investigation into me?

How would they investigate you if you haven't been buying tickets? Do they have a chip in your brain?

 

[plshelp123]

Yes, I'm aware, but see post 1 and see the penalty fare ticket. To be clear, in post 1 there is some ambiguity (let's say) on the nature of the conversation between RPI and the OP.

Yes I originally told him that I was 15 and that I was going to East Croydon as I was panicking and didn't know what to do. However, after he threatened to get police involved at East croydon I relented and told him my details along with my real date of birth and where i was actually going.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jan 2025 ==

How would they investigate you if you haven't been buying tickets? Do they have a chip in your brain?

No idea. I've read some threads on the forum where people have been given criminal prosecutions out of the blue for repeat fare evading and I dont want to risk that myself.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jan 2025 ==

I think the next stop on that train service is East Croydon. Did the RPI give you the option of a ticket to East Croydon?

Maybe? Its all a blur now.

 

[AlterEgo]

No idea. I've read some threads on the forum where people have been given criminal prosecutions out of the blue for repeat fare evading and I dont want to risk that myself.

Those people have left an audit trail of purchases of short tickets for example, where you have breezed upon trains paying nothing, until you discovered that this has consequences.

 

[plshelp123]

The default for on-train Penalty Fares is to issue them from where you started to the next station. Was this the case? Or was there any conversation regarding your destination at the time?

By the time the RPO got to where I was sitting and got my details we were already past East croydon.

As advised above, whether the appeal were successful or not, it's of paramount importance that they hold a valid ticket for their journey before boarding the train in future.

I have very much learnt my lesson. The only reason I was doing it in the first place was because I thought it was impossible to get caught. I knew several people who were already doing it without issue, I had never seen a ticket inspector on Thameslink trains and I didn't think I was negatively impacting either the train company or fellow passengers through my actions.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jan 2025 ==

Under the rules it does seem likely that the OP can submit an appeal on one or more of these grounds. In the event that one were successful, they ought to consider themselves exceptionally lucky however

What should I say in my appeal and will it get the RPI in any trouble?

 

[WesternLancer]

I don't think an appeal by you will get the RPI into any trouble.

You can't rule out that they might investigate you further but I doubt they will. Pointing out you are in fact over 16 when the PF states child would be unwise as that would be one thing that might trigger further investigations (even if slim chance) - and it is based on your originally lying about your age even if you were then honest a bit later, so personally I would not mention that.

If you want to go through the motions of an Appeal as suggested above submit and Appeal that says for example:

'I do not believe the signage at the station I boarded at is compliant with the Penalty Fare Regulations and I therefore request this Appeal be granted'

They will not grant your appeal in my view, but you will buy some time (maybe 2 to 4 weeks) before you need to pay as the Appeals process stops the clock on the 21 day prompt payment discount deadline.

If you want to be on the safe side on all this, do not Appeal at all, just pay it.

 

[furlong]

Perhaps signage for a simple first appeal - if you read the regulations yourself and look at the sign you may spot that some words that the regulations say must be there are missing from the signs. Then if you want to stretch out the time to pay even more, try a second appeal where you argue that it was not issued in accordance with the regulations because you are an Adult but it states Child on it. (I probably wouldn't raise this on a first appeal, only a later one.) The inspector knew this at the time the penalty was issued proved by the fact that the amount charged was based on the adult fare not the child fare; the regulations require that the PF allow you to travel to your destination; but this PF only allows a child to make the journey not the adult which you are; consequently it was not issued in accordance with the regulations. Then there's a third more technical argument that it should have been issued to the next stop which was presumably London Bridge not Farringdon but in these circumstances that's a difficult argument because the amount of the fare is the same.

If you do appeal and win, you'll still need to pay the fare £15.20 but save the penalty £50 or £100 - and then look on it as a lucky escape. Buy the 16-17 railcard which lets you continue to pay half-fare and look into the DaySave tickets https://www.southernrailway.com/discounts-and-offers/daysave for a day you just want to travel around that part of the network as you please (but note it only includes trains branded Southern - not the Thameslink ones).

 

[Egg Centric]

I really want to get a part time job somewhere but there's not much around where I live.

If you can get to the station to explore you are not as constrained by where you live as you might think - it's not only stockbrokers who are commuters! It might be worth looking at e.g. McDonalds and other fast food restaurants that are near railway stations a few stops from you (or bus stops) - I just checked and there are vacancies in the one in Redhill, for example. Unfortunately as a 16 year old you won't be able to work nights, but these are great "starter" jobs and easy to get for some pocket money and invaluable experience that will suit you well later in life. Alternatively if you have some idea what you want to do when you leave education you may be able to find businesses in that field that are commutable to as well although many will be reluctant to take on a part time student.

 

[some bloke]

an appeal means a criminal prosecution goes out of scope

Appealing doesn't bar prosecution. That only happens where either the first appeal is decided or the appeal body fails to decide within the time limit, and the penalty fare hasn't already been withdrawn.

So in theory, if for example someone notices your date of birth doesn't match "child", there could be a prosecution.

Having said that, train companies and government have not been keen for people under 18 to be prosecuted for these kinds of offences.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jan 2025 ==

The bar on prosecution is in Regulation 11(3):

The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018

These Regulations make provision for the charging of penalty fares for the failure to produce, when required to do so, a ticket or other authority authorising a person to travel by train or to be present in a compulsory ticket area at a station.

www.legislation.gov.uk

 

[Starmill]

You'll need to read the rules linked above and then go back to the station yourself and decide if you think that the signage complies with the rules or not, I think. My guess is that you will lose your appeal at the first line. You can alternatively simply pay within the timeframe offered.

Submitting an appeal is your right under the rules, that in itself isn't going to be an issue the company would care about or try to pin onto their member of staff.

 

[fandroid]

Thameslink don't have guards on their trains but they are very hot on fraudulent travel. That normally means checks at their London stations, but also includes Revenue Inspectors travelling on random trains. As you found out!

 

[thedbdiboy]

Given that by your own admission you've travelled quite a lot without a ticket, £65.20 is an offer you don't want to turn down when compared to the fares you have avoided, especially as by paying it you draw a line under the matter.