GTR Great Northern Key Card "not valid" on VTEC?

[Hitchincommute]

I was perusing the new look Great Northern website when I saw something saying that Key Card season tickets are not valid on VTEC between Kings Cross and Stevenage. Does this mean advancing technology has actually led to a reduction in trains I can use between KX and SVG?

 

[Hadders]

Yes it does. There have been numerous threads on here about it. My advice is not to touch The Key with a barge pole.

The Key can't be used on Stagecoach (90%) operated VTEC between London and Stevenage
It can be used between London and Luton/Bedford on Stagecoach operated EMT.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Yet, although all TOC have been told a ticket is a ticket and you should accept and Retail to any medium.


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[Hadders]

Yet, although all TOC have been told a ticket is a ticket and you should accept and Retail to any medium.


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Yes but what hope is there when GTR say it's not valid on VTEC? What is the average punter supposed to think?

 

[yorkie]

I was perusing the new look Great Northern website when I saw something saying that Key Card season tickets are not valid on VTEC between Kings Cross and Stevenage. Does this mean advancing technology has actually led to a reduction in trains I can use between KX and SVG?

As the flow is priced by GTR, they are not permitted to price their own fare restricted by operator, except by obtaining special permission from the DfT. I doubt they have obtained this, but feel free to ask the DfT (you could send an FOI request).

A very important principle is as follows:

"What counts is the message, not the medium."

If they are selling the same fare, but on a different medium, then the terms are no different to the paper fare.

Roger Ford went on to say:

"So, the message is that if you roll up at a station with an Oyster travel card you are entitled to pay the boundary excess. If your friendly local TOC (and I must try this one the team at Welwyn Garden City) wants proof of the validity of the Travelcard it is up to the managers to provide the ticket office staff with readers"

So if VTEC are unable to read these smart cards, that is an internal matter between the two train companies, GTR & VTEC. Such problems are of absolutely no concern to the customer whatsoever.

Also, don't forget, Consumer Law does apply to rail fares (despite certain people previously claiming otherwise!)

 

[PeterC]

Is there no central control over which formats are approved for inter TOC use?

 

[swt class 450]

Its also worth noting that these GTR Great Northern Key Smartcard tickets between London Terminals and Stevenage are still routed as "Any Permitted" so VTEC have to accept them whether they like it or not.

 

[Hadders]

Its also worth noting that these GTR Great Northern Key Smartcard tickets between London Terminals and Stevenage are still routed as "Any Permitted" so VTEC have to accept them whether they like it or not.

I agree however regular commuters really doesn't want to have to get involved with VTECs gestapo on a regular basis. They just want to get to and from work without hassle and without being accused of being a criminal and having to enter into correspondence with VTEC's Prosecutions Department.

Incidentally, I wonder if a Stevenage-London Terminals season ticket on The Key operates the barriers at Kings Cross St Pancras Underground station as it should be valid via the Underground to Moorgate.

The Key really is best avoided.

 

[Sleepy]

:roll: So why are GN advertising they are not valid ? Think someone should travel Cambridge to kings Cross with a Norwich - London smartcard season and see what GN reaction is !!

 

[yorkie]

:roll: So why are GN advertising they are not valid ? Think someone should travel Cambridge to kings Cross with a Norwich - London smartcard season and see what GN reaction is !!

GTR does whatever it wants, seemingly with impunity. They make up all sorts of lies about validity. I do not know what motivates them to do this.

If only we had an effective regulator, a proper ombudsman, and a passenger watchdog with real powers, to keep rogue train companies like GTR in check. Sadly we have none of those things. So they do what they want, knowing they will get away with it.

And yes I agree, some mystery shopping and asserting of rights would be useful.

 

[island]

What you are entitled to do by law/contract/etc. and what you can actually do in practice without causing yourself a great deal of stress, annoyance, and faff, will in many scenarios not coincide. This is one of them. If you want to use VTEC, you are best advised to stick to paper tickets.

 

[KatieLouLou]

Incidentally, I wonder if a Stevenage-London Terminals season ticket on The Key operates the barriers at Kings Cross St Pancras Underground station as it should be valid via the Underground to Moorgate.

Yes it does, as it does at Highbury, Old Street and Moorgate too.

 

[Hitchincommute]

Very interesting comments all round. Thank you. I went to Hitchin ticket office to ask about the procedure to swap back and I was told the Key Card was changing to one that looked more like an Oyster card and this new one should be accepted on the VTEC services. I will await news on this.

 

[yorkie]

The product must be accepted by VTEC.

The medium is irrelevant (from the customer' point of view; it's an internal rail industry matter)

You could ask them if the product will be any different?

 

[Wallsendmag]

Not sure that it must at the moment as VTEC have no way of verifying that there is actually a ticket on the card . Coincidentally there are two TOCs who refuse to accept m-Tickets even you you can quite clearly see what the ticket is unlike ITSO based tickets.


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[tsr]

Not sure that it must at the moment as VTEC have no way of verifying that there is actually a ticket on the card .

VTEC doesn't necessarily have a say in the matter of validity, if GTR's Great Northern arm are permitted or even required (by contractual obligations) to introduce tickets on the Key which are also valid products for use on VTEC.

VTEC really has a duty to ensure a means of ticket checking is available to their TMs and revenue staff as needed. An Android device equipped with the free ECEBS ticket reader (which can read Key cards) is not an expensive or difficult solution, particularly if their Avantix replacement also involves an Android phone or tablet.

The passenger is also fulfilling their obligations, in the purest sense, if they go about producing a valid ticket for inspection; whether or not VTEC can be bothered to procure devices which can access that ticket is a different matter.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Even GN say the key isn't valid on VTEC it's a GN only product on the ECML so I can't see the problem


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[Hadders]

Even GN say the key isn't valid on VTEC it's a GN only product on the ECML so I can't see the problem


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GN aren't permitted to introduce a 'GN only' product for a flow where they are the lead operator.

 

[yorkie]

Not sure that it must at the moment as VTEC have no way of verifying that there is actually a ticket on the card

The validity of fares is completely removed from the ability (or otherwise) of staff to read the medium on which they are held.

If a fare is held in a format that the DfT has approved, then all train companies on which the fare is valid on, are compelled to accept that fare.

This is an internal matter between GTR and VTEC; it's not the customers problem.

The following principle applies:

"What counts is the message, not the medium."

Coincidentally there are two TOCs who refuse to accept m-Tickets even you you can quite clearly see what the ticket is unlike ITSO based tickets.

Without knowing the fares involved it's difficult to comment.

 

[JaJaWa]

Very interesting comments all round. Thank you. I went to Hitchin ticket office to ask about the procedure to swap back and I was told the Key Card was changing to one that looked more like an Oyster card and this new one should be accepted on the VTEC services. I will await news on this.

It's just a different design printed on it (for some reason they are now issuing separate designs on each of Southern, Thameslink, and Great Northern) but the card is exactly the same inside.

 

[Hitchincommute]

I have emailed DfT to get their thoughts on the matter.

 

[Wallsendmag]

GN aren't permitted to introduce a 'GN only' product for a flow where they are the lead operator.

Yes they are just not a permanent one.

I have emailed DfT to get their thoughts on the matter.

I've a feeling it'll be irrelevant soon.

The validity of fares is completely removed from the ability (or otherwise) of staff to read the medium on which they are held.

If a fare is held in a format that the DfT has approved, then all train companies on which the fare is valid on, are compelled to accept that fare.

This is an internal matter between GTR and VTEC; it's not the customers problem.

The following principle applies:


Without knowing the fares involved it's difficult to comment.

All fares on m-Tickets basically

 

[yorkie]

Yes they are just not a permanent one.

Are they really allowed to introduced a temporary fare which is the same price as the permanent fare yet is more restrictive? This sounds like something that should be investigated as a potential consumer rights issue, if that really is what's being alleged.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Usually it's a cheaper price


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[Hadders]

Usually it's a cheaper price

It's certainly not. An annual season between Stevenage and London Terminals issued on The Key is exactly the same price as the paper version.

The rail industry wants us to pay the same price for a lesser service.

How is that fair, equitable or simple?

 

[swt class 450]

Whilst i know they are legally valid on FHT (just like they are legally valid on VTEC even though they don't want to accept them) can i ask what is First Hull Trains policy on accepting GTR Great Northern key smartcard tickets on their few trains which call at Stevenage? Have they said anything about whether or not they will accept them?

 

[Skimble19]

Whilst i know they are legally valid on FHT (just like they are legally valid on VTEC even though they don't want to accept them) can i ask what is First Hull Trains policy on accepting GTR Great Northern key smartcard tickets on their few trains which call at Stevenage? Have they said anything about whether or not they will accept them?

They don't need to as they're set down only going south and pick up only going north, therefore technically you shouldn't be using them at all to travel only between Kings Cross and Stevenage..

With regards to the OPs question, from what I've heard internally GTR and VTEC have now come to an arrangement and VTEC staff will be given equipment and training to allow The Key to be used on their services reasonably soon.

 

[swt class 450]

They don't need to as they're set down only going south and pick up only going north, therefore technically you shouldn't be using them at all to travel only between Kings Cross and Stevenage..

With regards to the OPs question, from what I've heard internally GTR and VTEC have now come to an arrangement and VTEC staff will be given equipment and training to allow The Key to be used on their services reasonably soon.

I don't think they are pick up only or set down only any more. According to the current First Hull Trains timetable - http://www.hulltrains.co.uk/media/181101/hull_trains_timetable_11_dec_16_-_13_may_2017.pdf - there is no mention of this being the case at all. Good to hear though that VTEC staff will be given readers soon! I cant believe it has taken this long!

 

[Skimble19]

I don't think they are pick up only or set down only any more. According to the current First Hull Trains timetable - http://www.hulltrains.co.uk/media/181101/hull_trains_timetable_11_dec_16_-_13_may_2017.pdf - there is no mention of this being the case at all. Good to hear though that VTEC staff will be given readers soon! I cant believe it has taken this long!

Well you're right it certainly doesn't say it there - we haven't been told it's changed, I'll ask about this tomorrow and get some clarification. Southbound services weren't showing up on the CIS a few weeks ago (other than to say it may not stop!), haven't been there at the times they arrive to see them since though.

Indeed, the amount of people with The Key at Stevenage is lower than most places at the moment, I suspect once it's possible to use it on VTEC usage will probably go up quite a bit.

 

[yorkie]

It is possible to use it on any operator, not just GTR.

It's just a medium.

What matters is the product.