GSM-R Emergency Call

[JamesTT]

If the GSM-R Emergency call button is pressed over what area does it effect trains?

 

[Dave1987]

If the GSM-R Emergency call button is pressed over what area does it effect trains?

The cell its activated in and the neighbouring two cells, all trains in those cells when the EGC is activated.

 

[Sunset route]

The cell its activated in and the neighbouring two cells, all trains in those cells when the EGC is activated.

Yeah that s what it says in the handbook, meanwhile back on the real railway things can be a little hit and miss, bring back CSR

 

[JamesTT]

Forgive my ignorance but what area is a cell

 

[rebmcr]

Forgive my ignorance but what area is a cell

The signal range of a mast, whose boundary is usually formed by the point where an adjacent mast's signal becomes stronger. The physical size of these cells will be drastically different in practice due to environmental and infrastructure differences.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Does this help?

So if a train driver hits the REC button for say a fatality, it will affect the nearest cell and the two neighbouring cells and it brings all trains to a stand in those cells.

The REC broadcast is heard by all drivers of all trains in those cells, they MUST NOT MOVE until authorised by the signallers. If it involves a fatality it can be most distressing to hear one of your colleagues in real distress, in those cases, the signaller will make the call short as possible and then contact the driver concerned directly to avoid upsetting other drivers further.

 

[A-driver]

This is why there is such a major issue involving going out of service when a GSMR connects to the wrong cell as discussed in other threads. A busy area like central London can see a train at belle isle on the ECML drifting into the radio area for ashford, wilsden or West Hampstead. When this happens if the driver hits the emergency call button it will not affect the lines the train is actually on but instead other lines.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Hit it near Queenstown Road, it shuts Waterloo, Victoria, Charing Cross, (purportedly) London Bridge, West & South London Lines too.

Basically it causes chaos/mayhem, most of which is completely unnecessary.

To me it's overly complicated and overkill, I mean why do we need 4 ways to call a signaller?

 

[JamesTT]

Thank you very much for the info

 

[Johncleesefan]

We had this discussion in training as to which button you would press for a fatality (and not affecting other trains ie single line) yellow or red. Half said yellow and half (me included) said red. To me its the most you can possibly do and in a coroners court will defend you when asked.

 

[Llanigraham]

We had this discussion in training as to which button you would press for a fatality (and not affecting other trains ie single line) yellow or red. Half said yellow and half (me included) said red. To me its the most you can possibly do and in a coroners court will defend you when asked.

Especially as only a Dr/Paramedic can make the final decision over whether someone is dead or not. They could still be alive.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

I'd say that if, the bits of head are in one place, the feet and arms, hands etc are spread over half a mile after being hit at a relatively high speed, you won't need a paramedic to declare the person deceased.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I'd say that if, the bits of head are in one place, the feet and arms, hands etc are spread over half a mile after being hit at a relatively high speed, you won't need a paramedic to declare the person deceased.

You'll still need a paramedic or doctor to declare the person deceased before the body parts can be moved or cleaned up.

 

[Dave1987]

Yeah that s what it says in the handbook, meanwhile back on the real railway things can be a little hit and miss, bring back CSR

Hell no, CSR was like having two cups and a piece of string! GSMR is far from the perfect system they made it out to be but it's far better than what it replaced.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

The call quality may be there, but why 4 different methods of contacting the signaller, I can understand an urgent call & REC call for dire emergencies, but then there's the phone book & 1-2-1 for normal stuff.

 

[Johncleesefan]

What's the 4th way?

I get emergency, priority and normal

 

[HarleyDavidson]

What's the 4th way?

I get emergency, priority and normal

Phone books.

 

[Johncleesefan]

Would that differ from normal call to signaller? Forgive my ignorance

 

[A-driver]

Would that differ from normal call to signaller? Forgive my ignorance

Only if you find yourself picking up the wrong area. Then you would use the phone book to call the correct signaller.

 

[RPM]

We had this discussion in training as to which button you would press for a fatality (and not affecting other trains ie single line) yellow or red. Half said yellow and half (me included) said red. To me its the most you can possibly do and in a coroners court will defend you when asked.

I agree with you. However, in more general terms this is symptomatic of the rather nebulous distinction between what constitutes a red button situation and what constitutes a yellow button situation. In a way it is nice that drivers are allowed to exercise some judgement, but the flip side is that it leaves us open to post-incident criticism when somebody in a nice cozy office, enjoying both 20/20 hindsight and ample time to weigh the options, decides that the driver made the wrong call (excuse the pun).

 

[Llanigraham]

I'd say that if, the bits of head are in one place, the feet and arms, hands etc are spread over half a mile after being hit at a relatively high speed, you won't need a paramedic to declare the person deceased.

Yes you do.
It is a legal requirement.
(and yes I have experienced it, but not on the railway)

 

[SPADTrap]

I agree with you. However, in more general terms this is symptomatic of the rather nebulous distinction between what constitutes a red button situation and what constitutes a yellow button situation. In a way it is nice that drivers are allowed to exercise some judgement, but the flip side is that it leaves us open to post-incident criticism when somebody in a nice cozy office, enjoying both 20/20 hindsight and ample time to weigh the options, decides that the driver made the wrong call (excuse the pun).

I very much felt this pressure when I first used the GSM-R red button shortly after qualifying but I made it very clear to those asking why I felt I needed to use the red button and thankfully no one questioned it.

My rules trainer and minder both told me that if I felt it was necessary then use it and if they subsequently say you shouldn't have then you can simply reply 'OK next time in that scenario I won't' and that is that. Didn't stop me feeling pretty vulnerable and open to criticism for a while though. Now I have that experience though I'll use it confidently when I feel the need. I think it is fair to say that if we as professional drivers press the red button then we need it, we're all aware of what it does and that certainly hit home for me when I saw the LOROL unit stopped on a bridge over me!

 

[MrPIC]

When I was involved in a fatality a few months back I pressed the red button without hesitation. As has been stated, I didn't know whether the person was dead or not, what the circumstances surrounding the incident were (ie suspicious etc) and you have to think what you want to do. I wanted to stop all trains, and thats what the REGC does. Thats the criteria I use to determine if red button is appropriate; do I want to stop all trains? Yes? Red button.
As has been said, the worst that can happen is that post incident you will be told next time use the urgent call, but at least this time you did the most "safety" thing you could =)

 

[FordFocus]

If I had a fatality on a single line, it would a yellow button. No need for other drivers to hear details if it won't affect their trains. Plus I'd like that personal line to the signaller so we can discuss details.

 

[A-driver]

There is an agreement between all TOCs/focs, NR and Aslef that no driver will ever be disciplined for using the red button. The only problem it will cause is a delay but it's much better to be over cautious and press it when perhaps a yellow button would do but could be disastrous to hesitate and end up with an accident which could have been prevented by pressing it immediately.

As far as I'm concerned, if you are considering it, just press it. You won't get any grief for it and the worse outcome is a few delay minutes and some ribbing in the messroom. Far better an outcome than the alternative.

 

[Johncleesefan]

If I had a fatality on a single line, it would a yellow button. No need for other drivers to hear details if it won't affect their trains. Plus I'd like that personal line to the signaller so we can discuss details.

Still a red button moment for me personally, its the most restrictive thing you can do, I know it may not save any additional time but it would cut out a potential yellow call already talking to signaller

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Especially as only a Dr/Paramedic can make the final decision over whether someone is dead or not. They could still be alive.

incorrect

anyone with suitable training can verify the fact of death (plenty of Registered Nurses have the bit of paper saying they can and a plenty more know the procedures , ditto Ambulance techs , also PC Plod can verify death in various circumstances and there are others who have training to identify 'condition incompatible with life' and not start resus efforts) it;s dotting is and crossing ts time to get someone to do the ROLE paperwork when someone is evisirated / spread across 1/4 mile of track / road

only a Doctor or HM coroner can certify the cause of the death

 

[Dave1987]

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[tsr]

A collision with a person is well within the scope of an accident as defined by the Rule Book, and the subsequent actions required include the protection of lines obstructed by the accident. I would very much argue that it is entirely justified to protect lines on the basis that other drivers' progress will be obstructed with whatever remains of a person involved in such an incident (something which on more than one occasion has caused further distress, injury, damage and/or contamination). Therefore I would have no hesitation whatsoever to push the red button to protect all affected lines.

The only time in recent months I have considered making a GSM-R emergency call has been when I suspected my train was catching fire and an evacuation would have resulted in a high risk of someone hit by a train. As it turned out, it didn't escalate and therefore I didn't have to. I've only dealt with the effects of people trespassing and attempting suicide and luckily have never been directly involved in stopping trains involved when somebody has been struck by one.

 

[A-driver]

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I disagree on one main point. With any incident, it's very important the driver covers themselves from a safety POV to the extent than no one can say 'the outcome would have been safer had you done this'. The red button is something that should be done immediately after any incident which may endanger any train OR life. The fact that it stops all trains is a secondary function.