groupsave not valid on XC?

[planetf1]

At the weekend I went to buy a ticket for CFR-brockenhurst (cheap day return). Though 2 of the 3 of us had railcards, it was pointed out a groupsave was cheaper as 3 of us get discounts. Super.

Change is at SOA

However I was also told the ticket (sold by SWR) wasn't valid on XC. As it happens that wasn't an issue, but we have previously got the XC from SOA. I couldn't see any endorsement on the ticket, and only a 'Any permitted' designation. It's also marked STD / W SUP OPK DAY R'

Was the staff member correct? This was the first time I'd heard of this, and I'm sure I've changed onto XC before. And if it is true HOW ON EARTH are people meant to know (I see nothing on brfares.com even)

Thanks

 

[swt_passenger]

At the weekend I went to buy a ticket for CFR-brockenhurst (cheap day return). Though 2 of the 3 of us had railcards, it was pointed out a groupsave was cheaper as 3 of us get discounts. Super.

Change is at SOA

However I was also told the ticket (sold by SWR) wasn't valid on XC. As it happens that wasn't an issue, but we have previously got the XC from SOA. I couldn't see any endorsement on the ticket, and only a 'Any permitted' designation. It's also marked STD / W SUP OPK DAY R'

Was the staff member correct? This was the first time I'd heard of this, and I'm sure I've changed onto XC before. And if it is true HOW ON EARTH are people meant to know (I see nothing on brfares.com even)

Thanks

Yes they were correct, it’s been the case for years. For a long time SWT platform displays would advise “groupsave not valid on this train” for XC services. They might still do.

NRES page for groupsave shows many but definitely not all TOCs take part:
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/pr354fdc0a0400020101fea1769fbf60.aspx

 

[mallard]

NRES page for groupsave shows many but definitely not all TOCs take part:
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/pr354fdc0a0400020101fea1769fbf60.aspx

So, in order to know this information:

1. You have to realise that "groupsave" is a "Special Offer" and not just an "ordinary" ticket type as it's often sold.
2. Know that NationalRail.co.uk has a listing of all "Special Offers".
3. Find the offer on the listing, which unhelpfully has no complete alphabetical index, instead being organised by TOC.
4. Cross-reference the list of participating TOCs with the timetable to work out which trains you're allowed to use.

Clearly the railway's commitment to transparency and fairness knows no bounds.

However, section 12 of the NRCoT says:

12.1. Some Tickets require you to travel on a specific train service or services, or the services of a particular Train Company or Companies. This will be made clear to you when you purchase your Ticket.

12.2. Otherwise, you are allowed to make your journey on the services of any Train Company covering the journey you are making on the date(s) and by the route(s) on which your Ticket is valid.

Therefore, if you are not told about restrictions to particular TOC(s) at the time of purchase (so a tannoy announcement on the platform after purchase is not sufficient) you are entitled to use the ticket on any train (within the context of 12.2). Proving that you weren't advised at the time is another matter, of course...

 

[swt_passenger]

I’m not defending the system, just explaining that non-availability on some TOCs isn’t new or recent.

As we know from other threads, there are also TOCs that have a completely different group discount system which confusingly uses the same name, eg EMT.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As I've said before it could really do with being rolled out across all TOCs as the standard scheme and replacing all other group travel setups.

 

[Kite159]

Yes they were correct, it’s been the case for years. For a long time SWT platform displays would advise “groupsave not valid on this train” for XC services. They might still do.

NRES page for groupsave shows many but definitely not all TOCs take part:
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/pr354fdc0a0400020101fea1769fbf60.aspx

They certainly do at Basingstoke, and maybe even at Reading.

 

[swt_passenger]

They certainly do at Basingstoke, and maybe even at Reading.

I’ll need to listen out for it, I’ve been using Eastleigh a lot recently where it wouldn’t normally be needed.

 

[planetf1]

Thanks for the info. Knows no bounds indeed!

Very surprised there isn't any kind of endordement code on the ticket or 'valid SWR only' ? I'm sure I've seen some tickets with that on.

Ah I can see https://www.southwesternrailway.com/train-tickets/cheap-train-tickets/groupsave-and-group-travel which confirms the tickets are valid on many but not all companies (academic for this route) -

I don't think I'd feel too bad had I bought them, got onto XC and not been told given the otherwise difficulty in knowing!
Sigh

 

[gray1404]

You say there were 3 of you travelling and 2 of you had railcards? Which railcards were held. I am wondered if it really was cheaper to use group save over vs 2 railcard discount tickets and one undiscounted ticket. Is group save still only 25% discount whereas a railcard is 1/3rd off?

 

[planetf1]

Apologies. My error. Good spot. 3 of us usually do the trip but this time there were 4

 

[A Challenge]

GSV is a third.

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

They certainly do at Basingstoke, and maybe even at Reading.

Can confirm this on some services out of Reading, especially in the southbound direction.

 

[cactustwirly]

You say there were 3 of you travelling and 2 of you had railcards? Which railcards were held. I am wondered if it really was cheaper to use group save over vs 2 railcard discount tickets and one undiscounted ticket. Is group save still only 25% discount whereas a railcard is 1/3rd off?

No Groupsave gives you a third off, so would have been cheaper than the railcards

 

[robbeech]

What’s the (both official and accepted internal) protocol for this on a train that doesn’t accept the tickets? Excess to 3 full price or 3 new tickets. The former you’d likely accept but the latter you’d be thinking about a complaint if you were not told about this when you purchased the ticket. In any case it appears you were told which in this case is very good.

 

[[.n]]

Yes they were correct, it’s been the case for years. For a long time SWT platform displays would advise “groupsave not valid on this train” for XC services. They might still do.

They definitely still do show the message at Brockenhurst (going North anyway)

 

[CyrusWuff]

What’s the (both official and accepted internal) protocol for this on a train that doesn’t accept the tickets? Excess to 3 full price or 3 new tickets.

Having had this conversation a couple of weeks back, XC's official policy is to sell new tickets and advise you to approach the original retailer for a refund.

 

[Jonfun]

An innovative solution could be an agreement where any Groupsave tickets found on an operator where they're not valid are withdrawn, a valid replacement given to the passenger at no charge, and the balance due billed to whoever retailed the original ticket for failing to inform the passenger of the restrictions.

 

[A Challenge]

Could something like GSVTOCSONLY be the default route for any cuerentcu ANY PERMITTED ticket, and other tickets looked at on a case by case only. Whether this would make it i enforcable (or even possible) if the list of TOCs isn't there as well I don't know, but it could work?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Could something like GSVTOCSONLY be the default route for any cuerentcu ANY PERMITTED ticket, and other tickets looked at on a case by case only. Whether this would make it i enforcable (or even possible) if the list of TOCs isn't there as well I don't know, but it could work?

I think that would be clear enough to count for the purposes of NRCoT 13, as long as there is also a linked restriction code that defines what those TOCs are. The alternative which remains open to the TOCs is to sell GroupSave tickets under a different set of conditions of carriage to the NRCoT, à la Megatrain.

But they can't have their cake and eat it, having GroupSave as Any Permitted, and yet it not being valid on all TOCs.

 

[GoneSouth]

I noticed the scrolling display at Cheltenham included the message 'Groupsave tickets are not valid on this service' when boarding a Glasgow bound train last week. Don't remember seeing this before and I've used a lot of XC trains over the years.

The message had the effect of making me worry that my ticket was also not valid. I had an off peak ticket and was wondering if the groupsave restriction was due to the train being a peak service which would have invalidated my ticket. Obviously that wasn't the case but all too often these days we are made to feel like we are deliberately attempting to avoid payment by the TOCs, when the reality is staff themselves don't understand the ticketing system.

 

[Parallel]

The ‘Groupsave tickets are NOT valid on this service’ for XC services has been on the GWR station electronic display boards for years.

ATW were another who didn’t do GSV but did a ‘Small group day’ discount - I think it was 25% discount?

 

[fairysdad]

I had a situation with this a few years ago when I was at Bournemouth Uni - a group of us had gone to Southampton for something, and took the train. We bought groupsave tickets; I was fully aware that they were only available on SWT and not XC and made sure everybody else who had the same batch of tickets knew (I think it was three groups of three that went on the train together). We split up and came back at separate times (but still in groups of three!). When my returning group got back to Southampton Central to get the train back to Bournemouth, there was an XC train in the platform about to leave; the guard saw us there and ushered us on through the local door, despite me saying that we couldn't use the ticket on that train. (I was somewhat drunk, being a student on the way home from a night out, so I may not have been altogether that coherent!)

The guard dispatched the train, then checked our tickets to tell us they weren't valid because they were groupsave tickets, so he sold us three separate singles instead. Ignoring the fact that he sold us a Bournemouth to Southampton ticket as opposed to the other way around, given that he - admittedly, doing us a favour - encouraged us to get on the train even though I said our tickets weren't valid, surely it wasn't our fault that our tickets weren't valid on his train so he shouldn't have sold us new ones.