Group Bourdon For Conductors

[matkirk]

Hi All,

Just a quick question. I can understand the Group Bourdon test for drivers, but why do they expect conductors to take the test?

It seems a different skill set (dealing with difficult situations and a variety of different people) would be more important?

Any ideas?

 

[DunfordBridge]

Very good question. I can see why a guard needs to concentrate in terms of understanding passenger requirements and performing mental arithmetic but there is no real demand for sustained attention unless the conductor is working an intensive route. No doubt guards everywhere are going to be shouting umbrage.

The way I see it, the capacity for attention switching would be more useful, namely interacting with the passengers, using the ticket machine and trying to keep stock of your location, or more accurately the location of the train in relation to stations.

 

[LowLevel]

Try doing 75 to 100 dispatches a shift while trying to answer questions, do tickets and problem solve and you probably have an answer!

 

[richie26188]

Concentration levels need to remain high at all times. As has been mentioned above one mistake when dispatching a train could change your / someone elses life forever. There is an awful lot more to the job than the obvious.

Just a quick note - You'll have to do ticket / customer service based assessement ontop of GB, some TOCs may opt for SCATT rather than GB for conductor roles.

 

[red2005]

Very good question. I can see why a guard needs to concentrate in terms of understanding passenger requirements and performing mental arithmetic but there is no real demand for sustained attention unless the conductor is working an intensive route. No doubt guards everywhere are going to be shouting umbrage.

The way I see it, the capacity for attention switching would be more useful, namely interacting with the passengers, using the ticket machine and trying to keep stock of your location, or more accurately the location of the train in relation to stations.

not sure what your current role is matey but please please please.....I beg of you.... don't ever try and get a guards job if that's the way you truly see the role he he he

 

[387star]

not sure what your current role is matey but please please please.....I beg of you.... don't ever try and get a guards job if that's the way you truly see the role he he he

 

[muz379]

The skill set for a guard is different from a driver (before anyone jumps in im not saying either is better btw )

the driver needs to be able to concentrate for long periods on a repetitive task .

The Guard needs to be able to constantly switch attention from non safety critical duties like selling tickets and answering questions , to something that is safety critical when they dispatch the train . But on a shift you might dispatch the train 50-100 times . so the task is still repetitive . You might dispatch trains 500 times in a week , so after a while pressing the buttons becomes completely committed to muscle memory so there is a need to be able to demonstrate you can actually concentrate on a repetitive task rather than just pressing buttons in line with your expectations of what always happens during a dispatch .

Like others have said a test that shows your ability to switch between tasks might be better . Like the other day when I had to pause selling a ticket to go and do the doors . But I am unsure if any such test exists .

Is there any chance that the requirement could also date back to days when the guard could ride up front if the AWS was Isolated because of a fault .Because then the guard would need the same level of concentration as the driver to confirm each signal aspect with the driver .

 

[beefton]

I recently did the Conductor assessment with FGW. The SCAAT test formed part of the assessment along with ticket selling and checking tests.

 

[matkirk]

Hey thanks everyone for taking the time to answer, much appreciated.

It really has she some light for me. I could see the multi-tasking and ability to focus under pressure side was critical to the job for safety etc. and I think understand now the Group Bourdon is more than just for repetitive concentration, but more to prove you can concentrate overall for an extended period of time and remain focused even with distractions.

Thanks again everyone for your input.

 

[DunfordBridge]

IT Director, and your point is what exactly, red2005?

 

[red2005]

My point is you either do not know a great deal about the role to make a comment like that and maybe you need educating on it a little or you do know a lot about the role but you'd be a danger to yourself and everybody else should you ever do the job if you cannot see where the high levels of concentration come into the job!

What about monitoring the signals before despatching the train? What about trying to monitor the boarding process whilst you've got passengers in your ear wanting to know where their connection is etc? What about when a guard may be required to walk on a busy railway line to either help protect the train or evacuate passengers? What about the times when the guard had extensive periods of time between stations or long breaks and then he/she is straight back into performing safety critical duties??

All of that Is equally or even more important than selling tickets or " mental arithmetic" and that's whether you are on an intensive line or working one stop

Suppose that's my point really

 

[Monty]

Very good question. I can see why a guard needs to concentrate in terms of understanding passenger requirements and performing mental arithmetic but there is no real demand for sustained attention unless the conductor is working an intensive route. No doubt guards everywhere are going to be shouting umbrage.

The way I see it, the capacity for attention switching would be more useful, namely interacting with the passengers, using the ticket machine and trying to keep stock of your location, or more accurately the location of the train in relation to stations.

Try taking a 12 car train down to Pompy via Eastleigh (via the direct isn't much better), after Basingstoke:

Micheldever - SDO 4
Winchester - Full release
Shawford - SDO 4 (LDO in a 444, admittedly the Portsmouth services rarely if ever stop here but it's also worth remembering if in a 444 the SDO/LDO requirements at different stations change compared to a 450).
Eastleigh - Full release
Hedge End - SDO 8
Botley - SDO 4
Fareham - SDO 8
Portchester - SDO 4
Cosham - SDO 8
Hilsea - SDO 4 (with a 12 car, otherwise full release)
Fratton - SDO 8
Portsmouth and Southsea - Full release
Portsmouth Harbour - Full release

Paying attention or being able to concentrate while carrying out your duties is vital if you are to do it safely. Alton is another good example, a special procedure exists here when arriving and departing from this station with 10 and 12 car trains, if you don't concentrate it can be very easy for you to have a serious door incident..

 

[DunfordBridge]

I do not wish to seem brusque but I am wondering if not everybody reads my posts in considerable detail. I would like to make this quite clear; I am not disputing the levels of concentration required; merely the type of concentration and the duration of the spells of concentration.

Referring to the question posed by the original poster, namely the use of the Group Bourdon test for conductor assessment, this test of which I have had direct experience requires the applicant to concentrate on one item and does not take account of multi-tasking. This is probably why certain companies prefer to use the SCAAT test.

Referring to the example described by red2005 of platform despatch whilst monitoring signals, platform activity and queries from passengers, this example vindicates my belief perfectly well of the need for a guard to switch attention between different sources of information or stimuli. Would anyone lime to comment about the average duration of a train despatch?

To be quite honest, red2005, I found your earlier comments where you pleaded for me to refrain from applying as a guard, to be somewhat derogatory. There is no doubt in my mind that with the appropriate training, that I would be able to perform the duties in a safe and competent manner. I am sure that I have quite a realistic perception of my ability to concentrate to the levels required.

Again, red2005, referring to your example of protecting the train. Exactly how often does a conductor need to walk besides the track with detonators? For example, when the driver has been unable to contact the signaller or the signaller cannot arrange protection. Also, when would the conductor protect the train instead of or as well as the driver?

Monty, thank you for your input. The prospect of guarding a train of twelve carriages does seem somewhat daunting. I have actually been to some of those stations, but as I do not have a book of track diagrams for the Southern region, I would not be aware of the need for selective door opening at the smaller stations.

 

[red2005]

I do not wish to seem brusque but I am wondering if not everybody reads my posts in considerable detail. I would like to make this quite clear; I am not disputing the levels of concentration required; merely the type of concentration and the duration of the spells of concentration.

Referring to the question posed by the original poster, namely the use of the Group Bourdon test for conductor assessment, this test of which I have had direct experience requires the applicant to concentrate on one item and does not take account of multi-tasking. This is probably why certain companies prefer to use the SCAAT test.

Referring to the example described by red2005 of platform despatch whilst monitoring signals, platform activity and queries from passengers, this example vindicates my belief perfectly well of the need for a guard to switch attention between different sources of information or stimuli. Would anyone lime to comment about the average duration of a train despatch?

To be quite honest, red2005, I found your earlier comments where you pleaded for me to refrain from applying as a guard, to be somewhat derogatory. There is no doubt in my mind that with the appropriate training, that I would be able to perform the duties in a safe and competent manner. I am sure that I have quite a realistic perception of my ability to concentrate to the levels required.

Again, red2005, referring to your example of protecting the train. Exactly how often does a conductor need to walk besides the track with detonators? For example, when the driver has been unable to contact the signaller or the signaller cannot arrange protection. Also, when would the conductor protect the train instead of or as well as the driver?

Monty, thank you for your input. The prospect of guarding a train of twelve carriages does seem somewhat daunting. I have actually been to some of those stations, but as I do not have a book of track diagrams for the Southern region, I would not be aware of the need for selective door opening at the smaller stations.

well to be perfectly honest I stand by my comments as they were not meant to be complimentary they were meant to be honest! I wouldn't want a conductor working my train that only saw fit to concentrate if he/she was working an intensive route etc that is an accident waiting to happen! every station has different hazards and you tend to find it is the less intensive routes where a lot of the hazards are! you've gotta be switched on wherever you are working! and what about stations that may have special instructions relating to despatch or relating to only certain doors being released?.....all I saw was a pretty narrow minded point of view/idea on what an important role entails concentration wise! going by what you said mate i'd certainly be asking more questions about what the role is about from the people that do it day in day out and a little less querying about whether there is a need for the levels of concentration skills required, to me it looks like you do not know enough about the role to question the qualities required.

....regardless of how often a guard needs to protect the train the concentration still needs to be there, whether you do it once in your career or 10 times a year the levels of concentration still have to be there! you seem to be pretty hung up on this intensive route thing and only needing concentration on repetitive tasks......that is not what this role is about......it is about having overall concentration whether you are calling at 3 stations a day or 30 and that is something that in my opinion cannot be taught!

it is not a job where attention switching will work......they want you to put 100 percent attention into everything that you are doing!.......they don't want attention switching they would rather 100 percent overall awareness and 100 percent concentration!......attention switching from 1 task to another and then back again is how vital pieces of information are forgotten or mistakenly overlooked and that can lead to accidents.

in my honest opinion the conductor grade is the hardest position on the railway to carry out given the number of safety and customer service duties that must be carried out all at once! you are constantly looking for defects, carrying out safety critical duties and dealing with what could be hundreds of unpredictable, different human beings at once all of which must be carried out with a smiley welcoming face!....if you cannot see why there has to be the levels of concentration required I don't see how you think you could ever become a conductor myself.