Grounds for appeal?

[gray1404]

Friend has been issued with a PF. The ticket inspection took place at a ticket barrier at the end of the journey. However the issuing location is station as issued "on train". Is this a grounds for a appeal?

The stations between which he travelled are correct, as is the fare and class of travel. The grounds information is also correct. There is a statement on how to pay and how appeal.

I've told him in not allowing time to buy a ticket is not a valid excuse for boarding without a ticket. He said the train was early. It arrived early but departed 30 seconds late. I've stressed the importance of buying before boarding when there is a an open ticket office.

His name is spelt incorrectly.

I've asked him to retrace his steps at the station to look for predominant penalty first signage and to photograph any so we can check the wording. Am I correcting saying that the platform that the train departed from must also have a penalty fare notice on it?

If somebody could advise as to the question above about the issuing location being wrong that would be helpful.

Many thanks.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Friend has been issued with a PF. The ticket inspection took place at a ticket barrier at the end of the journey. However the issuing location is station as issued "on train". Is this a grounds for a appeal?

The stations between which he travelled are correct, as is the fare and class of travel. The grounds information is also correct. There is a statement on how to pay and how appeal.

His name is spelt incorrectly.

I've asked him to retrace his steps at the station to look for predominant penalty first signage and to photograph any so we can check the wording. Am I correcting saying that the platform that the train departed from must also have a penalty fare notice on it?

If somebody could advise as to the question above about the issuing location being wrong that would be helpful.

Many thanks.

As we're dealing with a friend of an established member, I hope I can be a little more robust than when dealing directly with a distressed norm who has come to us for help.

The first question is whether your friend was out of order: did they (accidentally or deliberately) fail to pay their train fare when they had an opportunity to?

If so, then you should tell them to suck it up: we don't have a free railway and anyone who thinks otherwise will at some point run into trouble.

But assuming you are reluctant to go there, which of the get out clauses might be helpful?

Their name being recorded wrong is a non-starter: in English law I don't think there's anything special about it except as a useful way of describing the person involved, and it's generally quicker to talk about John Smith, dob <whatever> of <address> rather than trying to describe their physical appearance (height, weight, skin colour, hair (if any, accent and so on). If it's reasonably obvious the pf was made out for them, it's for them.

And we have rarely (if ever) seen success through arguing that the signage wasn't quite right...

Don't give your friend false hope: tell them to accept the consequences of their actions.

 

[gray1404]

As we're dealing with a friend of an established member, I hope I can be a little more robust than when dealing directly with a distressed norm who has come to us for help.

The first question is whether your friend was out of order: did they (accidentally or deliberately) fail to pay their train fare when they had an opportunity to?

If so, then you should tell them to suck it up: we don't have a free railway and anyone who thinks otherwise will at some point run into trouble.

But assuming you are reluctant to go there, which of the get out clauses might be helpful?

Their name being recorded wrong is a non-starter: in English law I don't think there's anything special about it except as a useful way of describing the person involved, and it's generally quicker to talk about John Smith, dob <whatever> of <address> rather than trying to describe their physical appearance (height, weight, skin colour, hair (if any, accent and so on). If it's reasonably obvious the pf was made out for them, it's for them.

And we have rarely (if ever) seen success through arguing that the signage wasn't quite right...

Don't give your friend false hope: tell them to accept the consequences of their actions.

Thanks for your reply. Of course. I've no problem you being more robust with myself.

I've told my friend that not allowing time to buy a ticket is not a valid excuse for boarding without a ticket. He said the train was early. It arrived early but departed 30 seconds late. I've stressed the importance of buying before boarding when there is a an open ticket office. I was very direct in my delivery and told him he's lucky he wasn't reported for prosecution.

I was frustrated because they were traveling to a station with a gate line that is always manned by revenue staff and everybody knows that.

I have not given them any false hope at all and just ask them to send me a copy of the penalty fare notice and check the signage.

So the question is, the issuing location on the PF being incorrect a grounds for appeal? It's listed as on train which is incorrect.

 

[swt_passenger]

I think checking the signage is only relevant where you enter/start, or if there’s somewhere on route where you can interchange without leaving the platform area. I don’t think there’s any obligation to place signs aimed at people leaving a station from the platform area.

 

[gray1404]

I think checking the signage is only relevant where you enter/start, or if there’s somewhere on route where you can interchange without leaving the platform area. I don’t think there’s any obligation to place signs aimed at people leaving a station from the platform area.

That's right I've asked him to check the signage at the starting station. The route in took from the station entrance to the train and also on the platform the train departed from.

 

[furlong]

No different from any other thread - post a redacted PF plus details of the service used and the circumstances under which it was boarded without a ticket for best advice. Signage - photos and locations - at every platform entrance and also "readily visible" to everyone before boarding a service including people changing trains.

I don’t think there’s any obligation to place signs aimed at people leaving a station from the platform area.

I saw a major station the other day where the only PF signage was facing people leaving through a gateline, invisible to people entering. (You can imagine the convenience of putting the notice where the authorised collectors can point to it while issuing PFs but nobody entering gets to see it!)

 

[AlterEgo]

Friend has been issued with a PF. The ticket inspection took place at a ticket barrier at the end of the journey. However the issuing location is station as issued "on train". Is this a grounds for a appeal?

No. The location of issue of a penalty fare isn't in the Regulations.

 

[gray1404]

Thanks for your help guys. The appeal was submitted on the grounds of non compliance of signage and the appeal was upheld at the first appeal stage.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thanks for your help guys. The appeal was submitted on the grounds of non compliance of signage and the appeal was upheld at the first appeal stage.

Which station was involved? It would help to know which stations have been accepted as non compliant.

 

[MotCO]

The outcome of this case is unusual on two grounds- appeal accepted at first appeal, and on the sole grounds of insufficient signage. Thanks for letting us know the outcome.

 

[gray1404]

I was extremely surprised. In fact I didn't believe my friend at first. I said are you sure? Then we sent me the outcome letter. I did put together a robust letter focusing on how the PF was not issued in accordance with the regulations expecting to have to have him send the same wording at appeals 2 and 3.

He has asked that I don't disclose the station at this point. He actually paid the soon after it was issued. So we're awaiting the refund of that. The appeal outcome letter said he would need to contact the TOC if he's paid already.

Do TOCs have to refund a PF that has been paid and successfully appealed within a set amount of time?

So he's done that requesting a refund and asking they make the cheque payable to the correct name as the spelling on the PF notice was incorrect. The fare still payable will be deducted but we've asked they take account of his Railcard. I doubt they will but we'll see.

Thanks for your help and support guys.

 

[Hadders]

It would be useful if you could upload a copy of the appeal that was sent along with the outcome letter.

 

[island]

Do TOCs have to refund a PF that has been paid and successfully appealed within a set amount of time?

There is no specific amount of time to refund so it would default to a reasonable amount of time. My opening gambit would be that as a PF has to be paid within 21 days, any refund should also be paid within 21 days of the appeal succeeding.

 

[blimmo]

Penalty fare regulations part 3, section 16, paragraph 12A:

If the appellant referred to in paragraph (11A) has paid the penalty fare, or any part of it, the operator on whose behalf the penalty fare was charged must repay to the appellant any amount paid that exceeds the amount of the full single fare applicable for their journey within the period of 10 working days, beginning with whichever is the earlier of—

(a)the day on which that operator receives notification that the appeal has been allowed; or

(b)the day on which the time period specified in paragraph 6 of Schedule 2 expires.

The mentioned time period being the time limit for the appeals body making a decision (and not applicable in this case).

 

[island]

Whoops! How did I miss that?

 

[furlong]

Indeed - there must be no requirement to contact the TOC: the repayment follows automatically within that timescale. Otherwise the argument would be that their implementation does not comply with the regulations and therefore no Penalty Fares can be imposed on anyone (and any paid would need refunding) until they comply. In other words, if you don't receive the payment within that timescale, should you wish, you could escalate the matter and cause them a lot of trouble...

 

[gray1404]

Indeed - there must be no requirement to contact the TOC: the repayment follows automatically within that timescale. Otherwise the argument would be that their implementation does not comply with the regulations and therefore no Penalty Fares can be imposed on anyone (and any paid would need refunding) until they comply. In other words, if you don't receive the payment within that timescale, should you wish, you could escalate the matter and cause them a lot of trouble...

Escalate to whom?

My friend has contacted the TOC and they replied saying they required his phone number and email.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Oct 2025 ==

We are now at the 10 day point where my friend has not received his refund of the PF paid. The TOC replied very fast to the initial email sent but is asking for additional data they do not require.

So who is it he needs to report them to for their failure to adhere to the regulations and issue the refund within the time frame set.

Also, is there a complaints procedure for Penalty Services? They are incorrectly advising those who successfully appeal that the onus is on them to make contact with the TOC to receive their refund.