According to the Grimsby Telegraph the incident with the conductor and the youth happened on January the 20th and their was no strike action until May shortly after he was sacked. So what happened in those four months between the incident and his sacking, was he suspended on full pay and why did it take so long to sort out.
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Grimsby train worker sacked, TPE South staff plan strike.
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where the issue is one of competence in a safety critical role I cant see why if one is available and the employee is prepared to accept it then the employee cant be offered an alternative role within the company as that competence is a very specific set of skills and is not necessarily a general reflection on someones character . I know of traincrew who have made errors and and have been offered alternative roles at the company that are not safety critical .
In that event it would be much harder for the union to find something to strike about . and the TOC can redeploy somebody they actually know about the work history of .
Id wager he would have been either suspended on full pay or on light duties whilst any investigation was being carried out .
From jan 20th to the start of may is only really 3 months , and take the time it takes the union to ballot and notify the TOC for strike action to be legal Id say the investigation took 2 months which is not unusually long when something so important is at stake .
Things like this can take their time From my reading of the incident the conductor reported it to control , it can take anywhere up to a week for a report of something of this nature to make it from control to the desk or email inbox of his conductor manager . Following that the incident has to be thoroughly investigated .
Gathering the CCTV evidence can take time as it has to be applied for through the correct channels due to the data protection issue with the images recorded
Speaking to the driver of the train can take time depending on what depot the driver was from and if there is cover available to release them from driving to assist in the investigation .
Carrying out disciplinary hearings can take time especially when you factor in the fact that union reps might need releasing from their duties and the conductor will have to have been given notice of the meeting to prepare their own case
Reaching verdicts can also take time , im sure the conductor manager will not have taken the decision to dismiss one of his conductors lightly
The process will also involve having meetings with people from standards and from HR which all take time to schedule and travel to and from .
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Putting a hypothetical view on this affair, would matters have been handled differently if EMT were the TOC involved?
RJ
Established Member
I'd hope their staff have the compunction to stop the train in these circumstances. But, there are variables - TPE may even have handled it differently if a different guard was involved so it's difficult to say.
There's a strike but trains are running as normal? Doesn't exactly sound like solid support.
plastictaffy
Member
As a Guard, and a member of the RMT myself, I have to say I agree with ComUtor.
When we do our rules course, it is made plain to us what to do in certain situations. This chap (Glenn Watson) didn't follow the rules laid down by his TOC. I'm not sure it required his dismissal, but it certainly required disciplinary action.
I for one wouldn't be voting for strike action for a guy that just didn't do his job properly.
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That's because they have Scab mangers who are not fully trained in the job working trains, just to keep the job going. These are managers that may or not even sign the route or traction they are working on.
These managers are putting YOUR safety at risk.
When we do our rules course, it is made plain to us what to do in certain situations. This chap (Glenn Watson) didn't follow the rules laid down by his TOC. I'm not sure it required his dismissal, but it certainly required disciplinary action.
I for one wouldn't be voting for strike action for a guy that just didn't do his job properly.
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That's because they have Scab mangers who are not fully trained in the job working trains, just to keep the job going. These are managers that may or not even sign the route or traction they are working on.
These managers are putting YOUR safety at risk.
Minilad
Established Member
Are you saying there are TPE managers driving trains without relevant route and/or traction knowledge?
If that is the case then this needs to be reported ASAP
I am sure HMRI would love to hear about it
ANorthernGuard
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At Northernland there are quite a few managers who will travel on a route once every 6 months for "route retention" just incase there is a strike. Good luck to passengers if there was an incident with one of these "management" guards looking after you.
Are you suggesting that they travel it less often than the risk assessment says that they need to? Or are you saying that the risk assessment was flawed?
I don't know about guards, but there are plenty of drivers who retain route knowledge this way.
ANorthernGuard
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They do the absolute bare minimum and only know the absolute bare minimum so yes in some ways the risk assessment is flawed. The training is designed for people who do a route on a reasonably regular basis NOT once every 6 months.
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The only person whoes life was at risk was a stupid 13 year old boy who put himself in that position by surfing. I have not taken much notice before but the gap between the platform and the train is wide enough to fall down and had Glenn pressed the button he could have been thrown off balance and then they would would have had a very nasty mess to clear up, so I think he did the right thing. The safety regulations are okay to use in other circumstances but not on this occasion. One other thing I noticed when using the train at the weekend was that the conductor pressed the okay button twice for the driver to leave the station at Grimsby and then as it set off she put her head out of the window so it would seem that they all do it.
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So he could have been working as normal doing his job for as long as a week before head office knew anything about it.
Absolutely no chance.
Chances are he would have been suspended as soon as his manager became aware there had been an incident . What I meant was that It can take upto a week from his manager deciding he was suspended and commencing an investigation to get the full log from control with details of the conductors report etc .
That being said I have known of a case where the controller has not properly categorized a report of an incident they have received from train crew and the member of train crew has only been pulled in the office once their own paper report of the incident has been reviewed a few days later .
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... and if TPE were acting consistently these managers would be sacked.
No they wouldn't, because they are following the rules.
Some are suggesting that the rules are wrong in this instance. If an accident was caused by a manager acting as a guard then senior management could be in serious trouble. For that reason, having seen how seriously First Directors take safety, I feel sure that any managers who act as guards on train will be, to the best of the company's knowledge, fully competent.
Of course they could be wrong. We shall see.
Technically the managers do sign the route because they comply with whatever rules are in place to retain competency over the routes and traction . For guards at my TOC that means that you have to travel over the route at least once every 6 months . Or you can apply for a route refresh or have the route took off your card . Same with traction
What people are questioning is the safety of that , in that if there is an incident what use is a manager going to be who might not have travelled over the route for 5 months and 29 days .
I do believe there are serious safety questions to be asked of a risk assesment that allows managers to drive and act as the guard of a train if they do not carry out that role over those routes on a day to day basis .
Flamingo
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I know on FGW, managers that are trained to act as guards are trained on the relevant traction and routes, and have to do rides and rules at the appropriate intervals to keep their cards. However, they are not revenue trained, and don't do anything around checking tickets, just getting the train from A to B.
Knowing in other TOCs how people from for example HR who have nothing to do with trains are qualified as guards and only seem to appear when disputes are in the offing it seems a bit off how they manage to disappear afterwards.
The ORR has turned out in the past to inspect TOCs where there has been a dramatic spike in operational incidents during disputes. I know of 'guards' who have mysteriously disappeared when drivers have requested hard copies of their route, traction and rules competencies having done things like announce completely wrong stations during a journey.
I can't comment in specifics unfortunately but some of these people are not competent to be working trains and I don't see why TPE are any different.
The only people who should be working trains in disputes are appropriate operational managers (I accept that he company is obviously going to try and mitigate), not random clerical staff who do the bare minimum to retain competence.
The ORR has turned out in the past to inspect TOCs where there has been a dramatic spike in operational incidents during disputes. I know of 'guards' who have mysteriously disappeared when drivers have requested hard copies of their route, traction and rules competencies having done things like announce completely wrong stations during a journey.
I can't comment in specifics unfortunately but some of these people are not competent to be working trains and I don't see why TPE are any different.
The only people who should be working trains in disputes are appropriate operational managers (I accept that he company is obviously going to try and mitigate), not random clerical staff who do the bare minimum to retain competence.
plastictaffy
Member
I did say may or may not. At no point did I actually say they do not have the relevant route or traction knowledge. However, as has been mentioned before, management generally only work a route regularly enough to make sure they can assess on it. You have to work a route at least that often to keep it on your route card. Make of that what you will.
Good on them for keeping the service going though, eh?? Stars, they are.:roll:
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LowLevel - I know of at least two employes at my place who are not Guards, nor hold safety critical cards, yet during one such dispute, one announced the wrong stations because he didn't know them, and another released the doors of a 12 car on an 8 car platform. She claimed that she did operate the UDS switch, but it failed. It's never failed on anyone, anywhere else before or since, mind you.
Regarding the time between the incident and dismissal. I work in HR but not on the railway and it is possible it has taken that long for a number of reasons.
The time taken for the incident to be reported/filed
Time taken to read up on the incident by management - was the manager who deals with it on holiday?
Has the employee submitted a sick line whilst suspended?
Speaking with the driver of the train - they could be on holiday, off sick etc
Gathering the CCTV of the incident and reviewing it
Conducting an initial investigation interview
Investigating anything raised at the initial investigation or when interviewing the driver about the incident.
Representative availability
The employee asks for an adjournment
Union rep raises something at hearing that needs to be investigated/clarified
Those are just a small amount of things that can happen when conducting an investigation the list is endless. A combination of one or two of them can easily add a couple of weeks onto the timeline.
If the employer has taken too long to complete the process the employee is entitled to complain. ACAS code of conduct states that the process should be conducted in a fair and timely manner etc.
The time taken for the incident to be reported/filed
Time taken to read up on the incident by management - was the manager who deals with it on holiday?
Has the employee submitted a sick line whilst suspended?
Speaking with the driver of the train - they could be on holiday, off sick etc
Gathering the CCTV of the incident and reviewing it
Conducting an initial investigation interview
Investigating anything raised at the initial investigation or when interviewing the driver about the incident.
Representative availability
The employee asks for an adjournment
Union rep raises something at hearing that needs to be investigated/clarified
Those are just a small amount of things that can happen when conducting an investigation the list is endless. A combination of one or two of them can easily add a couple of weeks onto the timeline.
If the employer has taken too long to complete the process the employee is entitled to complain. ACAS code of conduct states that the process should be conducted in a fair and timely manner etc.
I am so glad that you all stick to the rules regardless, just like the Germans did in the concentration camps during that little dispute in the 1940s!
I notice that a few of you wouldn't have minded if the train was stopped and the little darling fell off and was killed, at least the guard would have been in the clear, I mean following orders is the most important thing isn't it!
He had a split second to make the decision and the decision he made caused no harm, can anyone state categorically that if he had made the other decision that the result would have been the same!
You are all looking at it with the benefit of hindsight, something not available at the time!
I notice that a few of you wouldn't have minded if the train was stopped and the little darling fell off and was killed, at least the guard would have been in the clear, I mean following orders is the most important thing isn't it!
He had a split second to make the decision and the decision he made caused no harm, can anyone state categorically that if he had made the other decision that the result would have been the same!
You are all looking at it with the benefit of hindsight, something not available at the time!
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the sniper
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And it's safe to assume that she wouldn't have lost her job, or probably had any real come back whatsoever, for the danger that she put passengers in? Unlike the Guard who's the subject of this thread... It's unfortunate that you can have random managers working trains on the southern end of your TOC, it doesn't happen up north, only Conductor Managers sign the routes/traction.
As people including plastictaffy have said, there's no doubt that this TPE Guard made the wrong decision in that moment, particularly if the reports that have appeared more recently are the truth, but it's the punishment that I have a problem with. I think what people outside the industry won't be aware of is the examples we see internally of varying levels of 'punishments' for similar or worse 'crimes'. I can't speak for TPE, but if this incident and sacking were to have been handed out where I am the grade would be up in arms, mainly because of incidents that folks in other grades and management have gotten away with scot-free, or at least have been moved elsewhere (either promotion or demotion) rather than sacked. I don't like to highlight this example, but some Drivers who have gone from mainline to depot driving jail have far more interesting records than this TPE Guard... Again though, I can't speak for TPE.
Indeed this is the interest I have in this case .IMO he should have been given an alternative role at the company . If he had been "demoted" to a booking office or station staff grade I would not have any sympathy with the strikes because what he did was a clear breach of the rules regardless of if someone got hurt or not .
We can debate the rights and wrongs of him being held to account for his breach but the fact remains in a safety conscious environment like the railway you ignore the rules at your own peril he would have known that just as good as any other train crew know it .
I know of people who have screwed up in safety crit roles much worse than this , accepted a different role in the company and then a few years down the line have ended up with a promotion . I can also mirror your experience of knowing of drivers confined to depots or booking offices or that even got demoted to guards (when that was the done thing ) with records much worse than this .
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Surely, from what has been said in a number of the previous postings, the revenue side of matters is very much secondary to the relevant operational side of the duties carried out by those managers in circumstances that has been discussed at length on this thread.
It is but if the Managers are going to do the job then they should do all of it and lead by example, these are the same Managers who will pull a guard over the coals if they are not doing the job properly. Horses for courses.
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