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Greenford Branch

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The Planner

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You could keep a small length of the second line between West Ealing and Drayton Green, or however near/far you’d need to keep it to accommodate the trains on that line.

I’d think about doing it when the next track replacement works are due to come around to minimise the extra track and extra costs.

it may cost a fair bit to resignal and things but money should surely be made back because there’s less track to maintain.
Far from it, the fact it has relatively little traffic means it won't need track renewal for some time and maintenance of plain line track isn't huge, whereas altering signalling is quite the opposite.
 
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zwk500

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it may cost a fair bit to resignal and things but money should surely be made back because there’s less track to maintain.
Given that points are many, many times more expensive to maintain than plain line track, by singling this quite short section you'd stand a fair chance of increasing maintenance costs with the additional interlocking and S&C. It depends how you decide to include the passing/regulating opportunity (but one *will* need to be provided). The most sensible option would be a passing loop at Castle Bar Park, but by the time you've built it to 60mph through speed and 775m standage length how much plain line have you really saved?

The most effective cost-cutting measure would be to close Drayton Green and Greenford South as both are within 1 mile of the only stations they have services to and demand for travel within the branch is clearly very low. However that involves a legal process so probably isn't worth the cost, given the maintenance is fairly low cost at the moment anyway.
Alternatively, electrify it overhead and run it as an isolated feeder for Crossrail (not necessarily with the same stock). Opportunities for electrified freight, removes diesel traction from London, and puts the line on the TfL map. You could do the same with Romford-Upminster at the same time if you wanted.
Opportunities for electric freight are increased by 0, given the curves between Acton Yard and the WCML/WLL are not electrified. Also neither is the Chiltern Main Line, so the calvert freight can't go anywhere. Best option is for Calvert trains to go to bi-mode and Park Royal to have an Electric + Battery loco. The focus on removing diesel traction from London should be on Oxted-Uckfield, and the Chiltern Main Line, as they are far more significant in terms of usage and emissions. Once the Chiltern Line is wired then you'd have a case for in-fill.
 

geordieblue

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Opportunities for electric freight are increased by 0, given the curves between Acton Yard and the WCML/WLL are not electrified. Also neither is the Chiltern Main Line, so the calvert freight can't go anywhere. Best option is for Calvert trains to go to bi-mode and Park Royal to have an Electric + Battery loco. The focus on removing diesel traction from London should be on Oxted-Uckfield, and the Chiltern Main Line, as they are far more significant in terms of usage and emissions. Once the Chiltern Line is wired then you'd have a case for in-fill.
I said increase in opportunities for electric freight, not an increase in electric freight. In the grand scheme of things this is a pretty important freight artery and will need to be electrified at some point in the future, so we might as well do it now. It's also a lot simpler than Chiltern or Oxted, although its benefits aren't quite as large. Why not get on with it?
 

zwk500

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I said increase in opportunities for electric freight, not an increase in electric freight.
Did you read my comment?
Opportunities for electric freight are increased by 0

In the grand scheme of things this is a pretty important freight artery
No, it's not 'pretty important'. It serves two moderate-traffic terminals and provides no real diversionary capacity due to the Chiltern Line being very restricted on freight capacity.
and will need to be electrified at some point in the future, so we might as well do it now. It's also a lot simpler than Chiltern or Oxted, although its benefits aren't quite as large. Why not get on with it?
Battery locos and Bi-Modes will probably be genuinely viable long before the case adds up for electrification. In fact, Bi-modes are viable in the UK now and battery is in operation in other countries. These technologies will further reduce the demand for electrification so why bother spending money we may not even have to in 5 years time?
It's benefits are tiny without Chiltern AND Acton Yard to the WCML/MML being electrified. It's got 5 overbridges and a 500yd tunnel in 2 miles, it's not a straightforward scheme to complete.
 

geordieblue

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Did you read my comment?



No, it's not 'pretty important'. It serves two moderate-traffic terminals and provides no real diversionary capacity due to the Chiltern Line being very restricted on freight capacity.

Battery locos and Bi-Modes will probably be genuinely viable long before the case adds up for electrification. In fact, Bi-modes are viable in the UK now and battery is in operation in other countries. These technologies will further reduce the demand for electrification so why bother spending money we may not even have to in 5 years time?
It's benefits are tiny without Chiltern AND Acton Yard to the WCML/MML being electrified. It's got 5 overbridges and a 500yd tunnel in 2 miles, it's not a straightforward scheme to complete.
It's benefits are tiny without Chiltern AND Acton Yard to the WCML/MML being electrified. It's got 5 overbridges and a 500yd tunnel in 2 miles, it's not a straightforward scheme to complete.
1) I did read your comment, yes. Thanks. It's wrong to say that opportunities won't be increased. The more track that's electrified, the more opportunities there are for electric freight. It would also be wrong to say that there will be more electric freight if this line is electrified (which is what I think you think I'm thinking, if that makes sense). There won't be more electric freight if this line is electrified, but there will be opportunities for freight to exploit (potentially with bi-modes, as you reference later on).
2) It is pretty important. As an example, RTT shows 18 paths on Monday. Not all of them were used but this is a route which sees a pretty high amount of freight traffic (some of them were ECS, in fairness).
3) Bi-modes are not a particularly good use of money unless they're cascaded. If bi-mode or battery freight is such a good idea, why have no operators started using them in large numbers? I appreciate that last mile capability is helpful for electric freight but Greenford is a central section on a route, constituting a fair bit more than a 'last mile'.
4) Fair point about the nature of the route. It's still a lot easier than electrifying Chiltern. The benefits are smaller, as I said above, but the capital cost is much less. Maybe this would be more efficiently done as part of a bigger programme, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be done now.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Also, as you said before, 'at least 2 significant freight flows use the Greenford branch'. Now 'it serves two moderate-traffic freight terminals'. Which is it?

[Edit - the quotes on here are a mess, not sure how to sort that - sorry]
 

The Planner

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Calvert will become more important once it moves, it will increase its traffic from current levels.
 

zwk500

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1) I did read your comment, yes. Thanks. It's wrong to say that opportunities won't be increased. The more track that's electrified, the more opportunities there are for electric freight. It would also be wrong to say that there will be more electric freight if this line is electrified (which is what I think you think I'm thinking, if that makes sense). There won't be more electric freight if this line is electrified, but there will be opportunities for freight to exploit (potentially with bi-modes, as you reference later on).
The electrification needs to go where the freight is going in order to increase the opportunities for electric freight. Extending the wires 2 miles towards a non-wired section doesn't help.

EDIT - I consider an opportunity for electric freight to be a situation where freight might genuinely switch traction. I don't see the wiring the branch increases the chances of that happening. Last-Mile locos will be able to handle the extra 2 miles anyway, and Main-Line non-electric capable would be needed beyond Greenford anyway so why not just change at West Ealing?
2) It is pretty important. As an example, RTT shows 18 paths on Monday. Not all of them were used but this is a route which sees a pretty high amount of freight traffic (some of them were ECS, in fairness).
It's important to the traffic that uses it, but not in comparison to other freight corridors nationally. I'd rather the money was spent on wiring Reading-Basingstoke. Or Nuneaton-Lawley Street.
3) Bi-modes are not a particularly good use of money unless they're cascaded. If bi-mode or battery freight is such a good idea, why have no operators started using them in large numbers? I appreciate that last mile capability is helpful for electric freight but Greenford is a central section on a route, constituting a fair bit more than a 'last mile'.
Because they've got working diesels, new locos are expensive and there's no old bi-modes yet. With the drive for decarbonisation I'd expect that calculation to shift somewhat in the next few years.
4) Fair point about the nature of the route. It's still a lot easier than electrifying Chiltern. The benefits are smaller, as I said above, but the capital cost is much less. Maybe this would be more efficiently done as part of a bigger programme, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be done now.
If something could be done more efficiently later, why do it now at higher cost? If you're needing non-electric capability anyway, save the costs until you can realise the maximum benefit!
Also, as you said before, 'at least 2 significant freight flows use the Greenford branch'. Now 'it serves two moderate-traffic freight terminals'. Which is it?
Significant doesn't mean high-traffic. The freight flows are significant in that they carry a large load and keep vehicles off the roads. Therefore any changes to the branch need to consider the impact on these freight flows.
I'm not well versed on freight flows but I tend to think of medium-traffic as anything with a regular service of 1/wk or more, and high-traffic as more than 1 turnround per day. I'm sure the more knowledgeable members will correct me if I'm way off with those estimates. I underestimated how busy Calvert is, I guess HS2 or EWR is driving that up. But Park Royal Marcon only has 1 inbound and 1 outbound train scheduled each day, and it doesn't run every day. So it's 1 high and 1 medium traffic terminal.
 
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Ianno87

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I'm not well versed on freight flows but I tend to think of medium-traffic as anything with a regular service of 1/wk or more, and high-traffic as more than 1 turnround per day. I'm sure the more knowledgeable members will correct me if I'm way off with those estimates. I underestimated how busy Calvert is, I guess HS2 or EWR is driving that up. But Park Royal Marcon only has 1 inbound and 1 outbound train scheduled each day, and it doesn't run every day. So it's 1 high and 1 medium traffic terminal.

From a freight perspective, a site like Park Royal is strategically near-priceless. The ability to get freight to a site so far into "inner London" by rail is of high value, even for a small number of trains.
 

zwk500

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From a freight perspective, a site like Park Royal is strategically near-priceless. The ability to get freight to a site so far into "inner London" by rail is of high value, even for a small number of trains.
Exactly - Significant, but not high traffic. And all the more reason not to fill the line up with empty passenger units. Similar to Stewarts Lane and St Pancras Churchyard terminals.
 

cle

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It seems that from a passenger connectivity point of view, doubling the NNL Greenford to South Ruislip, and with platforms at Greenford would enable the most commonly agreed upon service (2tph West Ealing to High Wycombe - calling most stations, likely a short train still). Said short train could make up the local service, enabling quicker patterns to Marylebone.

If journey times from Gerrards Cross and Beaconsfield (more demand than the Ruislips) to West Ealing still enabled good journey times (e.g. to City/Canary Wharf) - it might be interesting. And yes, to Heathrow the other way will be very quick and frequent.

Then again, these places are so quick via the M25, it's a tough sell to head into Ealing and back out.

This is assuming Chiltern never makes it to OOC, and this is a consolation prize solution. And if OOC had a proper North Acton/Central Line connection, this would largely be redundant.
 

geordieblue

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Exactly - Significant, but not high traffic. And all the more reason not to fill the line up with empty passenger units. Similar to Stewarts Lane and St Pancras Churchyard terminals.
I'm not suggesting filling the line up with empty passenger units, I'm suggesting electrifying it and running a similar level of service. The rest of your points are pretty fair (although decarbonisation will be better dealt with by electrifying as much as possible instead of relying upon 'last mile' capability which becomes 'last mile plus several miles in the middle').
And of course Nuneaton etc. are more important from a freight perspective. In the non-speculative world things like that would take priority. In the speculative world we can dream that more than one scheme could happen at once! I'm not making the case that Greenfield is of vital strategic significance, more that there would be more than one benefit to a comparatively simple scheme.
 

317 forever

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Alternatively, electrify it overhead and run it as an isolated feeder for Crossrail (not necessarily with the same stock). Opportunities for electrified freight, removes diesel traction from London, and puts the line on the TfL map. You could do the same with Romford-Upminster at the same time if you wanted.

You could even electrify the line from West Ealing to Greenford, then introduce CrossRail trains from Upminster to Greenford via Romford and Ealing. Admittedly this may mean a reduction in CrossRail trains to Gidea Park and west of West Ealing. It would mean a much faster journey from Upminster to Ealing Broadway than on the District Line. ;)
 

JonathanH

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You could even electrify the line from West Ealing to Greenford, then introduce CrossRail trains from Upminster to Greenford via Romford and Ealing. Admittedly this may mean a reduction in CrossRail trains to Gidea Park and west of West Ealing. It would mean a much faster journey from Upminster to Ealing Broadway than on the District Line. ;)
I realise that the suggestion is made in a light hearted manner but there are so many things wrong with it - firstly, just because Upminster and Ealing Broadway are at opposite ends of the District line does not mean the trivial number of people making that journey actually use that route - you would need to build flyovers at West Ealing and Romford to access the branch routes - it doesn't reflect where the primary demand is which is on the main line rather than the branch - platforms would need to be extended and, in particular, neither Greenford or Upminster with single platforms are set up for this service.
 

D365

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The Greenford branch seems like the forum's p-way equivalent of the neverending Class 332 story... Trying to find a solution for a problem that does not exist.
 

geordieblue

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The Greenford branch seems like the forum's p-way equivalent of the neverending Class 332 story... Trying to find a solution for a problem that does not exist.
I mean, there is a minor problem in the sense that the stations on the branch get a poor service by London standards. I agree that it's not going to radically improve transport provision for anyone else, though.
 

Ianno87

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I mean, there is a minor problem in the sense that the stations on the branch get a poor service by London standards. I agree that it's not going to radically improve transport provision for anyone else, though.

It's relatively "easy" to stick a second unit on the service and up it to 4tph.

Combine that with some station improvements, put it on the tube map and away you go.


It'll be interesting to see what happens when Crossrail eventually runs through. Part of the branch's current problem is "changing twice" to get beyond Paddington via Ealing Broadway. Through operation will restore this to a single change from the branch.
 

swt_passenger

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The 2016 Western route study, (presumed written with Crossrail completion factored in), reckoned that the capacity provided by a 2 car DMU at 2 tph between West Ealing and Greenford was adequate until at least 2043. None of the recent studies or strategies, (ie during the 2010s), propose a 4 tph frequency.
 

Non Multi

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Switching from Greenford to Old Oak Common, utilizing the Greenford east curve would probably make the branch service quite appealing again, as GWML commuters would have two opportunities to catch the (infrequent) train.
 

Ianno87

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The 2016 Western route study, (presumed written with Crossrail completion factored in), reckoned that the capacity provided by a 2 car DMU at 2 tph between West Ealing and Greenford was adequate until at least 2043. None of the recent studies or strategies, (ie during the 2010s), propose a 4 tph frequency.

Although, as the Route Study will note - there is a difference between what frequency is needed for capacity (ability to accommodate a straight forecast of demand), and what frequency drives a reduction in Generalised Journey Time and thus propensity to travel in the first place. Nor political considerations of a "London standard" 4tph (if someone foots the bill for it)
 

swt_passenger

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Although, as the Route Study will note - there is a difference between what frequency is needed for capacity (ability to accommodate a straight forecast of demand), and what frequency drives a reduction in Generalised Journey Time and thus propensity to travel in the first place. Nor political considerations of a "London standard" 4tph (if someone foots the bill for it)
I guess so, but even TfL might eventually work out that 4 tph might not be justified everywhere...
 

Ianno87

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I guess so, but even TfL might eventually work out that 4 tph might not be justified everywhere...

Best hope for the line would be if there were ever some significant development near one of the intermediate stations - an increase in frequency would be an 'easy win' to serve it.
 
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