Greenford and Bromley North branches

[YSTrains]

As GBR will be established, what is the chance that the greenford and bromley north lines will join the London Overground network. Will TfL takeover these branch lines?

 

[frankmoh]

The chance is very low right now.

 

[YSTrains]

The chance is very low right now.

Maybe in the future? Unit 230001 would look quite unusual in London Overground livery if it gets transferred to TfL. Im not sure what rolling stock will be used for the Bromley North branch.

 

[SynthD]

The current odd one out of the Overground lines, Liberty, has a nearby depot at Ilford (Weaver uses it too). The previous and current Greenford services have their depot at Reading, all GWR. I don't think there's a suitable/likely way from West Ealing to Willesden, the nearest relevant depot, which has no BEMU experience? When new trains come in, Project Churchward, it'll be even more clear that Reading is the right place.

For Bromley North, I doubt there's room at New Cross. Should Hither Green share, with all of the flaws that come with that.

GBR will give local government more say in services. Neither line has untapped demand that a mayor in full control would obviously unlock.

 

[35B]

As GBR will be established, what is the chance that the greenford and bromley north lines will join the London Overground network. Will TfL takeover these branch lines?

Why would either benefit from a change?

Both use crew and stock provided by the "main line" TOC, and are integrated with those operations with no obvious alternative or efficiency gain - which makes them distinct from the Liberty Line.

 

[zwk500]

The current odd one out of the Overground lines, Liberty, has a nearby depot at Ilford (Weaver uses it too). The previous and current Greenford services have their depot at Reading, all GWR. I don't think there's a suitable/likely way from West Ealing to Willesden, the nearest relevant depot, which has no BEMU experience?

No depot currently has serious BEMU experience in London, although Wembley and Willesden may well end up getting some if the WLO units are BEMUs (which IMO is quite likely). Although WLO probably will have additional stabling added somewhere in the Acton/Willesden area, which could also be used for a Greenford line train.

West Ealing to Willesden TMD is possible without a reversal (although crossing the job at West London Jn is not sensible, so a single reversal at Kensal Green is more likely). West Ealing to Wembley C Sidings doesn't even need a reversal. If the Units were battery depleted, a fully AC Electrified route is possible to both via Kensal Green Turnback and Harlesden Jn.

When new trains come in, Project Churchward, it'll be even more clear that Reading is the right place.

It'd be interesting to see whether people thought the 40 mile ECS move was 'clearly the right place' for a brand-new service when much closer options are available. IMO The Greenford Line shares several points with the Liberty line in it's position in London's transport network and relative isolation from the national rail network that give a decent argument for transferring to LO.

For Bromley North, I doubt there's room at New Cross. Should Hither Green share, with all of the flaws that come with that.

Agree on these ones. The convoluted move necessary to transfer stock between Hither Green and New Cross Depot are bad enough, let alone doing it regularly.

GBR will give local government more say in services. Neither line has untapped demand that a mayor in full control would obviously unlock.

This is also a very fair point, the lines offer moderate interchange potential at best.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Today at 09:41 ==

Why would either benefit from a change?

TfL would potentially give them more thought than the mainline TOC which is focusing on it's much broader passenger requirements from outside London. And particularly in the case of the Greenford line, advertising the link from Central to Elizabeth lines may help passengers use the network better (although Greenford will need to increase in frequency if it's going to be any use as a link between 2 turn-up-and-go services).

Both use crew and stock provided by the "main line" TOC, and are integrated with those operations with no obvious alternative or efficiency gain -

Both lines are segregate services, so it's only unit and driver rotation that is integrated. Which would be the same if the lines transferred to TfL (so yes, no gain, but also no Loss). Conversion could also trigger an upgrade platform for level boarding, platform extensions to 4- or 5-car where needed, and better stations for passengers.

which makes them distinct from the Liberty Line.

If the liberty line was currently operated by GA I suspect we'd see exactly the same reasons why it couldn't possibly be transferred.

The key thing is that transferring to LO would only be of any benefit if the line could be operated from a common pool of drivers and stock without excessive positioning moves. Greenford has easy enough moves, but would struggle to be upgraded even for 4-cars and needs BEMUs. Bromley north is easier to use the normal stock on but requires convoluted movements to/from the depot at the start and end of each day (or even in the middle).
For passengers the benefit is mainly in seeing the line on the Tube map (now that the Overground is shown), which helps for Greenford linking Central and Elizabeth lines but Bromley North only connects to SE, and even then only at the 1 end.

 

[35B]

TfL would potentially give them more thought than the mainline TOC which is focusing on it's much broader passenger requirements from outside London. And particularly in the case of the Greenford line, advertising the link from Central to Elizabeth lines may help passengers use the network better (although Greenford will need to increase in frequency if it's going to be any use as a link between 2 turn-up-and-go services).

Both lines are segregate services, so it's only unit and driver rotation that is integrated. Which would be the same if the lines transferred to TfL (so yes, no gain, but also no Loss). Conversion could also trigger an upgrade platform for level boarding, platform extensions to 4- or 5-car where needed, and better stations for passengers.

If the liberty line was currently operated by GA I suspect we'd see exactly the same reasons why it couldn't possibly be transferred.

The key thing is that transferring to LO would only be of any benefit if the line could be operated from a common pool of drivers and stock without excessive positioning moves. Greenford has easy enough moves, but would struggle to be upgraded even for 4-cars and needs BEMUs. Bromley north is easier to use the normal stock on but requires convoluted movements to/from the depot at the start and end of each day (or even in the middle).
For passengers the benefit is mainly in seeing the line on the Tube map (now that the Overground is shown), which helps for Greenford linking Central and Elizabeth lines but Bromley North only connects to SE, and even then only at the 1 end.

I'm struggling to see the case for Greenford but can just about. For Bromley North, I'm really not seeing it - when I lived there and used the service, it was well integrated with the existing SE local service and didn't even have the touchpoint to TfL that the Upminster or Greenford branches enjoy.

When it comes to crewing, I don't see the case. These are short branches, requiring one crew at a time. Operating out of a large pool leaves plenty of scope for managing overheads effectively. Reducing that to a smaller pool, makes the overhead to cover absences etc. much larger relative to the number of crew needed. And that's an argument I'd also apply to the Liberty Line.

 

[zwk500]

I'm struggling to see the case for Greenford but can just about. For Bromley North, I'm really not seeing it - when I lived there and used the service, it was well integrated with the existing SE local service and didn't even have the touchpoint to TfL that the Upminster or Greenford branches enjoy.

Fully agree, and IMO the operational case for Greenford is only there after or as part of WLO. Chiefly because of the likely use of BEMUs.

When it comes to crewing, I don't see the case. These are short branches, requiring one crew at a time. Operating out of a large pool leaves plenty of scope for managing overheads effectively. Reducing that to a smaller pool, makes the overhead to cover absences etc. much larger relative to the number of crew needed. And that's an argument I'd also apply to the Liberty Line.

Presumably GWR don't actually train all their crew on it, so how large is the pool of GWR trained crew compared to what LO would have available?

 

[35B]

Presumably GWR don't actually train all their crew on it, so how large is the pool of GWR trained crew compared to what LO would have available?

My assumption is that the training is of the link at one depot. Which kind of makes the point - it's not a dedicated link, so pulling those duties out would increase the staffing requirement.

 

[zwk500]

My assumption is that the training is of the link at one depot. Which kind of makes the point - it's not a dedicated link, so pulling those duties out would increase the staffing requirement.

My point is that LO would be just as likely as GWR to cover the branch out of an existing depot rather than set up a dedicated link. Neither Willesden nor Wembley are particularly far away and the set would likely come empty from there anyway first thing so the main awkwardness is covering breaks, which GWR presumably already have to something less than optimal for.

 

[35B]

My point is that LO would be just as likely as GWR to cover the branch out of an existing depot rather than set up a dedicated link. Neither Willesden nor Wembley are particularly far away and the set would likely come empty from there anyway first thing so the main awkwardness is covering breaks, which GWR presumably already have to something less than optimal for.

The TUPE regulations might want a word here...

 

[Starmill]

The TUPE regulations might want a word here...

They wouldn't be relevant if GWR gave the work up and some other company took it on from fresh.

 

[35B]

They wouldn't be relevant if GWR gave the work up and some other company took it on from fresh.

That's precisely when they would be relevant - it's the job role that transfers, and off the back of that, the staff.

 

[Starmill]

That's precisely when they would be relevant - it's the job role that transfers, and off the back of that, the staff.

They wouldn't. They'd be different jobs with different rates of pay, different terms and different hours, in a different location.

Existing GWR staff would stay where they are and lose the route. Existing LO staff would also stay where they are and gain a new route.

 

[swt_passenger]

As GBR will be established, what is the chance that the greenford and bromley north lines will join the London Overground network. Will TfL takeover these branch lines?

No. In the case of Greenford, why would TfL even want a short, disconnected, non-electrified branch? It’s not going to revert to a through service anytime soon. I don’t believe GBR will change the status quo on either branch.

 

[35B]

They wouldn't. They'd be different jobs with different rates of pay, different terms and different hours, in a different location.

Existing GWR staff would stay where they are and lose the route. Existing LO staff would also stay where they are and gain a new route.

That is not how TUPE works