Green signals showing both ends of platform

[ffcphone]

Yesterday I reached platform 5 at Preston station around 5:05pm. A fTPE 185 bound for Windermere was stationery at platform 4, its position compatible with that of a 2 x 185 unit which had decoupled and the most northerly unit having now departed. I know from experience the front portion departs for Edinburgh first.

I glanced toward the northbound end of platform 4 and noted a green signal and route indicator "F". The Windermere service was around 60 seconds off departure.

I glanced toward the southbound end of the station and noted a red signal for platform 5 but a green signal for platform 4 and route indicator "UF". This means both ends of platform 4 were showing green signals whilst a train was stationery at the platform.

The two greens remained for a further 20-30 seconds after I first spotted them but I was sufficiently worried about the possibility of an incoming southbound train being routed into the path of the Windermere 185 that I made my way to the stairs at the end of platform 5 in case a quick getaway was needed.

After 20-30 secs the southbound green turned to red and the Windermere train departed as normal shortly thereafter.

Anyone care to comment on this observation?

 

[ChrisTheRef]

"UF" would be Up Fast

I couldn't say a lot more as I'm not too familiar with Preston's layout

 

[ffcphone]

I appreciate the meanings of F and UF. My point was more that for at least 20-30 seconds green signals were showing for both directions on the same piece of track. Presumably this also meant the next signals each way were green, the ones after that at least amber if not green, etc. A length of track at least six signals long was cleared for passage in either direction with a train stationery in the middle.

 

[yorkie]

The two greens remained for a further 20-30 seconds after I first spotted them but I was sufficiently worried about the possibility of an incoming southbound train being routed into the path of the Windermere 185 that I made my way to the stairs at the end of platform 5 in case a quick getaway was needed.

Why? If the Windermere train had a green, then there's no chance of a train coming from the north having a green. You cannot see the signals that a train approaching from the north will see approaching the station!

Why shouldn't both ends of the same platform be showing a green? What's wrong with that? The route going south may have been set for the train after the Windermere train, coming from the North. There's no harm in setting that route early.

Unless I am missing something I can't see any problem at all with what is described.

 

[Lampshade]

I'm not too sure of the southbound workings at that time, it's usually Liverpool Lime Street, Manchester Airport and Colne from 2 at xx:04, xx:10 and xx:22, and Hazel Grove from 4 at xx:23. It might have been set early for the Birmingham departure or a late running Pendolino, though they tend to use 6 now.

 

[SWT Driver]

It sometimes happens down here in Guildford, if they split an 8 or 12 car up to form two services, so you can have M or X on the country end & a A or M or C on the London end depending on which platform is being used.

 

[ffcphone]

Splitting the Edinburgh and Windermere service happens everyday around 5pm on platform 4. I watch it happen most days whilst I await the 5:10 fTPE to Man Airport. I've just never witnessed the signals at Preston showing green for both ends of the same track and the fact the southbound green was cancelled and turned to red fairly promptly without any train movement in the interim is what made
me think there was an error. During other train splitting manoeuvres the southbound platform 4 always shows red even though it's the southern most 185 which reverses away from the northernmost unit to separate.

Agreed I can't see signals on the southern approach to Preston or more than a couple on the southbound exit.
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I'm not too sure of the southbound workings at that time, it's usually Liverpool Lime Street, Manchester Airport and Colne from 2 at xx:04, xx:10 and xx:22, and Hazel Grove from 4 at xx:23. It might have been set early for the Birmingham departure or a late running Pendolino, though they tend to use 6 now.

there is no 5:23 for whatever reason.

:10 and :47 fTPE tend to go from 5 and 4 respectively.

 

[Old Timer]

The scenario you describe is not unique as it applies at many stations throughout the Railway network, neither is it dangerous as the signal interlocking will not permit irregular signalling sequences.

I also find your your reactions on the day to be rather dramatic in the least.

 

[royaloak]

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing,
As OT has stated, if the signal was off (green) for an outbound train (in either or both directions) then the inbound signal(s) will be held at red by the interlocking, so no train other than the one signalled can enter that section of track.
Get a book on basic signalling, it will explain it all clearly.

 

[ffcphone]

This may well be common but in 2-3 years of watching the same procedure occur in front of me on 90% of occasions - and having never witnessed the signalling scenario as I saw the other evening - it reminded me of a single lane contraflow controlled by temporary traffic lights with both ends showing green.

If what others say is true my concern was misplaced although it doesn't answer why one green was promptly set back to danger without any train movement.

But let's close the matter.

 

[boing_uk]

How can it be the same as a set of temporary signals showing green? In that scenario (which is impossible by the way) you would have two sets of traffic heading towards each other.

In the scenario at Preston, it is more akin to the temps being on red at both ends and a vehicle in the middle being able to exit in either direction.

 

[Tomnick]

Leaving aside the impossibility of conflicting routes being set at the same time, and accepting that it's (often!) possible to clear signals for 'opposing' departures from the same platform, I'd have thought it most likely that the signal at the 'up' end of the platform was cleared in error for one of any number of reasons - for example the Signalman expecting the train to return south, if any similar movements do end up with a portion going that way.

 

[Aictos]

At Hertford North, there is a signal at the London end of Platform 2 for trains to go back to London and also another signal at the country end about 400m down the line.

Anyway there's been times when both have shown green, mainly because although the first train is going back to London, the second train is going to Stevenage.

 

[Tomnick]

Isn't the signal at the country end (of Hertford North station) an automatic signal? I'm sure there's a few other stations where the same situation would occur (controlled signal for departing in one direction, automatic in the other), which would create the same situation that the OP saw at Preston.

 

[thefab444]

True, but at a large station like Preston, the platform "home" signals are going to all be controlled.

 

[driver9000]

Its not uncommon at Preston and used to happen every day (early morning) until last Decembers timetable change when the 05:22 Colne and 05:22 Carlisle departed from the same platform after coming from Blackpool North as one train.

All Preston station 'starting' signals are controlled, as indeed they all are within the Station area bounded by Fylde Junction and Skew Bridge Junction.