Green Line 797

[Deerfold]

The 724 is more of an express bus service & quite useful as it provides fast East-West links across Hertfordshire which the rail service doesn't do.

Was this a response to anything in particular?

 

[spuddie]

Do I sound picky wanting published authors to be able to use punctuation correctly and not sprinkle apostrophes everywhere?

Not at all, I would expect it too but sadly now were at a stage where anyone can publish anything very easily without the rigorous checks of a publisher.
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Probably an extension to one of their existing services.

They tried something similar when Arriva cancelled the 712 St Albans - London service - don't think it lasted long though.

Problem is the coach compares unfavorably with the train in both journey time and cost. The only time the coach starts to make some sense is when you are trying to get to Brent Cross or somewhere like that when the train means going in and out by tube.

The thing is at Hatfield the train station is some distance away from the University, if they can make the fares more reasonable they have a decent chance of tempting more students to use the service directly to the university instead.

Any ideas on what Uno will be using? Will it be a mixture of the Scania Omnicitys and Mercedes Citaro's like before or will see some pink coaches?

 

[A0]

The thing is at Hatfield the train station is some distance away from the University, if they can make the fares more reasonable they have a decent chance of tempting more students to use the service directly to the university instead.

The fares are unlikely to be different - I can't believe UNO's overheads and margins are significantly different to Arriva's.

If Arriva reckon it can't be run viably, then it must be marginal for UNO - unless they're tacking it onto other routes.

Arguably UNO are already providing services to the UoH from the two destinations that the 797 serves - Stevenage with the 635 and North London (Stanmore) with the 614 ?

 

[jon0844]

Uno has a real shortage of buses and drivers at the moment. A real problem that has seen my own bus service run with just one bus a lot of the time, so instead of a 20 minute service it's now 40 minutes. Uno rarely says anything, so the first time you realise in the morning is when your bus doesn't show and you have to wait for the next.

And they've hired in some buses that they've not put any branding on, and the displays don't work so they just use the number on a bit of paper stuck to the front.

It's a joke. Even a load of drivers I speak to think it's a joke, and seem quite happy to slag off management and not care who might be listening.

I still can't figure out how they will 'take over' this service*. No notification has been shown on the Intalink website as yet, so it can't be happening in time for a seamless changeover either.

If Uno is going to be using five buses, I wonder if these are new buses they'll lease or if they are thinking of trying to do something 'clever' by combining and extending some existing services. I am not sure how viable it would be, but let's imagine a combination of the 635 and 614, extended into central London.

That would be a very long route, and probably hard to keep to time, but it might just make some money from shorter hops - although I expect it wouldn't be able to take Oyster and put off local people in London.

The problem then is that the buses can get rather full at key times of the day, with groups of students, so if Uno is thinking of trying to be clever and make money that Arriva couldn't, it might actually make it unusable by the long distance commuters anyway.

* Many local people seem to think that Uno will literally take it over, getting the coaches and drivers. While they could possibly buy/lease the buses, I doubt Arriva will be handing over the drivers! Perhaps people think buses outside of London are run on a franchise basis?

 

[Deerfold]

Uno has a real shortage of buses and drivers at the moment. A real problem that has seen my own bus service run with just one bus a lot of the time, so instead of a 20 minute service it's now 40 minutes. Uno rarely says anything, so the first time you realise in the morning is when your bus doesn't show and you have to wait for the next.

And they've hired in some buses that they've not put any branding on, and the displays don't work so they just use the number on a bit of paper stuck to the front.

It's a joke. Even a load of drivers I speak to think it's a joke, and seem quite happy to slag off management and not care who might be listening.

I still can't figure out how they will 'take over' this service*. No notification has been shown on the Intalink website as yet, so it can't be happening in time for a seamless changeover either.

Have you complained to the Traffic Commissioner? They're not much good for individual problems, but if Uno are regularly not operating to the timetable (and operating buses that are not obvious) they can impose punishments on operators - including not letting them take on new routes until they've sorted out exisiting problems.

 

[jon0844]

797 by Uno now official. http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/under..._saved_but_will_not_run_at_weekends_1_3953979

Seems it's a trial for a year.

Rumour has it that it will be an extension of the 635 from Baldock. When it gets to Hatfield it will change number to the 797. Same driver, same bus, but different route.

Something to do with avoiding the need for a tachograph?

 

[A0]

797 by Uno now official. http://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/under..._saved_but_will_not_run_at_weekends_1_3953979

Seems it's a trial for a year.

Rumour has it that it will be an extension of the 635 from Baldock. When it gets to Hatfield it will change number to the 797. Same driver, same bus, but different route.

Something to do with avoiding the need for a tachograph?

Interestingly they already do that with some of the 635s running into Baldock as 635 and continuing to Stansted as a 700.....

Common trick for operators who were impacted by the Euro regs which were introduced around long services.

 

[jon0844]

Hence why they're stopping the 700 bit in favour of the 797 bit.

Cheeky gits. Also suggests the buses will be quite old and nowhere near as comfortable as a coach.

How can Uno expect people who pay to use this? It must be the hope that students will be using it, and maybe the route will change to suit them better.

 

[Deerfold]

Hence why they're stopping the 700 bit in favour of the 797 bit.

Cheeky gits. Also suggests the buses will be quite old and nowhere near as comfortable as a coach.

How can Uno expect people who pay to use this? It must be the hope that students will be using it, and maybe the route will change to suit them better.

Are they stopping the 700? I'd be surprised as they run that under contract to the council.

It wouldn't surprise me if they than the Clothall Common trips which do not go to Stansted Airport on as 797s.

Images online suggest it's not unusual for the 635 to get 2012 vintage buses.

http://countrybus.org/LS2012/uno52b.jpg

However these are a bit small so these may not be what's used on the 797.

Unfortunately any regular commuters have a month without the 797 so may get used to whatever alternative they pick - and it doesn't look as if the new 797 will run from any of the Stevenage housing estates which must be the main attraction for many current users.

 

[jon0844]

I thought the 700 was going but might be wrong. I thought I saw it on an Intalink bulletin but can't see it now, so I probably am wrong.

We occasionally get the above bus on our route, but there's no consistency and Uno swap and change all over the place. If it was one of those, or similar, that would be very good.

Those are the hybrid buses I think, so possibly cheaper to run.

 

[plebb11]

the 700 has been awarded to centrebus as 700 stevenage-letchworth and 700a letchworth-stansted.

i hope uno well however they plan to run it

 

[causton]

I believe the 700 was lost due to county council funding cuts. I thought Centrebus would have a different route they run (unsure of the number) amended to pick up the 700 route, but perhaps the 700/700a will replace what Centrebus used to run.

Best buses are the Scanias (excluding the silver hire-in with no branding whatsoever - can't see TfL liking that heading to London!) - problem with those Streetlites is they seem to have a restrictive limiter on as they go quite slow on the A1(M) compared to some of the other buses Uno have! The Citaros would do too...

Wondering if Uno would change the routing to serve the Uni campus instead of Bishops Rise. (As someone who lives close to where the 797 currently passes; I would not be happy if it stopped serving there; then again I don't use the 797 as I get the train for free and all other buses in Herts for £30 a week; hmm perhaps this is why the 797 is failing as everyone has alternatives )

 

[Robertj21a]

I believe the 700 was lost due to county council funding cuts. I thought Centrebus would have a different route they run (unsure of the number) amended to pick up the 700 route, but perhaps the 700/700a will replace what Centrebus used to run.

Best buses are the Scanias (excluding the silver hire-in with no branding whatsoever - can't see TfL liking that heading to London!) - problem with those Streetlites is they seem to have a restrictive limiter on as they go quite slow on the A1(M) compared to some of the other buses Uno have! The Citaros would do too...

Wondering if Uno would change the routing to serve the Uni campus instead of Bishops Rise. (As someone who lives close to where the 797 currently passes; I would not be happy if it stopped serving there; then again I don't use the 797 as I get the train for free and all other buses in Herts for £30 a week; hmm perhaps this is why the 797 is failing as everyone has alternatives )

The 700/700A have now been registered by Centrebus, only split in two due to distance.

 

[Busaholic]

The 700/700A have now been registered by Centrebus, only split in two due to distance.

Don't wish to be cynical, but splitting the route may also offer the operator the opportunity of claiming more back from the CC for concessionary pass use - this has been admitted to by at least one of the big groups.

 

[jon0844]

Please do be cynical. There has to be something 'dodgy' going on.

 

[Deerfold]

Please do be cynical. There has to be something 'dodgy' going on.

Why does there have to be something dodgy going on?

It's now quite normal for long routes to be registered in sections to avoid the need to use tachographs and the associated regulations on driver hours - uno ran the old 700 route as part 635 and part 700.

The old Transpeak (Derby - Manchester) service is now registered in four sections.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Please do be cynical. There has to be something 'dodgy' going on.

I don't agree. The routes are registered in sections purely because of the tachograph issue, it is an unintended side-effect of the EU regulations that came into force a few years ago.

Through ticketing is available on the routes which have been split, so I don't see how ENCTS reimbursements will really be affected.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Why does there have to be something dodgy going on?

It's now quite normal for long routes to be registered in sections to avoid the need to use tachographs and the associated regulations on driver hours - uno ran the old 700 route as part 635 and part 700.

The old Transpeak (Derby - Manchester) service is now registered in four sections.

Indeed, and that's before you get onto the issues of having depots that are predominantly on domestic hours legislation with relatively small amounts of EU work. The hassle and management time in managing drivers in such an environment is quite something!

 

[Mr Manager]

One hell of a lot of changes proposed looking at this document. But it does not mention a service to Stansted Airport on the revised 700 service ??

https://consult.hertsdirect.org/bus-services/assets/documents/table-a-contract-services-wh-2

Sorry admin too many pages to list to do a screen shot.

 

[Deerfold]

One hell of a lot of changes proposed looking at this document. But it does not mention a service to Stansted Airport on the revised 700 service ??

https://consult.hertsdirect.org/bus-services/assets/documents/table-a-contract-services-wh-2

Sorry admin too many pages to list to do a screen shot.

It talks about replacing the 700 with 4 journeys a day Bishops Stortford - Hitchin but seems to be dependent on the outcome of last month's tendering.

However as Centrebus have registered to run their 700 and 700a from the end of March, presumably they have either won a tender or decided it's worth running commercially.

I wonder if uno's 635 frequency will drop following its start?

That document looks to spell the end of any social life for anyone not travelling by train and unable to afford taxis.

 

[Busaholic]

I don't agree. The routes are registered in sections purely because of the tachograph issue, it is an unintended side-effect of the EU regulations that came into force a few years ago.

Through ticketing is available on the routes which have been split, so I don't see how ENCTS reimbursements will really be affected.

Through ticketing is not always available on routes that have been split, for instance where two different operators operate over the two sections. In other instances, a bus may operate one route then 'turn into' another route halfway through: passengers can often stay on the bus, but must rebook. This is particularly prevalent near some county boundaries, and has been commented on many times in the letters pages of 'Buses' magazine over the years. I am not suggesting that it is a feature of operations in Hertfordshire/Essex, mind, just pointing out that it is in places.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's now quite normal for long routes to be registered in sections to avoid the need to use tachographs and the associated regulations on driver hours - uno ran the old 700 route as part 635 and part 700.

The old Transpeak (Derby - Manchester) service is now registered in four sections.

So's the X5, with some wonderfully misleading passenger information displays.

It's a farce. Either long domestic rules journeys should be allowed or not. If they are, fine. If they aren't, this is taking the mick, and the Government should stamp on it, or if they don't the EU should.

IMO it is *very* dodgy and needs to be stopped. Now. Or the law changed so it isn't required.

Neil
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I don't agree. The routes are registered in sections purely because of the tachograph issue, it is an unintended side-effect of the EU regulations that came into force a few years ago.

It's a set of operators taking the mickey out of the law in the manner that some large companies do over tax. It is so obviously sticking up two fingers that I'm amazed it has persisted.

Neil

 

[Tetchytyke]

This is particularly prevalent near some county boundaries, and has been commented on many times in the letters pages of 'Buses' magazine over the years. I am not suggesting that it is a feature of operations in Hertfordshire/Essex, mind, just pointing out that it is in places.

I don't use many buses round here so I'm not sure what happens. I was more thinking of when I lived in Newcastle and travelled a lot in Northumberland. On the 685 passengers had to rebook on ENCTS when the operator changed in Hexham (even though you could buy through tickets), which has always happened on Sundays and evenings. When it was a technical split (Stagecoach split at Hexham and Brampton, Arriva at Haydon Bridge, keeping the same bus throughout) ENCTS passengers didn't need to touch in again.

 

[Robertj21a]

So's the X5, with some wonderfully misleading passenger information displays.

It's a farce. Either long domestic rules journeys should be allowed or not. If they are, fine. If they aren't, this is taking the mick, and the Government should stamp on it, or if they don't the EU should.

IMO it is *very* dodgy and needs to be stopped. Now. Or the law changed so it isn't required.

Neil
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It's a set of operators taking the mickey out of the law in the manner that some large companies do over tax. It is so obviously sticking up two fingers that I'm amazed it has persisted.

Neil

Nothing dodgy at all. It's now a recognised practice and Stagecoach took the lead in obtaining approval.

 

[Busaholic]

I don't use many buses round here so I'm not sure what happens. I was more thinking of when I lived in Newcastle and travelled a lot in Northumberland. On the 685 passengers had to rebook on ENCTS when the operator changed in Hexham (even though you could buy through tickets), which has always happened on Sundays and evenings. When it was a technical split (Stagecoach split at Hexham and Brampton, Arriva at Haydon Bridge, keeping the same bus throughout) ENCTS passengers didn't need to touch in again.

I daresay through ticketing is the norm, but as local authorities cut the percentage of the full fare they allow the operator some operators on services with high use of free passes may consider ways (if unsympathetic, I might say ruses) of maximising their income from these sources. Bit like the difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion I submit, though IMO there's a great deal of semantics there.

Wales may now see less through operation for these reasons.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Nothing dodgy at all. It's now a recognised practice and Stagecoach took the lead in obtaining approval.

Quite right, Robert.

Neil, this has been covered time and time again. However, for the avoidance of doubt.....

There is nothing dodgy. The rules were brought in by the EU to cover long distance coach express services and the like. However, with the law of unintended consequences, they swept up the long distance bus services. Of course, these are more prevalent in the UK than Europe for various reasons.

The rules were NEVER supposed to hoover up bus services of 35 miles. Therefore, DfT have provided guidance on how bus services can now be managed without having to move to restrictive drivers hours rules. The alternative, and we've already seen it, is the wholesale cutting or truncating of bus services into smaller chunks.

Which is preferable? Losing links because they're either sliced and diced, or are uneconomic and so lost, or the alternative in jumping through a few hoops in terms of destination screens?

 

[Robertj21a]

I daresay through ticketing is the norm, but as local authorities cut the percentage of the full fare they allow the operator some operators on services with high use of free passes may consider ways (if unsympathetic, I might say ruses) of maximising their income from these sources. Bit like the difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion I submit, though IMO there's a great deal of semantics there.

Wales may now see less through operation for these reasons.

I doubt it with the larger operators (who are also the more likely to run longer services). Many of them seem to have now agreed a lump sum payment for ENCTS reimbursement - hence why there's often no need to now state your destination.

 

[causton]

Has the timetable been posted on this thread yet?

If not...

http://heretotherepublishing.com/h2toldsite/blog/?p=2438

 

[jon0844]

Seems to skip the business park now. Not surprised, but makes it useless for me. Still, I never used the 797 before so I can't complain.

 

[causton]

Seems to skip the business park now. Not surprised, but makes it useless for me. Still, I never used the 797 before so I can't complain.

Don't think so! The times seem to match up with what runs on the 635 now so I believe they have just included the two principal stops. For example, I could not see the service not serving the Galleria, or anywhere apart from Bishops Rise and the Forum in Hatfield, as that would be ludicrous (although as someone who lives in South Hatfield way that would be nice )