Greatest challenge for a signaller?

[BrummieBobby]

Following on from the similar thread for drivers, what would signallers say is the hardest part of the job?

For me, it is attention management on a quiet shift. I was doing a 12 hour shift a few months back, 06:00 to 18:00, and up until 16:30 it was the quietest shift I have had in ages. Then at 16:30 there was an issue with a track circuit showing occupied after the passage of a train, with the usual process to follow (Ensuring last train is complete, talking subsequent trains past the signal etc.) The switch from normal, routine working to a degraded situation is always a jolt to the system.

What do other signallers feel is the hardest part of the job?

 

[cin88]

Normally, same issue as you, attention management when its quiet, which it usually is for me.

Right now though, its maintaining the correct standard of communication after a month of working by telephone due to a block bell failure that has S&T stumped.

The switch from normal, routine working to a degraded situation is always a jolt to the system.

I've long said in my various railway roles that the first hour of any disruptive event is the hardest part of them.

 

[High Dyke]

Following on from the similar thread for drivers, what would signallers say is the hardest part of the job?

For me, it is attention management on a quiet shift. I was doing a 12 hour shift a few months back, 06:00 to 18:00, and up until 16:30 it was the quietest shift I have had in ages. Then at 16:30 there was an issue with a track circuit showing occupied after the passage of a train, with the usual process to follow (Ensuring last train is complete, talking subsequent trains past the signal etc.) The switch from normal, routine working to a degraded situation is always a jolt to the system.

What do other signallers feel is the hardest part of the job?

There are those that have struggled with attention management, on quieter routes - even worse if the timetable has been reduced by the TOC.

Me? I'm always faffing about with something to pass the time.

For some it's knowing where to find operational information and then how to apply / challenge if they are unsure of a particular situation.

 

[LCC106]

Watering the tomato plants while Tiddles is rolling over for cuddles?! Seriously, how do you manage during major disruption with drivers, control etc. all wanting a piece of you at once?

 

[BrummieBobby]

Watering the tomato plants while Tiddles is rolling over for cuddles?! Seriously, how do you manage during major disruption with drivers, control etc. all wanting a piece of you at once?

That is completely untrue and frankly offensive; our cat is called Mia!

That's when the fun starts- prioritising who gets dealt with in what order; usually I give the drivers priority (As they are the ones on the ground reporting issues / have passengers to deal with etc.) but it all depends on the situation.

 

[Gloster]

Forty years ago when you only had fixed line telephones, it was getting people to ring (or ring back) when they should if there was disruption. Either everything was waiting on a driver who remained in his warm cab instead of ringing the box, even if you banged a signal up and down: eventually he would ring in and say, “Got a problem, bobby?” (You had to resist saying, “Yes, you”.) Or they would be ringing every minute, so blocking all lines on the concentrator, to ask, “Anything happening?”

 

[Galvanize]

A challenge I can think of for a no longer extent box going back almost 10 years.

London Bridge signalling centre, Southern side Platforms 8-16 (as was) on a “Litter clearing week”, once a fortnight two Platforms were closed and Blocked between 11am and 1pm so that some very intensive cleaning could go on. This would result in a lot of front train working and replatforming of trains.

In one of the old timetables there were trains booked to split and attach, some of them were Class 455/456 units, and great care was needed to ensure they arrived on the platforms with the High Level Jumpers attached on the right side as there wasn’t always a “Catwalk” on the other side to safely connect/disconnect the HL jumpers. What then threw a spanner in the works sometimes, a last minute stock change occurred (if there was an earlier cancellation or a unit needing to swap diagrams)…signallers did try their best with minimal notice!

There were also units booked to berth in the platforms for long periods of time as well, so they had to work around those as well, when down on two platforms!

 

[dctraindriver]

I’d imagine it’s actually knowing when a drivers slowly approached a red signal, stopped the train, put the DRA on and then and only then at that split second given a proceed aspect. Must all be psychic’s……

 

[endofthetunnel]

Personally (although dctraindriver’s comment is meant I’m sure in jest) I find it hard to deal with the general driver opinion - and often that of this forum - is that signallers are out there intentionally slowing/stopping trains, clearing signals as late as possible, and are annoyed by having to do our jobs and run trains.

I go to work diligently day and night and do my best to run trains to time, in the right order, and with the minimal delay - as well as getting line blocks on and off as best I can, and safely, plus allowing road traffic as much time over level crossings as possible, keeping stations informed about changes, and so on.

Also, its a definite gripe of mine that drivers don’t have a better understanding of our job. We spend time learning their role as part of our training, and if possible do cab rides to really learn our patch from their perspective, but I have literally never had a driver in any of my boxes with me.
As signallers (in anything non-semaphore) we don’t pick which aspect your signal is, just whether it’s clear or danger. Nor do we watch each train’s track circuits and decide if you’re going slowly enough - the interlocking does that, sorry.

 

[Nflkrail]

Personally (although dctraindriver’s comment is meant I’m sure in jest) I find it hard to deal with the general driver opinion - and often that of this forum - is that signallers are out there intentionally slowing/stopping trains, clearing signals as late as possible, and are annoyed by having to do our jobs and run trains.

I go to work diligently day and night and do my best to run trains to time, in the right order, and with the minimal delay - as well as getting line blocks on and off as best I can, and safely, plus allowing road traffic as much time over level crossings as possible, keeping stations informed about changes, and so on.

Also, its a definite gripe of mine that drivers don’t have a better understanding of our job. We spend time learning their role as part of our training, and if possible do cab rides to really learn our patch from their perspective, but I have literally never had a driver in any of my boxes with me.
As signallers (in anything non-semaphore) we don’t pick which aspect your signal is, just whether it’s clear or danger. Nor do we watch each train’s track circuits and decide if you’re going slowly enough - the interlocking does that, sorry.

It's a shame some drivers are very anti-signaller. I don't know where it comes from.

As a driver, I'm always pleasant to the signaller, because why wouldn't you be? We're all there to do one job.

We're not really offered the chance to sit with the signaller, even on our own time. It's a shame as it would definitely help. Even to put a face to the voice.

I sometimes ask our signallers how they are doing and not all of them know how to respond to that!!

 

[dctraindriver]

Personally (although dctraindriver’s comment is meant I’m sure in jest) I find it hard to deal with the general driver opinion - and often that of this forum - is that signallers are out there intentionally slowing/stopping trains, clearing signals as late as possible, and are annoyed by having to do our jobs and run trains.

I go to work diligently day and night and do my best to run trains to time, in the right order, and with the minimal delay - as well as getting line blocks on and off as best I can, and safely, plus allowing road traffic as much time over level crossings as possible, keeping stations informed about changes, and so on.

Also, its a definite gripe of mine that drivers don’t have a better understanding of our job. We spend time learning their role as part of our training, and if possible do cab rides to really learn our patch from their perspective, but I have literally never had a driver in any of my boxes with me.
As signallers (in anything non-semaphore) we don’t pick which aspect your signal is, just whether it’s clear or danger. Nor do we watch each train’s track circuits and decide if you’re going slowly enough - the interlocking does that, sorry.

Yep in jest. Thankfully I’ve been fortunate enough to visit a couple of boxes over the years so have an idea of how busy it can be. And I totally understand I’m not the only one out there. It would be good to see signallers out with us on occasions but understand the difficulties in this due to staffing levels etc.

 

[choochoochoo]

Personally (although dctraindriver’s comment is meant I’m sure in jest) I find it hard to deal with the general driver opinion - and often that of this forum - is that signallers are out there intentionally slowing/stopping trains, clearing signals as late as possible, and are annoyed by having to do our jobs and run trains.

I go to work diligently day and night and do my best to run trains to time, in the right order, and with the minimal delay - as well as getting line blocks on and off as best I can, and safely, plus allowing road traffic as much time over level crossings as possible, keeping stations informed about changes, and so on.

Also, its a definite gripe of mine that drivers don’t have a better understanding of our job. We spend time learning their role as part of our training, and if possible do cab rides to really learn our patch from their perspective, but I have literally never had a driver in any of my boxes with me.
As signallers (in anything non-semaphore) we don’t pick which aspect your signal is, just whether it’s clear or danger. Nor do we watch each train’s track circuits and decide if you’re going slowly enough - the interlocking does that, sorry.

I'd love to do more signal box visits. We got the chance during our initial training, but it's not that useful then, as you've not driven the route, or experienced how signalling affects your day-to-day driving.

Sadly money talks, an it's not cost effective to have productive drivers out learning stuff that TOCs can't see a direct benefit from.

Likewise, I'd love to go visit operations/control and see what they've got to do, but again you think they'd let me have a day off from driving to do that ?

I'd love for people in signal boxes/control/planning to ride in my cab for a whole day.

 

[dan4291]

During my driver training there was a planned visit to York ROC to see how it all worked but due to Covid it got knocked on the head. Such a shame as I really do want to see the railway from the signallers point of view and what they really have to do and contend with.

 

[LCC106]

Yep. We visited a semaphore box and ROC during training but not had the opportunity since. Would LOVE a signaller to travel in my cab so we can ask each other questions and understand their priorities or decision making. It’s never happened in the 10+ years I’ve been driving.

 

[Fred Dinenage]

Personally (although dctraindriver’s comment is meant I’m sure in jest) I find it hard to deal with the general driver opinion - and often that of this forum - is that signallers are out there intentionally slowing/stopping trains, clearing signals as late as possible, and are annoyed by having to do our jobs and run trains.

I go to work diligently day and night and do my best to run trains to time, in the right order, and with the minimal delay - as well as getting line blocks on and off as best I can, and safely, plus allowing road traffic as much time over level crossings as possible, keeping stations informed about changes, and so on.

Also, its a definite gripe of mine that drivers don’t have a better understanding of our job. We spend time learning their role as part of our training, and if possible do cab rides to really learn our patch from their perspective, but I have literally never had a driver in any of my boxes with me.
As signallers (in anything non-semaphore) we don’t pick which aspect your signal is, just whether it’s clear or danger. Nor do we watch each train’s track circuits and decide if you’re going slowly enough - the interlocking does that, sorry.

What kind of sanction is given to signallers for offering wrong routes to drivers? I’ve heard it’s very little, whereas a driver who takes an offered wrong route is in bother. Is it always down to ARS?

I’m still PQA, took an offered wrong route and was off the job immediately, pending investigation. I’ve heard apocryphally that signallers don’t see it as a big deal, as they receive no comeback for their error…it’s the driver’s fault for accepting the wrong route.

I’m not flinging mud, just trying to gain an understanding. We got to visit the ROC briefly, but our lead instructor cancelled a signal-box visit as he couldn’t be bothered

 

[Red Devil]

Personally (although dctraindriver’s comment is meant I’m sure in jest) I find it hard to deal with the general driver opinion - and often that of this forum - is that signallers are out there intentionally slowing/stopping trains, clearing signals as late as possible, and are annoyed by having to do our jobs and run trains.

I go to work diligently day and night and do my best to run trains to time, in the right order, and with the minimal delay - as well as getting line blocks on and off as best I can, and safely, plus allowing road traffic as much time over level crossings as possible, keeping stations informed about changes, and so on.

Also, its a definite gripe of mine that drivers don’t have a better understanding of our job. We spend time learning their role as part of our training, and if possible do cab rides to really learn our patch from their perspective, but I have literally never had a driver in any of my boxes with me.
As signallers (in anything non-semaphore) we don’t pick which aspect your signal is, just whether it’s clear or danger. Nor do we watch each train’s track circuits and decide if you’re going slowly enough - the interlocking does that, sorry.

As a driver and instructor I tell my trainees that the age old attitude of us v them of driver's and signallers should be consigned to the bin. We're all in this gig together and 99.9% of the time I've found signallers to be spot on. I tell my trainees signallers will help out if asked and are more than willing to do so in my experience because any faux pas involve paperwork and I'm sure like me signallers hate paperwork. So thanks signallers for doing what you do, because I couldn't.

 

[Dunnideer]

What kind of sanction is given to signallers for offering wrong routes to drivers? I’ve heard it’s very little, whereas a driver who takes an offered wrong route is in bother. Is it always down to ARS?

I’m still PQA, took an offered wrong route and was off the job immediately, pending investigation. I’ve heard apocryphally that signallers don’t see it as a big deal, as they receive no comeback for their error…it’s the driver’s fault for accepting the wrong route.

It will be investigated and they’ll be put on a Development Action Plan which is intended to help prevent them from making a similar error. Usually lasts 3 or 4 months and also means more focus on them by the management. Repeated errors result in increased support and eventually monitoring for poor performance. Ultimately if it carries on this leads to discipline: downgrading or dismissal.

Any signaller can get caught out with a wrong route occasionally, it is very easy to wrong route if you are distracted and the Train Planning dept are apt to lay several traps for the unwary (especially around timetable changes). But it’s generally the few signallers with attention management issues and poor focus who keep repeatedly wrong routing and will be managed accordingly.

From what I’ve seen the TOCS tend to manage drivers like they’re naughty primary school children but, although it’s not quite as bad on the signaller’s side, there are most definitely consequences for mistakes and poor decision making. It has changed a bit over the years. Wrong routes didn’t used to be a big deal but now with the arrival of Non Technical Skills it’s taken much more seriously because it can point towards there being a much bigger problem with someone’s work. There’s absolutely no hesitation in relieving a signaller of duty and taking them out of the box if they’ve made a cock up.

[edited to add - I’m a MOM but also a former signaller]

 

[MostlyHarmless]

What kind of sanction is given to signallers for offering wrong routes to drivers? I’ve heard it’s very little, whereas a driver who takes an offered wrong route is in bother. Is it always down to ARS?

I’m still PQA, took an offered wrong route and was off the job immediately, pending investigation. I’ve heard apocryphally that signallers don’t see it as a big deal, as they receive no comeback for their error…it’s the driver’s fault for accepting the wrong route.

I’m not flinging mud, just trying to gain an understanding. We got to visit the ROC briefly, but our lead instructor cancelled a signal-box visit as he couldn’t be bothered

Where I worked as a signaller there was some paperwork to fill in and a talk with the Shift Manager but that was it generally if it was a one off. If you had several of these in a short period of time then you'd be invited for a chat with your line manager to see what was going on and if additional training was needed. I'm not sure about places that use ARS - we had NX panels where the routes were set by the signaller.


Re box visits - we had some SWR trainee drivers pay us a visit on what turned out to be a very busy day - including on my panel where I had been been passing trains past signals at danger all day. They were really impressed with the how we managed the issues and the professionalism of everyone. I confess I may have left a train waiting a red before because I was dealing with something else, but it wasn't done to wind drivers up!

 

[E27007]

I'm a retired driver, but I never messed with Signalers, mess with a Signaler and he will keep you to time, treat him with respect and he will help you back to depot for a "job and knock" early finish.
I once had a Rolling Failure out on the line in the early hours of the morning (turned out as contaminated fuel filters) , it took all my concentration and experience just to keep the thing moving for 10 miles , the Siganaller sensed the struggle in my telephone message, and he did all the hard work of coordinating three individual Control Offices ( one being a Depot) to give me an clear road to a Depot where it could be screwed down out of harms way. Out on the road, you want to keep the Signaller on your side at all times

 

[endofthetunnel]

In terms of wrong routing, as a signaller we are basically dealt with the same whether the driver takes the route or not - as we have made the mistake. Even if we immediately notice the error, we often can’t just change our minds and get away with it as this will change aspects, and lock routes etc, so there are still delays and knocks on. Depending on areas, those delay minutes go on our record as well as the wrong route itself.

Drivers offered a wrong route who don’t take it, have made no error, obviously! I would say if in doubt about your signal, always ring us to check.

We have much bigger issues which are safety related like sending trains into line blocks, or incorrectly and unsafely dealing with failures, which are dealt with by being immediately relieved of duty and med screened etc - like drivers would be for a SPAD.

And always feel free to drop an ‘at sig’ when you’re at a red, normally we know and just tell you to ‘wait’ (which is sadly the only option!) while we deal with the situation/wait for the route to clear/etc but the one time I have forgotten about you or something has failed and I need to call you, that could save us both some precious time!

 

[choochoochoo]

To take this a step further.

If I see I'm getting a wrong routing, and call the signaller up and advise them of it, and no delay is experienced to reset the signal, is that the end of it ? We deal with it between us and nothing more is done ? Or are we both expected to complete a signalling irregularity report ? (Obviously if significant delay minutes are incurred then a report will then no doubt be needed).

I have a feeling I know the technically correct answer, but what would you prefer as a signaller ?

 

[High Dyke]

To take this a step further.

If I see I'm getting a wrong routing, and call the signaller up and advise them of it, and no delay is experienced to reset the signal, is that the end of it ? We deal with it between us and nothing more is done ? Or are we both expected to complete a signalling irregularity report ? (Obviously if significant delay minutes are incurred then a report will then no doubt be needed).

I have a feeling I know the technically correct answer, but what would you prefer as a signaller ?

Delay attribution can be like playing pass the parcel. No-one wants to, or intends to cause a delay.

From a signalling point of view some locations may allow you to reset the correct route before a driver sees any adverse aspects. However, I work a location with a 4-minute back lock, so the signaller just has to accept the blame and explain to management. Too many error codes may result in being placed on a development plan.

If a driver takes a wrong route, the delay is split between either party and both sides complete an incident report.

 

[endofthetunnel]

Personally I can’t speak for what drivers should do.

On our side it honestly depends.
NR/RSSB/ORR quite rightly want to deal with the underlying factors and not just blame the signaller - but at least at the delay stage it has to go somewhere.

If it’s a simple signaller not paying attention and sending a train the wrong way, then I dare say they might want to keep it quiet - but if the driver was to report it and signaller hadn’t then we get into issues.

If it’s the one 2Pxx (for example) a week that goes to B vice A then there’s obviously potential for error here so maybe we should be looking at a new headcode or a big reminder in the box rather than just blame the person.
If it’s maybe a VSTP schedule change and there’s just some genuine confusion then it’s a lack of communication etc.

On my patch as an example we have a depot and once a week or so a driver won’t have the right route knowledge or a set will need turning, so the standard headcode suddenly goes a different way, and no one will tell us - and if we don’t check trust in detail there’s huge potential to wrong route. Most drivers will call before leaving the depot to prompt us, great.
If we’re not in the middle of an incident or busy spell then we should and do have time to check for ourselves and get it right, but if we just send it normal route because something else is going on…