Greater Manchester Bus Franchising Assessment

[RT4038]

There are other things that will reduce PVR on Oxford Road besides cutting a bit of the overbussing back. The present single-door double-decker operation causes proportionally very long dwell times at stops, often several minutes at particularly busy ones like Fallowfield and the two University stops. Replace that with 3-door artics with all door boarding (or even with London style on at the front, off at the back) and it would be reduced substantially.

It's about time this rampant "we've always done this way" conservatism was challenged. For this kind of route, we need to be looking at no stop being longer than 30 seconds or so unless wheelchair access is required on that occasion - at quiet stops even shorter, ideally perhaps 10-15 seconds. That needs off-bus ticketing or a big move to contactless payment with a flat fare London-style (no paying cash to the driver), it needs wide, fast-moving doors and it needs buses with lots of space inside and no motivation not to "move down" so needs an exit door as far back as feasible. These can only sensibly be delivered using single-deck artics (or 15m single deck rigid buses if the route can be made suitable).

It genuinely is educational as I said above to compare Oxford Road with Metrobus 5 in Hamburg, they are VERY similar routes with hugely different implementation. I genuinely think some TfGM officials should take a trip over there and ride on it when deciding how to design the future of bus transport on Oxford Road.

Possibly because we are less accepting of fare evasion than the Germans? There is much less acceptance of subsidy to public transport in our culture than in Europe, and definitely no desire for taxes to increase to pay for others to evade their fares. Look at the main outcry against bendi buses in London ..... European legal and cultural practice is far different to ours (compulsory carrying of ID cards etc) which makes ticket enforcement much more difficult here.

 

[radamfi]

Possibly because we are less accepting of fare evasion than the Germans? There is much less acceptance of subsidy to public transport in our culture than in Europe, and definitely no desire for taxes to increase to pay for others to evade their fares. Look at the main outcry against bendi buses in London ..... European legal and cultural practice is far different to ours (compulsory carrying of ID cards etc) which makes ticket enforcement much more difficult here.

TfL have however quietly reintroduced open boarding (in all but name) on the New Routemaster. When loadings become too high, single door boarding severely impacts on journey time. There may be increased fare evasion with open boarding but the alternative means increased vehicle requirement. When it comes to trams, the UK (Manchester, London and Nottingham) allow open boarding in a more liberal fashion compared to the continent. They don't sell tickets on the tram at all whereas in several tram networks in Europe they have open boarding but allow ticket purchase from the tram driver. Amsterdam even make you board through certain doors only so the driver or conductor can see you validating or showing your ticket.

Open boarding on buses is quite rare in the Netherlands and only applies on certain busy routes. They had open boarding until the mid 90s but decided fare evasion was too high. Some cities (for example in Germany) that normally allow open boarding have front door only entry with driver inspection in the evening. So you don't absolutely need open boarding as long as most people use a fast payment method such as smartcards.

I've travelled on a lot of Dutch buses today in various parts of the country and everywhere I've been now has full Chip & PIN machines including contactless to enable cash to be withdrawn. Cards are now accepted as a means of paying for a paper ticket. If that became a major form of payment then that would cause delays to services but I have only seen the PIN being entered once with contactless being used about 3 times. The vast majority of passengers use the OV-Chipkaart smartcard. Card payment has only been introduced as a backup for the few people who don't have the smartcard.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Possibly because we are less accepting of fare evasion than the Germans? There is much less acceptance of subsidy to public transport in our culture than in Europe, and definitely no desire for taxes to increase to pay for others to evade their fares. Look at the main outcry against bendi buses in London ..... European legal and cultural practice is far different to ours (compulsory carrying of ID cards etc) which makes ticket enforcement much more difficult here.

Possibly so, but that doesn't prevent London style "on at the front, off at the back" with the touch in pad by the driver, which still demonstrably speeds things up over single door and cash payment.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Open boarding on buses is quite rare in the Netherlands and only applies on certain busy routes. They had open boarding until the mid 90s but decided fare evasion was too high. Some cities (for example in Germany) that normally allow open boarding have front door only entry with driver inspection in the evening. So you don't absolutely need open boarding as long as most people use a fast payment method such as smartcards.

Indeed not, and London demonstrates that. But single-door does slow things down a lot on any cross city type route where people both board and alight at the same time. (It's fine on a traditional "pick up on the way into town and drop everyone at the sawtooth bus station" type route - but big cities don't have many of those).

 

[radamfi]

Indeed not, and London demonstrates that. But single-door does slow things down a lot on any cross city type route where people both board and alight at the same time. (It's fine on a traditional "pick up on the way into town and drop everyone at the sawtooth bus station" type route - but big cities don't have many of those).

Are single door buses used for busy bus routes in any major city outside UK and Ireland?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are single door buses used for busy bus routes in any major city outside UK and Ireland?

None that I've seen.

 

[nerd]

Metrolink fare zone map published for consultation.

https://www.greatermanchester-ca.gov.uk/meetings/meeting/513/greater_manchester_combined_authority

Implication being that the same zones (and likely equivalent pricing rules) should also apply to bus/tram trips, and to likely bus only trips too.

 

[PermitToTravel]

It's a bit disappointing that they're not proposing to dual-zone New Islington

 

[nerd]

It's a bit disappointing that they're not proposing to dual-zone New Islington

Not sure why that is excluded. I can see the logic of saying that trips from Monsall and Queens Road into Victoria should cross zones; less so for New Islington. Contribute that thought to the consultation perhaps?

 

[Dentonian]

I don't know the area, but the census suggests most commuter bus use on Hyde Road is/was inside the M60, with most of the rest from Denton, not Hyde. So it would seem to me that the line to Marple via Reddish would be the best one to reduce demand there. Can't do much about Denton though.

Most commuter use probably *is* now from inside the M60 - that certainly didn't use to be the case. However, the quadruple whammy of De-regulation; completion of the M60 itself; kicking Hyde Road corridor buses out of the city centre and the change in school hours, has largely isolated the non-motorist population of Denton/Haughton Green especially, from the city centre whose "overspill" residents largely made up their population in the second half of the 20th Century.

As an aside (not really!) what do you mean by "the best one to reduce demand"? For what do you want to reduce demand?

 

[PermitToTravel]

Not sure why that is excluded. I can see the logic of saying that trips from Monsall and Queens Road into Victoria should cross zones; less so for New Islington. Contribute that thought to the consultation perhaps?

Certainly shall be doing - it was a bugbear of mine when I lived there that the fare to places like Velopark was so steep; but could be nearly halved by walking to Holt Town, only a couple of hundred metres away

 

[158756]

Most commuter use probably *is* now from inside the M60 - that certainly didn't use to be the case. However, the quadruple whammy of De-regulation; construction of the M60 itself; kicking Hyde Road corridor buses out of the city centre and the change in school hours, has largely isolated the non-motorist population of Denton/Haughton Green especially, from the city centre whose "overspill" residents largely made up their population in the second half of the 20th Century.

As an aside (not really!) what do you mean by "the best one to reduce demand"? For what do you want to reduce demand?

I was responding to the suggestion that Metrolink to Glossop would reduce the need for buses on Hyde Road - suggesting that conversion of Belle Vue, Ryder Brow and Reddish North would have more impact.

What significant change in school hours has occurred and how has it affected regular bus services?

Metrolink fare zone map published for consultation.

https://www.greatermanchester-ca.gov.uk/meetings/meeting/513/greater_manchester_combined_authority

Implication being that the same zones (and likely equivalent pricing rules) should also apply to bus/tram trips, and to likely bus only trips too.

Not sure about equivalent pricing? Metrolink pricing works on a zonal system of sorts already - this proposal just simplifies ticketing and unifies equivalent zones on different lines, very much based on the radial arrangement of Metrolink . The further you travel from the city centre the more you pay. Buses currently don't work like that, and the web of fares includes many cheaper than the same distance on a tram, which will be difficult to get for of.

 

[WatcherZero]

They aren't considering bus zones (and these zones are too small to form bus zones) instead a flat bus fare with a reduction for money spent so far on Metrolink or vice versa.

Certainly shall be doing - it was a bugbear of mine when I lived there that the fare to places like Velopark was so steep; but could be nearly halved by walking to Holt Town, only a couple of hundred metres away

Was originally in the same zone as Holt Town but there was a successful local campaign by residents of the stop to have it moved in to the city zone to make travelling into and around the city centre cheaper.

 

[Dentonian]

They aren't considering bus zones (and these zones are too small to form bus zones) instead a flat bus fare with a reduction for money spent so far on Metrolink or vice versa.



Was originally in the same zone as Holt Town but there was a successful local campaign by residents of the stop to have it moved in to the city zone to make travelling into and around the city centre cheaper.

Can you clarify the comments about bus fares and where has this info come from?

 

[WatcherZero]

The GMCA meeting, they said their aim was a multimodal fares system which recognised how much you had already spent rather than treating each leg as a distinct journey.

https://manchester.public-i.tv/core/portal/webcast_interactive/354596

The adult all day bus pass is already slightly cheaper than all zones Metrolink ticket which would make synchronising it with Metrolink zonal fare structure hard and very complex. (essentially you can go anywhere in the county for the same price as the Metrolink 4 zone which only covers around a third of the county) and the Rail Ranger ticket which again covers the whole county is only slightly more expensive that the Metrolink day ticket.

If I had to guess a structure it would be something like a flat fare bus system, £2-2.50 for one journey of any length and £4-5 for all day travel then if you had paid a Metrolink or rail fare that day you only pay the single bus fare as an addon for unlimited bus travel.

I went to look at the Plusbus as a similar product to see if my fare estimates were comparable, the Manchester PlusBus which covers the centre of the county (just over a third) and costs £3.90 or the Wigan PlusBus which covers the North of the county (Wigan, Bolton, Bury upto just inside Salford, again just under 1/3rd the county) and again is £3.90. So I think my upper price estimate is about right with a discount to todays rates under franchising to encourage multi-modal taking advantage of the savings from flat fare, potentially cashless pricing.

 

[Dentonian]

I was responding to the suggestion that Metrolink to Glossop would reduce the need for buses on Hyde Road - suggesting that conversion of Belle Vue, Ryder Brow and Reddish North would have more impact.

What significant change in school hours has occurred and how has it affected regular bus services?


Not sure about equivalent pricing? Metrolink pricing works on a zonal system of sorts already - this proposal just simplifies ticketing and unifies equivalent zones on different lines, very much based on the radial arrangement of Metrolink . The further you travel from the city centre the more you pay. Buses currently don't work like that, and the web of fares includes many cheaper than the same distance on a tram, which will be difficult to get for of.

I was afraid you would see (further) reduced services along Hyde Road as a good thing. Though it is interesting to note on the limited stop services thread in the context of M'cr to Blackpool, your comment about very high car ownership. What do you class as "very high" ? As regards school hours. These have changed from typically 0845-1545 in 70s/80s to 0815-1430 today. The effect s being increase d traffic; actual/perceived increase in ASB and not just on buses. This also restricts earning power for single parents. Initially it also added to operating costs for school buses, but this is mitigated by YSBs and larger operators moving away from school work.

 

[Dentonian]

The GMCA meeting, they said their aim was a multimodal fares system which recognised how much you had already spent rather than treating each leg as a distinct journey.

https://manchester.public-i.tv/core/portal/webcast_interactive/354596

The adult all day bus pass is already slightly cheaper than all zones Metrolink ticket which would make synchronising it with Metrolink zonal fare structure hard and very complex. (essentially you can go anywhere in the county for the same price as the Metrolink 4 zone which only covers around a third of the county) and the Rail Ranger ticket which again covers the whole county is only slightly more expensive that the Metrolink day ticket.

If I had to guess a structure it would be something like a flat fare bus system, £2-2.50 for one journey of any length and £4-5 for all day travel then if you had paid a Metrolink or rail fare that day you only pay the single bus fare as an addon for unlimited bus travel.

I went to look at the Plusbus as a similar product to see if my fare estimates were comparable, the Manchester PlusBus which covers the centre of the county (just over a third) and costs £3.90 or the Wigan PlusBus which covers the North of the county (Wigan, Bolton, Bury upto just inside Salford, again just under 1/3rd the county) and again is £3.90. So I think my upper price estimate is about right with a discount to todays rates under franchising to encourage multi-modal taking advantage of the savings from flat fare, potentially cashless pricing.

I suppose £2 for a single journey is the best we could hope for even if it does equate to about 10 miles worth of fuel in a small car. OTOH, it gets you 1.5 miles maximum on buses at the moment - less on some commercial services.

The concept of buses being an "add on" is clearly aimed at visitors from outside the county.

 

[WatcherZero]

Looking up London Oyster prices, its £1.50 for a single on bus or tram capping at £4.50 for each mode (essentially 3 singles) or £5 for combined bus/tram, though the average distances of the journeys will be much shorter both by tram(3.9 miles Tramlink, 6.5 miles Metrolink) and bus (3.5 miles London, 5.1 miles short distance (non coach) trips outside London).

I could see a similar if slightly more expensive system in Greater Manchester (Metrolink 4 individual zones capping at all 4 zones for a day ticket) then add a bus single.

 

[radamfi]

£5 for combined bus/tram

That's only if you buy a paper ticket from an agent, which very few people do. It only exists as a backup for those without an Oyster card, contactless card, or other ticket. Essentially buses and trams in London have the same fare and a combined bus/tram single journey in London will cost £1.50 with unlimited free bus or tram interchanges for one hour.

If sounds like a franchised bus system will still have very poor fare integration and will be a missed opportunity if a combined bus/tram journey costs more than a tram only journey for the same distance.

 

[Dentonian]

That's only if you buy a paper ticket from an agent, which very few people do. It only exists as a backup for those without an Oyster card, contactless card, or other ticket. Essentially buses and trams in London have the same fare and a combined bus/tram single journey in London will cost £1.50 with unlimited free bus or tram interchanges for one hour.

If sounds like a franchised bus system will still have very poor fare integration and will be a missed opportunity if a combined bus/tram journey costs more than a tram only journey for the same distance.

I think we are still missing the point; for the majority of car-less tax payers, bus will continue to be the only accessible option - especially for essential journeys (shopping, health, low wage jobs). And, for now, that means a simple bus there/bus back, which for shopping and primary/secondary health, usually means starting the return leg within 60 minutes of completing the outward leg. So really, there should be a daily cap of £3*, which will still be around 20 minutes pay for most people in these areas. Rail (heavy and light) will remain an irrelevance to most without private transport, so why should buses be the "extra"?

*Remember both Average and Minimum wages in GM are lower than in London. Then again, petrol diesel is cheaper here and in most cases outside the city centre Parking is cheap or free.

If we do nothing to narrow the chasm between the cost of driving and the cost of not driving, that will be the real missed oppurtunity, as congestion will continue to grow - and the more people need a car, the more people use it.

 

[radamfi]

I think we are still missing the point; for the majority of car-less tax payers, bus will continue to be the only accessible option - especially for essential journeys (shopping, health, low wage jobs). And, for now, that means a simple bus there/bus back, which for shopping and primary/secondary health, usually means starting the return leg within 60 minutes of completing the outward leg. So really, there should be a daily cap of £3*, which will still be around 20 minutes pay for most people in these areas. Rail (heavy and light) will remain an irrelevance to most without private transport, so why should buses be the "extra"?

*Remember both Average and Minimum wages in GM are lower than in London. Then again, petrol diesel is cheaper here and in most cases outside the city centre Parking is cheap or free.

If we do nothing to narrow the chasm between the cost of driving and the cost of not driving, that will be the real missed oppurtunity, as congestion will continue to grow - and the more people need a car, the more people use it.

London is not a textbook model as it retains its separate legacy bus and Tube fare systems. It used to have separate tram fares as well but they were equalised to bus fares some time ago. We should be blind to whether the vehicle has steel or rubber tyres. Comparable cities outside the UK and Ireland generally don't have a distinct fare structure for buses.

 

[158756]

London is not a textbook model as it retains its separate legacy bus and Tube fare systems. It used to have separate tram fares as well but they were equalised to bus fares some time ago. We should be blind to whether the vehicle has steel or rubber tyres. Comparable cities outside the UK and Ireland generally don't have a distinct fare structure for buses.

Manchester already has distinct fare structures though. Equalising at Metrolink levels is neither desirable for single tickets or acceptable for period tickets. GM doesn't have the money for substantial cuts to Metrolink fares.

 

[Robertj21a]

Apologies if this has already been covered but is there a part of the plan that will enable extra funding for transport improvements to be obtained from increased local taxation ?

 

[radamfi]

Manchester already has distinct fare structures though. Equalising at Metrolink levels is neither desirable for single tickets or acceptable for period tickets. GM doesn't have the money for substantial cuts to Metrolink fares.

Something has to give if we are going to have proper fare integration. Without a substantial increase in subsidy, some fares would go up and some would go down. Yes, politically difficult, but paying more to change is a significant barrier to increasing patronage.

 

[Dentonian]

Something has to give if we are going to have proper fare integration. Without a substantial increase in subsidy, some fares would go up and some would go down. Yes, politically difficult, but paying more to change is a significant barrier to increasing patronage.

Changing vehicles full stop is a significant barrier, due to the appalling reliability of both rail modes and poor punctuality of all three modes. Also, as I understand it, the "target" has changed after the external consultants looked at the state of the market and patronage trends. Its not about increasing patronage, its about slowing the rate of decline.

 

[Dentonian]

Manchester already has distinct fare structures though. Equalising at Metrolink levels is neither desirable for single tickets or acceptable for period tickets. GM doesn't have the money for substantial cuts to Metrolink fares.

Again, "desirable" to who?

 

[158756]

Again, "desirable" to who?

Well, posters are talking about £1.50 or £2, I don't think they're after £3.80 to Droylsden or £4.40 to Wythenshawe.

 

[radamfi]

Well, posters are talking about £1.50 or £2, I don't think they're after £3.80 to Droylsden or £4.40 to Wythenshawe.

Metrolink one-way fares are artificially high at the moment because they follow the British railway tradition of single being not much less than the cost of a return. A smartcard system would probably mean the implementation of single leg pricing, as that is what happened when pay as you go was introduced on National Rail lines in London. Although the KeyGo from GTR shows that it is possible to create a pay as you go smartcard system which charges the same fares as paper tickets, because they use overnight batch processing.

 

[Dentonian]

Well, posters are talking about £1.50 or £2, I don't think they're after £3.80 to Droylsden or £4.40 to Wythenshawe.

Well, that's opened up a can of worms. Although you didn't spell it out, I know from the point of view taken by most on this subject, you were talking Metrolink and from the city centre. I've just done a comparison with Stagecoach and didn't realise they were competing with Metrolink on price. Fares for *both* modes between Ashton & Droylsden and between the Airport & Wythenshawe are rock bottom. For instance, an Off-peak return on Metrolink from the Airport to Wythenshawe is just £2. TWO POUNDS! Its £3 on the bus. For most parts of GM there is effectively a flat fare of (at least) £4.50 for any essential trip (as I described #560). These massive fare anomolies must be addressed.

 

[WatcherZero]

Apologies if this has already been covered but is there a part of the plan that will enable extra funding for transport improvements to be obtained from increased local taxation ?

There is a mechanism for retaining the uplift in business rates (increased tax revenue from higher property prices over what would normally be expected) that infrastructure investment generates rather than returning it to Westminster for redistribution, but that would be for supporting capital rather than revenue schemes. Metropolitan counties have transport levy's as part of Council tax alongside other services such as police and fire that supports revenue services and a small amount of capital schemes (mostly it just offsets the interest payments on loans taken out for schemes), A combined authority mayor also has the ability to make a Mayoral levy similar to Mayor of London for transport or other capital schemes.

In Burnhams first year all hes done is shuffle the cards a little, moved the responsibility for funding some long term transport studies from TfGM to the Mayors office (about £4m worth) while reducing the normal transport levy by the exact same amount so no net change to Council Tax.