Greater Manchester Bus Franchising Assessment

[Dentonian]

Indeed, this is one area where the UK lags desperately behind - and causes so many delays.

Not convinced about this argument that cash paying customers are to blame for delays. My own observations suggest First's claims are grossly exaggerated, and that traffic lights and extraction from bus stops cause far longer delays overall than passengers fiddling with change. And that's with the existing, complicated fare scales.

As regards off-bus sales; even at busy stops TVMs will be vandalised. It already happens at Tram stops where there is more likely to be security personnel at certain times; Also, which "local shops" would you sell them at? What would their "cut" be? How far from bus stops would they be? Would they be open at all hours that buses run? As has been mentioned elsewhere (on another thread?), public transport - especially bus - use, is not part of the "psyche" in this country, outside London, like it is in Europe and other developed countries. Shop owners don't identify with bus passengers, only car owners arguing for free and easier parking.

Not quite such a problem for those starting the journey in Manchester, admittedly. Presumably, they would be bought from Travelshops at Piccadilly etc, and the frequency of buses to MRI would mean any delay in having to purchase the ticket before boarding would be minimal. Also, a hospital visit would be an essential journey, so it wouldn't be a wasted purchase.
Broadening the argument out though, what about the intention to use buses (at least for the first leg) on a day out. Especially, if on a Sunday. If your journey is based on a timed connection, you don't want to purchase the ticket in advance, only to find he bus doesn't turn up or is sufficiently late that you know the connection probably (or definately) won't be made. Albeit I have a pass, this effectively happened to me on two out of three occasions in 2015, where a 13 minute connection in Stockport bus station failed (once by 2 minutes, the other by 6), thus delaying me. At that time, I had a slower alternative, but that has since been withdrawn, so I would now have an hour's delay. Consequently, I have not attempted the journey on a Sunday, since.

 

[radamfi]

Not convinced about this argument that cash paying customers are to blame for delays. My own observations suggest First's claims are grossly exaggerated, and that traffic lights and extraction from bus stops cause far longer delays overall than passengers fiddling with change. And that's with the existing, complicated fare scales.

Delays due to traffic need to be addressed as a matter of priority, that goes without saying. But any delays caused by boarding times are fully within the control of the bus company. Arguably, to justify proper and necessary bus priority and/or busways and/or any other traffic reduction measure intended to improve bus journey times, the bus company should have done everything in its power to save time.

As regards off-bus sales; even at busy stops TVMs will be vandalised. It already happens at Tram stops where there is more likely to be security personnel at certain times; Also, which "local shops" would you sell them at? What would their "cut" be? How far from bus stops would they be? Would they be open at all hours that buses run? As has been mentioned elsewhere (on another thread?), public transport - especially bus - use, is not part of the "psyche" in this country, outside London, like it is in Europe and other developed countries. Shop owners don't identify with bus passengers, only car owners arguing for free and easier parking.

In London, ticket outlets tend to be independent ("corner") shops. System One tickets are already available from Paypoint outlets so that is probably adequate enough.

You don't necessarily need to ban on bus purchase altogether. The Netherlands has a nationwide smartcard which is used for the overwhelming majority of journeys, however every bus still sells paper tickets for single journeys. It just costs a lot more, so most people try and avoid buying from the driver.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed, this is one area where the UK lags desperately behind - and causes so many delays.

It costs bus companies a fortune in increased PVRs and loss of passengers as buses are too slow, yet they sit there going “la la la” and carrying on as they were.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not convinced about this argument that cash paying customers are to blame for delays. My own observations suggest First's claims are grossly exaggerated, and that traffic lights and extraction from bus stops cause far longer delays overall than passengers fiddling with change. And that's with the existing, complicated fare scales.

It doesn’t matter what causes delays - all the causes need eradicating. In Germany or London, with two doors and no cash payments, buses typically stop at each stop for no more than 10 to 20 seconds. A cash transaction takes probably 10 to 20 seconds per passenger. Up that to the high loadings on Oxford Road and you’re talking minutes per stop. It’s nonsense, and it needs to stop.

On a frequently stopping service, even tiny things matter. Adding hustle alarms increased running time on Ormskirk to Liverpool trains from 30 to 32 minutes.

As regards off-bus sales; even at busy stops TVMs will be vandalised. It already happens at Tram stops where there is more likely to be security personnel at certain times; Also, which "local shops" would you sell them at? What would their "cut" be? How far from bus stops would they be? Would they be open at all hours that buses run? As has been mentioned elsewhere (on another thread?), public transport - especially bus - use, is not part of the "psyche" in this country, outside London, like it is in Europe and other developed countries. Shop owners don't identify with bus passengers, only car owners arguing for free and easier parking.

The obvious option is a deal with PayPoint and PayZone, then there is a huge network of sales points. Some bus companies already have such a deal for season tickets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You don't necessarily need to ban on bus purchase altogether. The Netherlands has a nationwide smartcard which is used for the overwhelming majority of journeys, however every bus still sells paper tickets for single journeys. It just costs a lot more, so most people try and avoid buying from the driver.

There is an argument for banning it - driver safety, if there is no cash on the bus one cause of assault is removed.

 

[HSTEd]

The vast majority of passengers boarding on the Oxford Road corridor have various types of bus pass.

If weekly bus passes could be bought off-bus in one or two locations, for example Fallowfield or at the Uni, we would probably get higher takeup.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The vast majority of passengers boarding on the Oxford Road corridor have various types of bus pass.

If weekly bus passes could be bought off-bus in one or two locations, for example Fallowfield or at the Uni, we would probably get higher takeup.

A unified system could offer a Semester Ticket via the universities. Though I think Stagey already do.

 

[HSTEd]

I hold a Unirrider for the year on Stagecoach and Megabus - but many students balk at the up front cost.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I hold a Unirrider for the year on Stagecoach and Megabus - but many students balk at the up front cost.

Offer it by monthly direct debit?

 

[radamfi]

There is an argument for banning it - driver safety, if there is no cash on the bus one cause of assault is removed.

That's the main reason for banning cash payment on buses in many areas of the Netherlands, however they have introduced card payment on buses as a backup.

 

[carlberry]

It has not been possible to buy a ticket on board London buses for some time, and this has not been causing any significant issues.

The decline in the number of passengers isn't a significant issue?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The decline in the number of passengers isn't a significant issue?

Is there evidence of that being caused by the ticketing change and not, for example, improved cycling provision, service cuts or other reasons?

 

[Dentonian]

It doesn’t matter what causes delays - all the causes need eradicating. In Germany or London, with two doors and no cash payments, buses typically stop at each stop for no more than 10 to 20 seconds. A cash transaction takes probably 10 to 20 seconds per passenger. Up that to the high loadings on Oxford Road and you’re talking minutes per stop. It’s nonsense, and it needs to stop.

On a frequently stopping service, even tiny things matter. Adding hustle alarms increased running time on Ormskirk to Liverpool trains from 30 to 32 minutes.



The obvious option is a deal with PayPoint and PayZone, then there is a huge network of sales points. Some bus companies already have such a deal for season tickets.

I think we are forgetting that most passengers already have pre-paid tickets of one type or another, and 10 to 20 seconds at a stop is only regularly exceeded on Monday morning peaks and in bus stations/major pick up points. What I'm saying is that we have to stop this "We can please SOME of the people, all of the time and **** the rest" attitude we have in 21st century Britain. Coincidentally, an employee of First Manchester (albeit semi-retired) who is not a member of this or any similar forum, e-mailed me last night. Amongst the points he was making was that he would never contemplate travelling by megabus because he refuses to pay for things on the internet! And that's from an employee of a firm that is obsessed with Twitter and is leading the way in punishing customers of a similar mind.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think we are forgetting that most passengers already have pre-paid tickets of one type or another, and 10 to 20 seconds at a stop is only regularly exceeded on Monday morning peaks and in bus stations/major pick up points.

I think that is not universal. There are still a lot of cash payers in MK, for instance. But my point is that 10 seconds count. We really need to remove ANY dwell time at stops, because any slowdown makes the bus less attractive than the car. It needs to become “open doors, everyone pile on/off, close doors”. Like it is almost everywhere except backward, outdated provincial Britain. Like it is on trains and trams.

What I'm saying is that we have to stop this "We can please SOME of the people, all of the time and **** the rest" attitude we have in 21st century Britain. Coincidentally, an employee of First Manchester (albeit semi-retired) who is not a member of this or any similar forum, e-mailed me last night. Amongst the points he was making was that he would never contemplate travelling by megabus because he refuses to pay for things on the internet! And that's from an employee of a firm that is obsessed with Twitter and is leading the way in punishing customers of a similar mind.

Punishing? What nonsense. By paying cash on board, people are punished by getting a slower journey.

We would never contemplate such a stupid and inefficient method of operation as paying a train driver. Why a bus driver?

What we need to stop is making things hugely inefficient to pander to a few Luddites. Perhaps if he feels there is enough business for it he could set up a travel agency which, for a fee, would book him a Megabus ticket (I bet any independent travel agent would do so). Or maybe travel agents are dying off because there is little demand...

 

[radamfi]

Like it is on trains and trams.

It is another peculiarity that tram drivers selling tickets is unthinkable, but for buses it is considered the norm. It is an example of the bus' status being so much lower than a tram, whereas in other countries that is less of an issue. In some other countries they do sell tickets, but usually not many for the same reason why not many people buy tickets from a bus driver. It costs a lot more. As usual, London is the exception. In London, buses and trams cost the same and neither sell tickets on the vehicle. London trams started out with higher fares but they were equalised with bus fares a long time ago. They are even getting rid of the tram stop machines.

Perhaps if he feels there is enough business for it he could set up a travel agency which, for a fee, would book him a Megabus ticket (I bet any independent travel agent would do so). Or maybe travel agents are dying off because there is little demand...

Megabus have a ticket office in Shudehill bus station. The TfGM Travelshop in Shudehill bus station has also sold tickets, although that may have stopped since the ticket office opened.

Buying off bus was a thing well before the internet. GM was even at the forefront of off bus ticketing with the ClipperCard ticket in the 80s. Denmark continued to use the same technology for buses and trains nationwide more than 25 years after they stopped being used in GM and their version of the Clippercard has only stopped being accepted in the last 2 or 3 years. They are still giving refunds for unused tickets until February 2018:

https://dinoffentligetransport.dk/k...sion-af-papklippekort-til-hovedstadsomraadet/

 

[Dentonian]

I think maybe we should broaden this out a bit, with a bit more constructive thought. Given that NO decision has been made on Franchising under Bus Reform in Gtr. Manchester - a public consultation is due in Summer 2018 - I think we should suggest what the responsibilities of different parties should be based on the level of control.

With this suggestion of banning cash fares, it seems logical that an experiment should be undertaken on Oxford Road corridor. This would be ideal due to the sheer number of buses and the high proportion of "tech-savvy" young people using the route(s). Based on existing services, MagicBus should become pre-paid with the proviso that Paypoints are available at both Piccadilly Travelshop and within the MRI complex. These should be open long enough to cater for at least out-patients, but ideally hospital visitors and casual staff (ie. WRVS volunteers, privatised cleaners on zero hours contracts etc). The idea would be that a big blue/yellow bus would clearly shout out "NO CASH FARES". Obviously, the problem is that Stagecoach widely use MagicBuses on normal services.
See how that goes and if the advantages/efficiencies gained (reduced running times) are sufficient, money could be invested in making it easier for other passengers to buy tickets in advance. However, they must be able to do this at all times they can reasonably expect to make their outward journey and from outlets close to at least the busiest stops. Maybe a validity period should also be built in, so that you can buy a single or even return ticket 60 or even 90 minutes before you start the journey. Clearly, simplified fare structures will help, and checking the details of Stagecoach Manchester's changes from Tuesday, I have already come across an anomoly: According to one of these mileage calculators it is 1.2 miles - though I suspect it is nearer 1.5 - from my nearest stop to the nearest major Supermarket. At present, the single fare is £2.30, and from Tuesday the journey to the Supermarket goes to £2.50. However, investigated seperately, it states the single fare in the opposite direction will only be £2. FTR, the position of bus stops means this journey would be about 100 metres longer!

Regarding the more general problem of bus speeds/journey times/punctuality, and again this is based more on Stagecoach than First:
The Operator needs to review overall AND intermediate running times, especially OFF peak. As an aside, they should do this route by route or even corridor not corridor, not the growing habit of changing off-peak Mon-Fri on one Service change date, then Saturday on the same service(s) 2-3 months later; then Eve/Suns next time and then peak hours next time. This current behaviour confuses the passenger and destabilises the route. It also incurs unneccesary costs in publicity, with timetables on each route changing 3-4 times a year. They also need to accept that if they reduce service levels significantly on captive market routes, then more time is needed to load the remaining services, irrespective of how the customers are paying.
Another thing that I have noticed is the increased time it is taking to effect crew reliefs, which I assume is due to a change in ticket machines. For years, these were done efficiently; drivers would pull up outside the depot; relief driver would board; pleasantries and important information (unexpected roadworks etc) would be exchanged; new machine loaded and coded, and off we would go; typically just a 30 seconds delay. In the last few years though, this has become a 3-4 minute chore with resulting delays. Notably, evening peak crew reliefs are much more common nowadays as well.
LAs (whether Councils, GMCA/TFGM or the Elected Mayor himself) need to review traffic light phasing/control urgently. This might mean fitting some sort of sensor to buses to stop lights changing to amber/red as it approaches. This is particularly important in the last few hundred metres before a terminus/major alighting point, and the current farce is highlighted by a crossroads near to me, where buses (and other traffic) have to wait on the main road for maybe 80 seconds, whilst the lights allow traffic out of he side roads, even on a Sunday. On one side the road simply serves a Rail Station that has barely two dozen departures all day and the opposite serves about 20 houses leading on to an Industrial Estate which presumably is deserted on a Sunday. There also needs to be a review of bus lanes, as current ones are too short and piecemeal; too often reduce general traffic from 2 lanes to one, wheras further out they could educe from 3 to 2 or even 4 to 3. They also need to be slightly widened to stop HGV drivers blocking bus progress through having their near side wing mirrors obstructing the bus lanes. Additionally, bus lanes should be bus lanes; NO taxis; "black" cabs should not be allowed to use them. As well as speeding up buses in general, it would stop the arguments between black cab drivers and Private hire drivers over favouritism, and if hey are not allowed in the bus lane to start with, they are less likely to stop in it.
Indeed, another major review should be the responsibility of law enforcement, especially de-criminalised offences such as bus stop blocking. This would mean Traffic/Parking Wardens/Civil Enforcement Officers (its not even clear who is responsible for what) being taken away from Council control and handed to GMCA. Whether through this, or existing arrangements, there needs to be some form of investigation into the extreme prejudice of these Wardens, or their bosses. This in turn might need to reform or strengthening of the DDA. The function of these "Wardens" should be to uphold the safety and freedom of all travellers, but especially those with disablities or are otherwise vulnerable. It is not to make money out of people parked legitimately in a safe place, but who have overrun their time by a couple of minutes or whose blue badge has slipped over in the windscreen.
More generally, the same might need to happen with the mainstream Police Force, to reduce their (supposed) financial burdens and to stop them using that as an excuse for "priorities".

Just a few "top of the head" thoughts, but it illustrates that there are many, many problems that need to be addressed rather than just saying those that can't/won't conform to the modern, computer controlled world should be punished. And I haven't touched on the problems that can't be addressed; Widespread free parking, completion of the M60 and the change in school hours (back in the 80s/90s) being the biggest in suburban GM, at least.

 

[Dentonian]

I think that is not universal. There are still a lot of cash payers in MK, for instance. But my point is that 10 seconds count. We really need to remove ANY dwell time at stops, because any slowdown makes the bus less attractive than the car. It needs to become “open doors, everyone pile on/off, close doors”. Like it is almost everywhere except backward, outdated provincial Britain. Like it is on trains and trams.



Punishing? What nonsense. By paying cash on board, people are punished by getting a slower journey.

We would never contemplate such a stupid and inefficient method of operation as paying a train driver. Why a bus driver?

This is what I call "relegation politics". To modestly improve the lives of the top 80%, you have to destroy the lives of the bottom 20%. No middle ground, no finding a solution to suit everyone - just hit those that don't fit the ideal and don't have anyone (lobbyists, media etc) to stand up for them.

The comparison with trains is largely spurious. Most people who use buses have no choice but to use buses; Most don't have a car (or bicycle) and don't live anywhere near a rail station. Virtually all bus journeys are by necessity; to work; shops; GP etc. Many rail journeys are "discretionary"; to posher shops; concerts/theatre, seaside etc. In GM, there are exactly 100 times more regularly served bus stops (each way) than there are train stations, and where train stations exist they are more likely to be in higher income/car ownership catchment areas.

The comparison with cars is even more spurious; not only for he reasons above, but also because you are talking about minute savings. Yes, at peak times a short car journey (2 miles or less) might be only marginally quicker than bus, but the further away from the centre you go, the bigger the difference. A 7 mile journey from where I used to live might take 30 minutes by car, but is now timetabled as 68 minutes by bus. 30-40 years ago, when virtually everybody paid cash, the same journey was timetabled at 42 minutes (with limited stop alternatives bringing it down to 28, at least when the schools were off. When there are roadworks/incidents, motorists can find alternative routes, buses can't (legally or sometimes physically).
Off-peak the differences are even bigger, as motorists can average 20-30 mph on main roads, and much more on such as the M60 - most of which is unserved by any buses. Buses struggle to average 10 mph.
Morally (if that's not a swear word), you could ask why someone who doesn't have an internet bank account, or can't afford an iphone/smart phone - or is too old to understand how they work - should have to be punished, just because motorists no longer give way to buses leaving bus stops?

PS. Have you seen the film Logan's Run, and did you think it was a "recruitment" video?

 

[Dentonian]

It is another peculiarity that tram drivers selling tickets is unthinkable, but for buses it is considered the norm. It is an example of the bus' status being so much lower than a tram, whereas in other countries that is less of an issue. In some other countries they do sell tickets, but usually not many for the same reason why not many people buy tickets from a bus driver. It costs a lot more. As usual, London is the exception. In London, buses and trams cost the same and neither sell tickets on the vehicle. London trams started out with higher fares but they were equalised with bus fares a long time ago. They are even getting rid of the tram stop machines.



Megabus have a ticket office in Shudehill bus station. The TfGM Travelshop in Shudehill bus station has also sold tickets, although that may have stopped since the ticket office opened.

I mentioned this to him, but again presumably there is a big financial penalty. Besides, as with Rail, tram and coach, megabus is for discretionary travel, with similar choices available, so such restrictions/costs are not devastating to the individual.

 

[Robertj21a]

Not convinced about this argument that cash paying customers are to blame for delays. My own observations suggest First's claims are grossly exaggerated, and that traffic lights and extraction from bus stops cause far longer delays overall than passengers fiddling with change. And that's with the existing, complicated fare scales.

As regards off-bus sales; even at busy stops TVMs will be vandalised. It already happens at Tram stops where there is more likely to be security personnel at certain times; Also, which "local shops" would you sell them at? What would their "cut" be? How far from bus stops would they be? Would they be open at all hours that buses run? As has been mentioned elsewhere (on another thread?), public transport - especially bus - use, is not part of the "psyche" in this country, outside London, like it is in Europe and other developed countries. Shop owners don't identify with bus passengers, only car owners arguing for free and easier parking.

Not quite such a problem for those starting the journey in Manchester, admittedly. Presumably, they would be bought from Travelshops at Piccadilly etc, and the frequency of buses to MRI would mean any delay in having to purchase the ticket before boarding would be minimal. Also, a hospital visit would be an essential journey, so it wouldn't be a wasted purchase.
Broadening the argument out though, what about the intention to use buses (at least for the first leg) on a day out. Especially, if on a Sunday. If your journey is based on a timed connection, you don't want to purchase the ticket in advance, only to find he bus doesn't turn up or is sufficiently late that you know the connection probably (or definately) won't be made. Albeit I have a pass, this effectively happened to me on two out of three occasions in 2015, where a 13 minute connection in Stockport bus station failed (once by 2 minutes, the other by 6), thus delaying me. At that time, I had a slower alternative, but that has since been withdrawn, so I would now have an hour's delay. Consequently, I have not attempted the journey on a Sunday, since.

I guess you've never witnessed bus operation across most of Europe ?. We're so far behind with fare collection that it's embarrassing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is what I call "relegation politics". To modestly improve the lives of the top 80%, you have to destroy the lives of the bottom 20%.

But what do you mean by bottom?

We have in my view reached the point where computing kit like iPads and very cheap Android tablets are so easy to use that they are near enough accessible to anyone, and free Wi-fi is all over the place.

That being the case, it would make more sense to give out free Android tablets, basic Internet access at home (low speed with a cap) and training than it makes sense to cater for other methods of purchase.

Think of it another way for a minute - technology improves things hugely for many people with disabilities and other restrictions. For instance, someone who is housebound is no longer relegated to third rate care services or putting demand on their families for shopping, they can simply order online. You no longer have to wheel your wheelchair to the station to book a journey and assistance, you can do it online/by phone.

All that really leaves is Luddites and refuseniks - not people needing help, people who refuse help. And where that causes a disadvantage to others - no, we should not pander to it. (Where it does not, I have no problem with it - if, for example, Megabus wish to offer staffed ticket offices on a commercial basis that is up to them, but I see no reason they should have to).

Morally (if that's not a swear word), you could ask why someone who doesn't have an internet bank account, or can't afford an iphone/smart phone - or is too old to understand how they work - should have to be punished, just because motorists no longer give way to buses leaving bus stops

Nobody is “too old” to learn to work a smartphone - look at the huge growth in silver surfers, people who have all the time in the world to play with IT kit and achieve some excellent results with it. Affordability can be dealt with by giving the basic kit out for free (Android tablets and netbook level laptops), it costs next to nothing and free wi-fi is ubiquitous.

And re pulling out of bus stops, you are missing the point. Both issues need to be addressed. Motorists not letting buses out is solved by having the stops in the traffic flow, or by clever use of traffic lights (which is and always was done much better abroad than here). Slow loading is dealt with by having dual doors and no ticket sales on board. Slow running is dealt with by way of sensible bus lane design, traffic light overtakes etc. We need ALL of it, not some of it. And none of it is anything new, if only the bus company managers would leave their little bubble and go and see how the rest of Europe does it and has for years.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I guess you've never witnessed bus operation across most of Europe ?. We're so far behind with fare collection that it's embarrassing.

Precisely. It is a costly, wasteful. inconvenient joke. Almost every other way of doing it (even a return to conductors as some of the tram systems do) is preferable.

 

[Dentonian]

I guess you've never witnessed bus operation across most of Europe ?. We're so far behind with fare collection that it's embarrassing.

Not extensively; the last time was 6 years ago in/around Barcelona. I bought a day ticket (iirc at the Airport) which gave me mutli modal transport into the city for a few hours, and then all he way out to Casteldelfils and back to the Hotel (near the Airport), all for the then equivalent of £3.47! And because it was based on time (90 minutes x 10 available sectors), I could have used it again in tghe evening and/or early the following morning, if hat had been relevant. So, not only was it based on long time sectors, but it could be interpreted as a discount for off bus purchase, not a penalty for on bus purchase, which given the high fares for short, essential journeys, is what is happening here.

 

[Dentonian]

But what do you mean by bottom?

We have in my view reached the point where computing kit like iPads and very cheap Android tablets are so easy to use that they are near enough accessible to anyone, and free Wi-fi is all over the place.



Nobody is “too old” to learn to work a smartphone - look at the huge growth in silver surfers, people who have all the time in the world to play with IT kit and achieve some excellent results with it. Affordability can be dealt with by giving the basic kit out for free (Android tablets and netbook level laptops), it costs next to nothing and free wi-fi is ubiquitous.

And re pulling out of bus stops, you are missing the point. Both issues need to be addressed. Motorists not letting buses out is solved by having the stops in the traffic flow, or by clever use of traffic lights (which is and always was done much better abroad than here). Slow loading is dealt with by having dual doors and no ticket sales on board. Slow running is dealt with by way of sensible bus lane design, traffic light overtakes etc. We need ALL of it, not some of it. And none of it is anything new, if only the bus company managers would leave their little bubble and go and see how the rest of Europe does it and has for years.

I concede after "research", basic smartphones are not as expensive as I thought. I paid £89 for mine three years ago, and understood it to be near the bottom of the range. However, there is no way my 89 year old mother could use a smartphone or computer, she can't even work the tele remote! A moot point to some extent as she has not been able to walk far unaided for the last 4 years anyway. But, in theory, you are still saying that if she was mobile enough to reach the bus stop, she would have to be penalised for paying by cash to access a GPs appointment before c.0945hrs?
"Wi-fi is all over the place" is an exaggeration. Last Saturday for instance, I travelled on 4 buses (3x Stagecoach and one High Peak) and it was only working on the newest of the three Stagecoach buses - and that wasn't the bus I started my journey on! As an aside, it wasn't working on the train I caught to work on Thursday - the only day I used the train, as it was cancelled (no staff) on Wednesday, and snow/ice on Friday meant the walk to the bus stop was not only much quicker, but much safer!

Having bus stops in the traffic flow - which is the situation on my route, as most lay-bys were removed (presumably due to illegal blocking) - does NOT solve the problem, as most motorists sit behind the bus until the driver puts his right hand indicator on, then as soon as a few inches gap is created, the lead car/van swerves round the bus (yes, in the face of oncoming traffic), and those behind follow suit. Dual doors in GM were banned before de-reg due to the high number of serious accidents with passengers alighting in the driver's blind spot. They also reduce capacity. Of course, there was no such restriction after De-reg, but outside London, virtually no commercial Operator has used them.

Yes, we may need "all of it", but not to the extent of literally stopping legitimate sections of society from travelling. If there are adequate alternatives available to ALL, BEFORE banning cash fares, then OK, do it....but not until. Hence why I suggested trying it on some Oxford Road services first, but no. Similarly, new technology can be a force for good, but often isn't, because the move to exclude without it seems stronger than the move to improve those with it. Apart from mas cyber-crime/fraud, it is also being used to attack basic democracy. Too many organisations not only restrict communication to Twitter only, but increasingly, this is the only way of voicing opinions, or at least, getting to know about consultations. Apparently, GMCA are inviting opinions on Policing Priorities, but I only know about it because I found a Twitter message at work whilst looking for something completely different.

 

[6Gman]

But what do you mean by bottom?

We have in my view reached the point where computing kit like iPads and very cheap Android tablets are so easy to use that they are near enough accessible to anyone, and free Wi-fi is all over the place.

That being the case, it would make more sense to give out free Android tablets, basic Internet access at home (low speed with a cap) and training than it makes sense to cater for other methods of purchase.

All that really leaves is Luddites and refuseniks - not people needing help, people who refuse help. And where that causes a disadvantage to others - no, we should not pander to it.

Nobody is “too old” to learn to work a smartphone - look at the huge growth in silver surfers, people who have all the time in the world to play with IT kit and achieve some excellent results with it. Affordability can be dealt with by giving the basic kit out for free (Android tablets and netbook level laptops), it costs next to nothing and free wi-fi is ubiquitous.

Just an observation but the other day, travelling around Birmingham (by rail admittedly) a major cause of delay at barriers was people using smartphones and such-like which wouldn't work the gates. My little piece of card however, bought from a human in a booking office, took me through each barrier in no time at all ...

And if there had been a problem the guy by the barrier could simply have read what was printed on my ticket, rather than being presented with a random* collection of squiggles on a smartphone screen.


* I realise that the squiggles aren't actually random, but not sure how easy they are for a human to interpret.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I think edwin_m put forward rather good arguments against compensation. Can you address them?

I already have done so ad nauseum. If we're talking about the issue of legislative changes then there is a world of difference. The example on the changes to room in residential homes is not that different to the impact of DDA. You can make commercial changes etc and that influences long term strategy. Of course, changes like DDA were about improving accessibility with a consequence on fleet replacement strategy etc. The Buses Bill is not a consequence - it is a direct impact on the operating model and the worth of the business.

Also very true. Anyone remember Citybus? Or Bu-Val?

Indeed, and other firms such as UK North. However, we have the legislative wherewithal to deal with poor operators. I'd also note that London has not been without its problems even in its regulated environment - see Boroline, Mitcham Belle, Harris Bus and, the best of all, Capital Logistics!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I am afraid we may be going round in circles.

If I buy my council house, I not only acquire legal title to the bricks and mortar; I also acquire an exclusive right to occupy the premises, against anyone else who might wish to live there.

Which was not true for bus operators post deregulation.

What First and Stagecoach bought were bus-owning operations - buses, depots, support facilities. They did not 'buy' an exclusive right to run bus routes or services, against others who might wish to do so; as the whole legal basis of deregulation was that all such 'rights' had been abolished (with no compensation, as it happens). Of course, both Stagecoach and First have since established and defended monopolistic market dominance over particular routes by a range of methods of greater and lesser legality (and the extent of of these local positions of market dominance is reflected in their business models and share price). But the basic point remains that the 'business' they bought and paid for could not legally include goodwill in respect of market dominance; and so there can be no legal basis for the companies to sue for compensation for loss of such goodwill in the event of a franchising scheme, so long as they remain free to compete for future franchise contracts.

You only have that right at the moment. What if that was changed by some legislation that wasn't included in a manifesto?

Note that Mr McDonnell isn't proposing finishing rail franchises early. He's also talking about renationalisation of various entities like Royal Mail but at a price decided on solely by parliament. Or how about Railtrack being nationalised on the cheap - seem to recall the shareholders sued for that and received compensation?

If we wish to move to a franchise model, and subject to the concerns I have outlined before (let's hope some high profile populist politician doesn't want some specialist bus design for the unique operating conditions in Manchester) then fine. However, to simply landgrab anyone's business (and that is the aim of the Buses Bill) seems wrong.

 

[Robertj21a]

You only have that right at the moment. What if that was changed by some legislation that wasn't included in a manifesto?

Note that Mr McDonnell isn't proposing finishing rail franchises early. He's also talking about renationalisation of various entities like Royal Mail but at a price decided on solely by parliament. Or how about Railtrack being nationalised on the cheap - seem to recall the shareholders sued for that and received compensation?

If we wish to move to a franchise model, and subject to the concerns I have outlined before (let's hope some high profile populist politician doesn't want some specialist bus design for the unique operating conditions in Manchester) then fine. However, to simply landgrab anyone's business (and that is the aim of the Buses Bill) seems wrong.

.....and as long as this 'high profile populist politician' doesn't call it 'The Mancunian'.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Regarding the new world of Greater Manchester (I've bored myself on the ownership and compo bit so lord knows what anyone else thinks ), there are doubtless some places where there is some duplication. However, the idea that this is somehow widespread is probably not the case - operators try to avoid overbussing corridors and we've been told that these operators have their own fiefdoms so competition is not the issue either!

I don't often concur with Ken Livingstone but at least he had the courage to introduce the congestion zone and use that to fund public transport improvements. That the arch populist Johnson then rowed back on half of it, and then reduced the rate of increase in the congestion charge, shows the lack of leadership of politicians in the modern age! GM politicians decided that they'd let the people decide - not surprisingly, people decided that they didn't want it Hence, whilst the sentiments of Andy Burnham are good, and it does feel like arguing against motherhood and apple pie, you wonder about the ability to fund all of it.

In terms of moving to cash free, I've seen the good and bad and yes, in Europe, it varies markedly. Striding purposely to some local tobacconist to get a ticket or carnet only to find that they've closed for some reason....I did get a free trip to Verona on that basis as the driver wouldn't take my cash I am a middle aged chap who is happy to embrace the smartphone revolution with m tickets. However, as always, there are tech savvy people and there are those who are not. Moving to cash free does make sense and with smartphone and contactless technology, should be more feasible.

Oh, and sorry to point this out but the comment "And none of it is anything new, if only the bus company managers would leave their little bubble and go and see how the rest of Europe does it and has for years." - I take it that you've don't know any bus company managers. Most of the ones I know or have met are not so closeted enthusiasts and they are passionate about buses. They are better travelled than a lot of people and they definitely know what it's like in Europe and indeed, across the world. What a ridiculous thing to say

 

[Dentonian]

.....and as long as this 'high profile populist politician' doesn't call it 'The Mancunian'.

Which no doubt London would hijack, just as they did with the original Mancunian 50 years ago. And to be absolutely fair, it probably should have been copyrighted as the Boltonian.
TBH, the only design stipulation over and above DDA that I would "demand" is adequately cushioned seating throughout - not just on 10 lower deck seats as with Stagecoach Enviro 400s. Mind you, that's ten more than First's e-plastic buses of the same type.

I'm just thinking; should there be a separate thread to raise viable alternatives to Franchising?

 

[radamfi]

Oh, and sorry to point this out but the comment "And none of it is anything new, if only the bus company managers would leave their little bubble and go and see how the rest of Europe does it and has for years." - I take it that you've don't know any bus company managers. Most of the ones I know or have met are not so closeted enthusiasts and they are passionate about buses. They are better travelled than a lot of people and they definitely know what it's like in Europe and indeed, across the world. What a ridiculous thing to say

So why are things done in Britain done the way they are? Some things done abroad require significant levels of funding, or certain kinds of regulation that mean they are currently impossible or difficult in Britain, at least outside London. But other things that would make a world of difference could easily have been implemented long ago.