Greater Anglia Smartcard

[loneranger]

Hi there,

Hoping someone might be able to provide an answer to a question regarding Greater Anglia's smartcard season tickets which doesn't seem to be among their FAQs and I've been unable to get an answer from ticketing staff. Perhaps I'm just not explaining it very clearly.

I want to get a season ticket from Chelmsford > Stratford loaded onto smartcard from paper ticket. Having 'touched in' the smartcard at Chelmsford, when I get to Stratford, I touch in on Oyster using one of the Oyster readers and get on the tube. This means that were I to have a Greater Anglia smartcard, I wouldn't be 'touching out' with it anywhere at Stratford since it's not required to do so to change from NR > tube. Obviously the same applies in reverse on the way home.

Would these scenarios cause problems with the smartcard in the same way they would if we were talking about Oyster and I was touching in but not out? In that case I'd expect Oyster to max fare me.

 

[Hadders]

To be frank, smartcards are best avoided at the moment. I'm not familiar with Greater Anglia's one but on my route (Great Northern) they offer less flexibility than the paper ticket but with no corresponding reduction in the price.

 

[Swimo]

It SHOULD let you touch out the smart card on the standalone readers.

 

[iphone76]

If I am understanding you correctly, this wouldn't matter at all. Effectively you are using your Chelmsford to Stratford season ticket to open the barriers at Chelmsford, and travel to Stratford, then you are touching in using an Oyster card at Stratford for your journey on the underground.

It would be like if you broke your journey at Ingatestone which doesn't have barriers or any other "touch" facilities.

Out of interest, is there any reason you couldn't get a Chelmsford to London Zone travelcard on the GA smart card so you don't even need to use an Oyster card? (And it may be cheaper)

 

[Wallsendmag]

To be frank, smartcards are best avoided at the moment. I'm not familiar with Greater Anglia's one but on my route (Great Northern) they offer less flexibility than the paper ticket but with no corresponding reduction in the price.

Why?


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[ictl]

For Greater Anglia smartcards, you only need to touch in/out at barriers. This applies to Greater Anglia smartcards only (Great Northern smart cards require you to touch in/out everytime. Unbarriered GN stations have smartcard validators. GA unbarriered stations outside of London don't have smartcard validators, so you can't touch in/out anyway!)

Having two smart cards (GA smartcard and oyster card) might be a bit of hassle as you have to make sure you touch in/out with the correct card when you're in London, so a paper ticket might be more suitable. You can put a travelcard on a GA smartcard (e.g. Chelmsford - Z3-6), but you won't be able to put any PAYG credit on it.

 

[Hadders]

Why?

- Lack of inter-availability between operators (VTEC and GTR for example)
- Confusion over switching from one ticket to another (as in this thread)
- Operator specific smartcards (why can't we just have a national version on which tickets from any TOC can be loaded?)
- If a Zones 1-6 outboundary travelcard season is held on a TOC smartcard then PAYG credit can't be added - causes confusion
- if a non-season ticket is held on a smartcard can it be excessed (eg.change of route, over distance etc.)
- Will a smartcard be accepted as part of a NRCoT 14 split (especially if not on the service of the issuing operator - eg. a Scotrail issued smartcard season between Glasgow and Edinburgh being used for a journey between Glasgow and Carlisle on a VTWC service combined with a paper ticket between Carstairs and Carlisle)

Generally I'm in favour of new technology however the cack-handed way smartcards have been implemented on the national rail network leaves a lot to be desired. I know not all this is the fault of the TOCs (DfT must take their share of the blame) but it really does need sorting out.

 

[Wallsendmag]

- Lack of inter-availability between operators (VTEC and GTR for example)
- Confusion over switching from one ticket to another (as in this thread)
- Operator specific smartcards (why can't we just have a national version on which tickets from any TOC can be loaded?)
- If a Zones 1-6 outboundary travelcard season is held on a TOC smartcard then PAYG credit can't be added - causes confusion
- if a non-season ticket is held on a smartcard can it be excessed (eg.change of route, over distance etc.)
- Will a smartcard be accepted as part of a NRCoT 14 split (especially if not on the service of the issuing operator - eg. a Scotrail issued smartcard season between Glasgow and Edinburgh being used for a journey between Glasgow and Carlisle on a VTWC service combined with a paper ticket between Carstairs and Carlisle)

Generally I'm in favour of new technology however the cack-handed way smartcards have been implemented on the national rail network leaves a lot to be desired. I know not all this is the fault of the TOCs (DfT must take their share of the blame) but it really does need sorting out.

Are you positive about your first point ?

 

[Hadders]

You might want to get GTR to update their website then!

https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/help-and-support/contact-us/faqs/the-key-smartcard

Can I use my Key Season ticket on Virgin Trains East Coast Services?

No. For travel between Stevenage and London, The Key is only valid on Great Northern services. Currently Virgin Trains East Coast are not able to accept The Key on their services.

 

[Wallsendmag]

You might want to get GTR to update their website then!

https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/help-and-support/contact-us/faqs/the-key-smartcard

Travelcards, Oyster cards, and other networks





Can I load Oyster pay as you go onto my Key?


No, Oyster pay as you go is not available on the Key.


Will The Key work in London?


Yes, as long as you load a Travelcard on to your Key outside London you’ll be able to travel to any London station within the Travelcard zone. You’ll be able to use it on London Underground, buses, trams, trains, and Docklands Light Railway (DLR).


Can The Key be used on Gatwick Express services?


Yes, you can use the Key on Gatwick Express services as long as you have a valid Gatwick Express ticket loaded on to it.


Can I use my Key Season ticket on Virgin Trains East Coast services?


Yes. If you have an Any Permitted season ticket between Stevenage and London, The Key will be accepted.


Can I use my Key season ticket on East Midlands Trains services?


Yes, if your season ticket is valid for the journey being made.


https://www.greatnorthernrail.com/help-and-support/contact-us/faq/the-key-smartcard

 

[mattdickinson]

Travelcards, Oyster cards, and other networks





Can I load Oyster pay as you go onto my Key?


No, Oyster pay as you go is not available on the Key.


Will The Key work in London?


Yes, as long as you load a Travelcard on to your Key outside London you’ll be able to travel to any London station within the Travelcard zone. You’ll be able to use it on London Underground, buses, trams, trains, and Docklands Light Railway (DLR).


Can The Key be used on Gatwick Express services?


Yes, you can use the Key on Gatwick Express services as long as you have a valid Gatwick Express ticket loaded on to it.


Can I use my Key Season ticket on Virgin Trains East Coast services?


Yes. If you have an Any Permitted season ticket between Stevenage and London, The Key will be accepted.


Can I use my Key season ticket on East Midlands Trains services?


Yes, if your season ticket is valid for the journey being made.


https://www.greatnorthernrail.com/help-and-support/contact-us/faq/the-key-smartcard

However Thameslink contradicts this...

Can I use my Key Season ticket on Virgin Trains East Coast services?
No. For travel between Stevenage and London, The Key is only valid on Great Northern services. Currently Virgin Trains East Coast are not able to accept The Key on their services.

 

[Hadders]

So it wasn't me going mad then Typical of GTR to contradict themselves though!

Whilst this VTEC announcement is welcome I wonder how someone with a Stevenage-Arlesey season ticket held on The Key and a paper Arlesey-Edinburgh ticket would be dealt with?

It should be valid, if the season was on paper there would be no doubt about validity. I suspect VTEC don't want it to be valid but it's important that rights and flexibility like this isn't eroded in the move to smart cards.

I'd be interested in Wallsendmag's thoughts...

 

[Wallsendmag]

I'll dig out the brief and let you know


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[Wallsendmag]

Where a passenger holds a season ticket to a station beyond Stevenage (eg London - Huntingdon) and wishes to extend their journey to Peterborough or beyond we should accept the smart card together with the extension ticket in the same way that we would with a paper season ticket.



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[TMD Tom]

In the case of GA Smart Card there is no requirement to record your journeys. If there is a closed barrier in your way, you can use your Smart Card to open it (obviously it has to be valid at that station). Otherwise you can enter and exit stations without tapping in or out. RPO's can scan the Smart Card to check the validity but won't be bothered about whether you tapped in before you started your journey.

 

[Hadders]

Where a passenger holds a season ticket to a station beyond Stevenage (eg London - Huntingdon) and wishes to extend their journey to Peterborough or beyond we should accept the smart card together with the extension ticket in the same way that we would with a paper season ticket.

Excellent news. Well done VTEC. Just need Hill Trains to accept it in similar circumstances on the handful of services that call at Stevenage.

Not VTEC related but my earlier comment about someone holding a Glasgow-Edinburgh season ticket on a Scotrail smart card is interesting if they want to make a one off journey to Carlisle. All that is needed is a ticket from Carstairs (far cheaper than a ticket from Glasgow) but I wonder what a VTWC or TPE guard would say when presented with a Scotrail smart card?

 

[Wallsendmag]

Excellent news. Well done VTEC. Just need Hill Trains to accept it in similar circumstances on the handful of services that call at Stevenage.



Not VTEC related but my earlier comment about someone holding a Glasgow-Edinburgh season ticket on a Scotrail smart card is interesting if they want to make a one off journey to Carlisle. All that is needed is a ticket from Carstairs (far cheaper than a ticket from Glasgow) but I wonder what a VTWC or TPE guard would say when presented with a Scotrail smart card?

Same as VTEC at the moment "sorry that's not valid". ScotRail have a different format for their smart cards but we're on the case


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[jon0844]

In the case of GA Smart Card there is no requirement to record your journeys. If there is a closed barrier in your way, you can use your Smart Card to open it (obviously it has to be valid at that station). Otherwise you can enter and exit stations without tapping in or out. RPO's can scan the Smart Card to check the validity but won't be bothered about whether you tapped in before you started your journey.

If GA plans to introduce automatic refunds it will have to change the 'rules'.

GTR might not punish season ticket holders that don't touch in or out either, but they've asked people to touch in and out, so now they're introducing this refund process it should work better.

 

[loneranger]

Thanks for the replies everyone, good to know I'll be able to use one then.

Now that it's been mentioned, the break-of-journey scenario at Ingatestone with no barriers would seem to be a pretty obivous logical indicator as to why it should work, though it didn't occur to me at the time!

Once in the Oyster system at Stratford I only go as far as Zone 2, so PAYG is still cheaper than a Travelcard in that respect.

Would I be right in assuming that if I wanted to go all the way into Liverpool Street of a weekend, then the Chelmsford<>Stratford smartcard season ticket + Stratford>Liverpool St paper single would suffice? (Or alternatively a dash to the Oyster reader on the platform at Stratford to try and touch in and get back on the train while it's stopped there )

 

[Hadders]

Same as VTEC at the moment "sorry that's not valid". ScotRail have a different format for their smart cards but we're on the case

This is an example of why there needs to be one smart card across all TOCs. I'm sure you'll get an agreement to accept each others smart cards only for there to be a change of franchise and the whole thing has to be done again!

The DfT likes to meddle in minutiae they don't need to get involved in then they go AWOL on a significant issue such as this...

 

[kieron]

Once in the Oyster system at Stratford I only go as far as Zone 2, so PAYG is still cheaper than a Travelcard in that respect.

Even a Travelcard to zone 2? I don't know your travel needs, of course, but the travelcards seem to be priced to give a small saving for anyone making 5 return journeys a week, apart from possibly someone travelling off-peak with a railcard discount.

Your season and a return from Stratford to London would be fine on a through train, even if the train doesn't stop in Stratford. Oyster would, of course, be a completely separate journey.