Greater Anglia Rolling Stock Updates

[James James]

Which brings me back to a question I asked months ago. Given the new units are articulated are the axle loads low enough for the DMU restriction to apply or are are they like the 185 where heavier axle loads mean lower restrictions might apply?

If you're asking about Flirt's: they tend to be built quite light, so they shouldn't have an issue. IIRC the engine has a bogie on either side, which should also help with axle loading.

An odd thing is the 745 being built as multiple 2-car modules, with 3 bogies per 2 cars (i.e. one articulation per 2-cars, instead of articulated throughout) - is that possibly motivated by axle loading, or is that just to make removing (or adding) sections easier? Don't think I've seen that for any Stadler units, with the exception of one non-articulated joint in the middle of the PKP IC Flirt.

 

[Class 317722]

Has anyone else noticed that the 317 refurbishment seems to be separate now. Instead of interior refurbish and exterior repaint being done together it seems to be being done separately now.

 

[AC47461]

You're right of course that it is more complicated than that, but equally, you can't just take the total number of vehicles because they're in fixed formation - 10 car sets can't be split up to any less than 10, 5-car sets can't be split up to any less than 5. The net increase in vehicles is all well and good but it doesn't necessarily allow for the same capacity increase across the board as the numbers suggest because you are confined to making the choice of whether to replace 8-car services with 5 or 10, and whether 10-car services replace solely 12-car services from today, or any 8-car services that are not appropriate to run with only 5 (which I imagine there will be many of, particularly on the WAML where 317s, as far as I know, don't work in 12-car formation).

I can't say for the GEML north of Shenfield but I understood Southend Vic services were eventually going to 4tph off peak, perhaps this will, in the eyes of GA, negate the need for 8 car trains off peak as we would effectively be getting the equivalent of 6 car trains (given the approx length of a 5 car 720) every 15 minutes, which would be 24 an hour (and the equivalent of 8 car every 20mins). If the hourly Romford stop goes too (which I've also heard) that might spread custom a little as that train is often far busier, both to Romford from Southend, and naturally from Romford to Liverpool St, and is rammed when it's only a 4 car unit.

None of this of course, bears any relation to what might happen in the peak, but surely the current 8 car trains to Southend Vic can't go to a single 5 car 720? As an example, the 1704 Liv St - Southend is 8 car and is always full and standing all the way to the front.

Guess we'll have to wait and see.....

 

[HainultLoop]

Has anyone else noticed that the 317 refurbishment seems to be separate now. Instead of interior refurbish and exterior repaint being done together it seems to be being done separately now.

I think almost all 317s have had the interior refurbishment anyway, perhaps except for a few of the ex-GN units. There certainly still seem to be a few 317s floating around with the Great Northern blue doors, however have been given GA moquette.

 

[samuelmorris]

When 4tph is in effect, yes. Towards the end of service, no. However, off-peak is unlikely to be much at risk of a unit shortage, so that should be no more an issue (probably less due to the uniform fleet) than today.

As for the 'surely it can't' points, that's exactly why people are calling out the relatively tight fit numbers, from old fleet vs. new. It's a valid concern.

 

[dp21]

Does anyone know if 321 401/403/418/420 leases ended last week as planned?

401 and 403 leave GA soon but are still there at the moment. 418 and 420 stick around for a while longer but will leave eventually.

 

[dk1]

Which brings me back to a question I asked months ago. Given the new units are articulated are the axle loads low enough for the DMU restriction to apply or are are they like the 185 where heavier axle loads mean lower restrictions might apply?

It's a bit of an unknown one to most. We where originally told not & that restrictions such as 45mph Lakenheath to Ely North Jcn will apply. Then it was said that they now have smaller fuel tanks which have thrown up all sorts of diagram issues. Who knows?

 

[F Great Eastern]

None of this of course, bears any relation to what might happen in the peak, but surely the current 8 car trains to Southend Vic can't go to a single 5 car 720? As an example, the 1704 Liv St - Southend is 8 car and is always full and standing all the way to the front.

Just to quote my post from several months ago

GA have been steering any conversation about overall capacity on said services to a conversation about seating. I explicitly asked them if the overall capacity of standees + seated passengers will be less in the than it is now, and again they would only mention seating increases and the benefits of seating over standing.

Previously they had no problem in saying that 4 car services will become 5 car and have a substantial increase in capacity, and the 12 car services that will become 10 car will have a substantial increase in capacity. But when you ask them about 8 car services, they no longer use the word capacity and use the word seating in its place.

From the figures I have seen a new 5 car 720 will have the same number of seats of an 8 car EMU, but substantially less standing.

 

[nxea321446]

401 and 403 leave GA soon but are still there at the moment. 418 and 420 stick around for a while longer but will leave eventually.

403 is still at Doncaster

 

[Wivenswold]

Just to quote my post from several months ago
From the figures I have seen a new 5 car 720 will have the same number of seats of an 8 car EMU, but substantially less standing.

It's a big concern and will have to be monitored, my attempts to get a straight answer from GA have been unsuccessful.

As mentioned on here a few times, the situation is further clouded by an increase in the off-peak service on the GEML as the additional third London to Norwich service will not be an extension of an existing London to Ipswich service. The increase in seats will be tangible but maybe not enough for those trying to wedge themselves into a packed 5 car unit at Stratford because their next train to Clacton isn't for another hour. If you get my drift.

 

[F Great Eastern]

It's a big concern and will have to be monitored, my attempts to get a straight answer from GA have been unsuccessful.

As mentioned on here a few times, the situation is further clouded by an increase in the off-peak service on the GEML as the additional third London to Norwich service will not be an extension of an existing London to Ipswich service. The increase in seats will be tangible but maybe not enough for those trying to wedge themselves into a packed 5 car unit at Stratford because their next train to Clacton isn't for another hour. If you get my drift.

Same problems unfortunately with GA - I gave up asking certain questions because they were constantly not answering them and instead answering a question I didn't ask.

Of course, replacing an 8 car EMU with a new 5 car EMU will result in a small number of extra seats, based on the figures what I have seen, but the overall capacity will be much reduced due to a loss of standing space and that is what worries me somewhat.

The current 8 car services are always going to be the biggest problem, since a 4 car EMU being replaced by a new 5 car is going to have a lot more capacity, and a 12 car EMU being replaced by a 10 car is going to have a lot more capacity as well - trouble is there is no middle ground on a 5/10 car railway.

As said before though, clever timetabling and station calls may reduce the impact.

 

[306024]

It's a bit of an unknown one to most. We where originally told not & that restrictions such as 45mph Lakenheath to Ely North Jcn will apply. Then it was said that they now have smaller fuel tanks which have thrown up all sorts of diagram issues. Who knows?

45 mph from Lakenheath to Ely will blow any timetabling aspirations regarding journey times. And yes the fuel range is indeed an issue. Pan up wherever possible, but that doesn’t help totally.

With regard to passenger capacity, clever timetabling can only go so far. Much of the travelling public seem to prefer to stand on a train that will get them there two minutes quicker rather than wait for an empty train behind.

As the revenue figures rely on passenger growth, you would like to think that any train formed of two units currently (where capacity requires it) was planned in the bid to be formed of two units, and hence more capacity, not less. However that is subject to the diagramming constraints of the total fleet size. Until you do a complete diagramming exercise you won’t know whether you can achieve that.

 

[LAX54]

45 mph from Lakenheath to Ely will blow any timetabling aspirations regarding journey times. And yes the fuel range is indeed an issue. Pan up wherever possible, but that doesn’t help totally.

With regard to passenger capacity, clever timetabling can only go so far. Much of the travelling public seem to prefer to stand on a train that will get them there two minutes quicker rather than wait for an empty train behind.

As the revenue figures rely on passenger growth, you would like to think that any train formed of two units currently (where capacity requires it) was planned in the bid to be formed of two units, and hence more capacity, not less. However that is subject to the diagramming constraints of the total fleet size. Until you do a complete diagramming exercise you won’t know whether you can achieve that.

Fuel for 600 miles I understand, all units to be fueled every night

 

[bonzawe]

Fuel for 600 miles I understand, all units to be fueled every night

3 coach or 4 coach, the 4 coach have an extra engine and presumably need more fuel. Is the fuel tank in the engine module or adjacent passenger vehicle? Logically the 3 car could have larger tanks without the weight of the additional engine?

 

[dk1]

3 coach or 4 coach, the 4 coach have an extra engine and presumably need more fuel. Is the fuel tank in the engine module or adjacent passenger vehicle? Logically the 3 car could have larger tanks without the weight of the additional engine?

All in the power pack. It can be removed at any time so the units can become simply an EMU.

 

[dk1]

Fuel for 600 miles I understand, all units to be fueled every night

Some will need to be done during the day we've been told due to depot constraints at night. Alternative fuelling locations will also be required.

 

[dk1]

As the revenue figures rely on passenger growth, you would like to think that any train formed of two units currently (where capacity requires it) was planned in the bid to be formed of two units, and hence more capacity, not less. However that is subject to the diagramming constraints of the total fleet size. Until you do a complete diagramming exercise you won’t know whether you can achieve that.

Is going to be a very interesting read & something I'm personally looking forward to. Only alteration to the initial press release I've heard is that the Sudbury branch will be self contained. It never was going to run through to Colchester.

 

[Wivenswold]

Not a bad thing, it would have needed two 755/3s and caused some serious congestion at Marks Tey junction. Now there's a unit free for cover and the good people on the Gainsborough Line will hopefully have a more comfortable, reliable service anyway.

 

[AlanFry1]

Updates on expected in-service dates of the new fleets, via Richard Clinnick at RAIL (source)

• March 2019: 5-car Class 720 EMU enter service on GEML.
• April 2019: 10-car Class 720 EMU enter service on WAML.
• "Late April" 2019: Stadler EMU enter service on GEML.
• May 2019: Stadler DEMU enter service, May 2019.
• By March 2020: all new fleets accepted.
• By end of August 2020: existing fleets withdrawn from service.

That's quite ambitious, IMHO, not just the timescale, but also the associated difficulty of introducing so many new trains in a very short space of time.

Potentially then, all new GA units could be up and running before LO?

 

[59CosG95]

Potentially then, all new GA units could be up and running before LO?

I can only attach this as a response.

A fine thing Indeed! I would add that the Danes should have had their IC4s by now...

 

[jamesontheroad]

Quick diversion to the thread, if you don’t mind.

In the mornings, I usually travel to London in Coach H of the GA mk 3 sets. I’ve noticed that there are slight differences in the configuration and design of the buffet counters. Is there a reason for this? When the first class + buffet cars were refurbished and flipped around to provide more standard class seating, were the different buffet designs the result of the carriages coming from different fleets?

Thanks!

 

[dk1]

Quick diversion to the thread, if you don’t mind.

In the mornings, I usually travel to London in Coach H of the GA mk 3 sets. I’ve noticed that there are slight differences in the configuration and design of the buffet counters. Is there a reason for this? When the first class + buffet cars were refurbished and flipped around to provide more standard class seating, were the different buffet designs the result of the carriages coming from different fleets?

Thanks!

Yes. NX converted some TSOs into small buffets then several years later GA did the same with the RFMs at the same time turning them & removing some of the kitchen & coverting to standard accommodation.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Having been on the rural lines a lot this week rather than the mainline due to work commitments, I have to say some of those refurbished 170s have terrible luggage rack and panel vibrations, was this the case before refurbishment or started after it?

Also what is the story with DMUs running around seemingly without a staff member on board aside from the driver? Twice this week I've been on trains where I haven't seen one - starting to think I'm a fool for not sitting in First Class on 170 202 tonight considering it has a carriage missing and one of the two that are there has a section dedicated to First!

 

[samuelmorris]

As far as I can recall they've been like that since new, 170s always had really bad rattles at certain engine speeds. I haven't ridden one for years, but in the days when they ran through the main part of the GEML I used them a bit.

 

[306024]

......Also what is the story with DMUs running around seemingly without a staff member on board aside from the driver? Twice this week I've been on trains where I haven't seen one - starting to think I'm a fool for not sitting in First Class on 170 202 tonight considering it has a carriage missing and one of the two that are there has a section dedicated to First!

No particular story. All GA DMUs in passenger service have a conductor apart from the odd working between Ipswich and Colchester which are DOO. Just because you didn't see one doesn’t mean they weren’t there. You’d be a bigger fool though if you didnt have a first class ticket and RPIs boarded the train.

 

[F Great Eastern]

No particular story. All GA DMUs in passenger service have a conductor apart from the odd working between Ipswich and Colchester which are DOO. Just because you didn't see one doesn’t mean they weren’t there. You’d be a bigger fool though if you didnt have a first class ticket and RPIs boarded the train.

The trouble is though with 170 202 with it's missing middle car it effectively becomes a 1.75 carriage train for standard class users because one of the cars has a first class section - I was on it from Cambridge to Ipswich tonight and there was no sign of a conductor, not a single announcement, with the PIS sound not working and no ticket check, which is quite strange.

Contrast that with every other trip apart from these two and I've had a staff member walk up and down the train after every stop or two and give manual announcements when the automatic ones don't function - if they were there it wasn't exactly obvious and clearly several people in my carriage were happy about not having to pay.

As far as I can recall they've been like that since new, 170s always had really bad rattles at certain engine speeds. I haven't ridden one for years, but in the days when they ran through the main part of the GEML I used them a bit.

There's one three car that I was on last week which was horrendously loud, I know they're not the best build quality wise and they rattle a bit, but the three car one I was on last Monday was deafening and one this week as well (presume it's the same one) even nowhere near top speed.

It's rare I'm on the branch lines, once a month or so if that, but all this week I've been working across the region to cover from sickness and it was really noticeable more than any other 170s I've been on.

 

[chubs]

I have to say some of those refurbished 170s have terrible luggage rack and panel vibrations, was this the case before refurbishment or started after it?

It was the case before refurbishment as well. But not since new - they were a lot better then (apart from doing intercity runs on the GEML). I'd hoped the refurbishment would fix the ratting as it drives you crazy.

I didn't even realise we still had first class on the branch lines?! I had assumed it was declassified on the 170's.

Is the errant centre car going to be reinserted soon, or is it long term broken?

 

[F Great Eastern]

It was the case before refurbishment as well. But not since new - they were a lot better then (apart from doing intercity runs on the GEML). I'd hoped the refurbishment would fix the ratting as it drives you crazy.

I never used them on Intercity runs so don't know what they were like then, I like the refurbishment, think the colour scheme and what they did was good, but the panel rattling and vibrating is very annoying, the worst one I was on, it was impossible to have a phone conversation it was so loud.

I didn't even realise we still had first class on the branch lines?! I had assumed it was declassified on the 170's.

It exists on Ipswich - Cambridge, Ipswich - Peterborough and on some Lowestoft service - don't know about the lines out of Norwich.

170202 just feels very packed at the moment, being short formed from 3 cars to 2 cars is bad enough, but when you consider that you're losing 20% or so of one carriage as well to First Class and factor in the disabled toilet and bike storage area and there's less space than a 156.

 

[Shunter_69]

I’m guessing the services you used and didn’t see anyone had stand in guards on them as they are just there to control the doors.

*** This is for information only and not to start another DOO debate ***

 

[Wivenswold]

I frequently used the 170s between Colchester and Chelmsford when they were introduced on the service to Basingstoke. I can clearly remember them rattling badly back then and they were less than a year old.