Greater Anglia Rolling Stock Updates

[hwl]

I can't believe we're still making new stock with 3+2 seating. The seats are way to small, often aren't all used because most adult passengers are too big, and take up space that passengers could use to stand. They take up space that would otherwise be gangways, so it takes longer for passengers to get on and off too.

Does this never get fed back when interior layouts are revealed or consulted upon?

Winning the bid meant providing lots of extra seats. The flip up seats in the vestibule are even worse for dwell time performance...

 

[306024]

I can't believe we're still making new stock with 3+2 seating. The seats are way to small, often aren't all used because most adult passengers are too big, and take up space that passengers could use to stand. They take up space that would otherwise be gangways, so it takes longer for passengers to get on and off too.

Does this never get fed back when interior layouts are revealed or consulted upon?

That's just your opinion, it isn't fact. I guess you don't travel on the Great Eastern Railway in the peak. Standing from Witham or Rayleigh every day would not be a nice option either.

 

[chris11256]

That's just your opinion, it isn't fact. I guess you don't travel on the Great Eastern Railway in the peak. Standing from Witham or Rayleigh every day would not be a nice option either.

Agreed. I'd rather sit in a middle seat than stand for 45 minutes/1 hour.

 

[AlanFry1]

What's going to happen to hackney downs? All platforms are way too short to accommodate the 10 car trains?

 

[Wivenswold]

That's just your opinion, it isn't fact. I guess you don't travel on the Great Eastern Railway in the peak. Standing from Witham or Rayleigh every day would not be a nice option either.

Spot on. The 3+2 might not be the height of luxury but these trains will swallow-up platforms of waiting passengers in the peaks. Off peak it's rare for all three seats to be occupied, so there's plenty of room to spread out usually.

Though the amount of homes being built up in East Anglia will mean that the day approaches when something drastic will have to happen to significantly capacity through Essex. Unless there's either housing market crash in London or the amount of city workers is reduced by remote working.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Will be interesting to see if these cantilevered seats start sagging over time.

 

[Wivenswold]

Will be interesting to see if these cantilevered seats start sagging over time.

I was thinking that too. Especially as some of the larger customers favour the gangway seats.

 

[class387]

I can't believe we're still making new stock with 3+2 seating. The seats are way to small, often aren't all used because most adult passengers are too big, and take up space that passengers could use to stand. They take up space that would otherwise be gangways, so it takes longer for passengers to get on and off too.

Does this never get fed back when interior layouts are revealed or consulted upon?

I agree that 3+2 is fundamentally a stupid idea, but sometimes you have to have it to provide the current seated capacity that is on the 317s, 321s and 360s. As proved with the introduction of 700s and 387s on TSGN routes, you will get a riot when you decrease the amount of seats.

I'm sure that people have complained about the seats, however there would be much more complaints if they find that they can't sit down anymore. This 3+2 layout seems to be quite good (as good as they can be anyway).

 

[hwl]

Will be interesting to see if these cantilevered seats start sagging over time.

Effectively a thin truss structure with an adjustable and damped lower mounting point...

 

[47421]

What's going to happen to hackney downs? All platforms are way too short to accommodate the 10 car trains?

Its a good question - over a year after the franchise was awarded to GA and the order for the new trains placed, there seems to be no information available on any contract with NR to extend any platforms on Lea Valley and rest of West Anglia, most of which are 8 car only. Seems strange to me, cannot imagine that a huge expansion of selective door opening is going to happen, but perhaps it is?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Effectively a thin truss structure with an adjustable and damped lower mounting point...

Was on a 700 this morning and they seemed pretty solid and the lower mounting point was pretty big and heavy, though the third seat of a 3 will put a lot more force on.

 

[87015]

Its a good question - over a year after the franchise was awarded to GA and the order for the new trains placed, there seems to be no information available on any contract with NR to extend any platforms on Lea Valley and rest of West Anglia, most of which are 8 car only. Seems strange to me, cannot imagine that a huge expansion of selective door opening is going to happen, but perhaps it is?

Combination of some extensions and a lot of SDO. Can't recall much of where was which but I think Seven Sisters is on for SDO which should be entertaining for dwell times.

 

[Alfie1014]

There has been a lot of opinions shared about the new seats on the Greater Anglia replacement rolling stock, so I'd thought I'd share mine. However my opinion is influenced by some facts and some experience.

I was lucky enough to visit the Bombardier factory last week as part of a stakeholder visit, to see the mock up of the interior of the new Adventra Class 720 being designed for Greater Anglia. I'm only going to discuss one aspect of the visit, my experience of the seats.

Firstly they are not the infamous Fainsa seat used in the Class 700, but a different model. I sat in them for around 45 minutes during the visit, which I think is a fairly average time for a GA commuter (comparable to WTM-LST or RLG-LST) with many sitting less and a few for a longer period. My impression was that they were firm, but not uncomfortable. Of course they have the high seat backs of the modern seat and they are much more upright that the seats in the class 321's, which I find fairly uncomfortable to sit in because of their low cushion height and ridiculous seat back angle. I had travelled the first part of the way to Derby in a 360, so it was interesting to compare the experience. They were quite similar but I would say the new seats were firmer, although they may be because they are new and hadn't had tens of thousands of bottoms on them like the one in the 360!

While I was there I deliberately asked to sit in the 'worst' seats in the mock up, e.g the ones with the most restrictive leg room. These are 2 airline seats, which typically are the last ones in the carriage at the end. They make up about 2% of the seats of a class 720/5 (5 car unit) or in real numbers there are 5 pairs or ten seats in the unit. Every other seat has more leg room and the priority seat pair nearest the doors have much more leg room than most.

Here is a picture of my legs when stretched out in these seats:

View attachment 33652

As you see, the cantilevered seat support in front stops me stretching out too far, but for someone with a dodgy knee like me, there was reasonable room to stretch out. Seat pitch for these worst seats is 30" in airline measurements.

Here is a picture of the legs of a 6' 2" Bombardier Engineer sitting in the same seat, which he kindly did so I could get a better angled picture

View attachment 33653

So generally I think most people will be fairly comfortable, even in these worst airline seats. Note the seat back tables, they will have a novel set of grooves in them so people can stand up iPads and phones on them without slipping, powered either by the 3 Pin plug or the 2 x USB sockets which are situated between each pair of seats.

Finally, just to prove I'm not a cheerleader for GA, here is a picture of the daft 3 x Airline seats, which they have shoehorned in to meet the DfT target number of seats. Thankfully there will be only 4 sets of these in a 720/5 and 7 in a 720/1 10-car.

View attachment 33654

I doubt they will see 3 people in them very often, unless you have a family or 3 friends travelling off peak. I expect the middle one to be usually empty in the peaks.

Thanks for sharing these, it's good at last to start seeing some detail. I posted that the seats were to be FAINSA only after reading this in the trade press. So who are producing these seats I wonder? Have you any pics of the face to face seating and was there any mention of the reconsideration of now providing first class on these units which again the trade press is reporting?

 

[fat_boy_pete]

I question if I may, was the trunking cover on the floor by the wall intrusive at all? It certainly looks much smaller than the floor-mounted heaters on the 321s/360s.

Is that carpet on the floor? I'm quite impressed, looks like a quality interior.

As mentioned elsewhere, the design of how the cable trunking at the sides and the cantilever seat support will be covered is still awaiting a final design. The objective is to minimise on the Passenger space though.

Yes it is carpet, but the design isn't the final one. The seat moquette is the final one though. I hope they keep the leather effect headrests as they look very good.

 

[fat_boy_pete]

Thanks for sharing these, it's good at last to start seeing some detail. I posted that the seats were to be FAINSA only after reading this in the trade press. So who are producing these seats I wonder? Have you any pics of the face to face seating and was there any mention of the reconsideration of now providing first class on these units which again the trade press is reporting?

They may well be FAINSA manufacture, but explicitly not the model used in the 700. Re First Class, not a chance. It's a DfT specification now to get rid of First class on all new suburban stock. The aim is to maximise the numbers of (potential) bums on seats, hence 3/2 layout and the daft 3 x airline seats where they have some spare space. At least they are reconsidering the fold down seats in the vestibules for 'perch' seats instead to minimise the blocking of admittedly wider double doors that on the 321.

 

[jamesontheroad]

Would someone be kind enough to point me in the direction of any published information on the individual carriage and total unit lengths of the three and four carriage bi-mode Stadler Flirts (class 755)? Many thanks!

 

[Jamesrob637]

There was an Ilford to Doncaster movement today if that's of any relevance to Anglia?

 

[F Great Eastern]

Almost certainly a 321.

 

[Wivenswold]

T'was 321306 heading up to have its soul removed.

 

[jopsuk]

Would someone be kind enough to point me in the direction of any published information on the individual carriage and total unit lengths of the three and four carriage bi-mode Stadler Flirts (class 755)? Many thanks!

I don't believe any such information has been published yet

 

[eastdyke]

Would someone be kind enough to point me in the direction of any published information on the individual carriage and total unit lengths of the three and four carriage bi-mode Stadler Flirts (class 755)? Many thanks!

Martin222002 kindly posted some data sheets here (the thumbnails). Total unit lengths are included but not lengths for the individual carriages.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=3027536#post3027536

 

[jamesontheroad]

I don't believe any such information has been published yet

Martin222002 kindly posted some data sheets here (the thumbnails). Total unit lengths are included but not lengths for the individual carriages.

Thanks both.

 

[Wivenswold]

Thought I'd put this in the proper thread, Ginger has been to see the GA Aventra mock up.



https://www.facebook.com/groups/394007637356031/

 

[Bletchleyite]

For 3+2 they actually look quite reasonable, though the floor level conduit is so large it takes up almost all the window seat's legroom. Has nobody come up with a better solution for heating yet? But at least make it square so we can put our feet on it if the floor isn't big enough.

 

[Pumbaa]

What happened to the much vaunted under floor heating to remove the use of side ducts?

 

[Martin222002]

What happened to the much vaunted under floor heating to remove the use of side ducts?

Having read the comments it appears that it has been quietly dropped (or at least for now), but it sounds like the usergroups are pushing for a better solution.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Having read the comments it appears that it has been quietly dropped (or at least for now), but it sounds like the usergroups are pushing for a better solution.

Even a flat top would be better than a sloping top, that way you can put your foot on it in the window seat. But the Pendolino manages a very narrow conduit that really doesn't get in the way barring cooking your ankles - can't they make it a bit smaller?

 

[Wivenswold]

I agree, a flat top would be of far more use. I understand they're going back to the drawing board on that. I'm pretty sure the underfloor heating is still there.

 

[urpert]

The seats and colours remind me of recent SNCB refurbishments:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a5/IMG_5958_NMBS_M5_modernisiert.jpg

 

[F Great Eastern]

The legroom in the banks of six seats facing each other looks tighter than the 321/360s they are replacing, is that the case?