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Greater Anglia Rolling Stock Updates

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Bletchleyite

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That second image, if the train is involved in an accident, it's going to threaten a lot of legs surely?

Doubt it, if anything the knees being right next to the seat will *reduce* damage as the passenger won't fly forwards.

in the second row of that image there's not space to get in and out of the seats.

It's not a well-drawn image, as it assumes peoples' upper leg is the length of the seat base, which it *very* rarely is. The pitch won't be *that* tight as, as you say, you wouldn't be able to get in.
 
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F Great Eastern

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The thing is the mock-up images of the FLIRTs make it impossible to judge leg-room on airline seats because the only images that we are given are ones that are in front of or behind doors or around a table and those seats in most trains always have more room because of their position.

If we had a side on photo in the middle of a carriage away from the door around other airline seats it would be easier to job but we don't so we can't do that right now, the question is have Abellio picked the shots they have because they're high density and it looks better to not show them to prevent bad press?
 

Martin222002

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The one thing that puzzles me about your comments regarding the FISA LEAN seat F Great Eastern, is that it was the LEAN which was reported to have been the winning seat in the Northern new seat poll last summer and by a big margin. Ian Walmsley, who always has plenty to say about train seats, if I'm remembering right also said the LEAN was the most expensive of the three.

Here's a good comparison of the three taken from Northern's Facebook page. The LEAN being the one on the left, the Finsa seat as on the 387s, 700s & etc in the middle, and the Finsa seat in standard class on the 800s & first class on the 700s on the right. Apologies for the large size! :oops:

https://scontent.fbhx2-1.fna.fbcdn....=b0964419aca50ad245182b92ecd767c4&oe=598BD089

While it's obviously hard to judge from a photo on it's own, I would say factoring in the indent on the LEAN padding looks about the same on all free there. However the LEAN does appear to be less upright than the two Finsa seats.

Of cause if GA does choose to go with a high density seating layout with limited leg room then that will be an obvious issue. But as others have said before the franchise was awarded one of the things people were asking for was 'more seats'. So GA would only will be doing what it's passengers are asking for.
 
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Bletchleyite

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So GA would only will be doing what it's passengers are asking for.

If you're a politician, yes. I suspect they want "more seats" to be achieved by way of longer trains or more frequent trains, not cramming them in.

I'm very disappointed that the GWR high-backed seat is not featuring...but I do know it's a bit Marmite!
 

F Great Eastern

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Padding on the LEAN is less, the padding is literally the dark blue cushion that you can see with very little else, the whole of the blue plastic area is not padding, it's where the knees for the person behind go .

I've sat on a LEAN on an actual train on a journey and they are fine as a short hop regional seat but long distance they are not, of course GA can help with this somewhat by increasing the padding, but if they are going to be high density, and you'd think they've picked this seat for that reason, anything they gain they will lose or have to have them even tighter.

I'm not sure who told you they were an expensive seat, maybe they were compared to the spec of other seats and the types of other seat that Northern were shortlisting because at first glance all the seats in the comparison don't look like they were chosen for padding or quality, but they are a good bit cheaper than the FGW HST seats and other common seats on UK Rail for instance - and that is info supplied to me by someone who was involved in the procurement of trains where both were an option.
 
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AlanFry1

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Will platforms at seven sisters, hackney, Edmonton, white hart lane etc be extended?
 

Alfie1014

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The suitability of seats will only be resolved once users get a chance to see either representative mock ups or the real thing. But with the new trains arriving in less than 2 years time the clock is ticking, the perception seems to be in some quarters that the lack of widespread engagement is simply a device to keep some of the unpalatable truths out of the public eye for as long as possible.

The wider issue of overcrowding is an interesting one; the perception is that more seats are required, but GA has one of the lowest PIXC figures for all London TOCs (the overall figures for Liverpool St are inflated by TfL Rail which is quoted at 11% in the morning peak and 7% in the evening), where as GA is shown in the DfTs latest figures (2015-16) as only 3% in the morning and 1% in the evening.

My experience is that both the GE and WA main lines suffer from lower levels of overcrowding than other routes around London when services are running to time. But I do wonder if the perception of how busy services are is skewed by the unreilability of NR's infrastructure resulting in frequent disruption and cancellations and short forming, the later especially so during leaf fall.

Now I admit that the franchise is predicated on both central London employment and housing in the region increasing over time, whether this turns out to be case only time will tell.
 

dk1

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The wider issue of overcrowding is an interesting one; the perception is that more seats are required, but GA has one of the lowest PIXC figures for all London TOCs (the overall figures for Liverpool St are inflated by TfL Rail which is quoted at 11% in the morning peak and 7% in the evening), where as GA is shown in the DfTs latest figures (2015-16) as only 3% in the morning and 1% in the evening.

My experience is that both the GE and WA main lines suffer from lower levels of overcrowding than other routes around London when services are running to time. But I do wonder if the perception of how busy services are is skewed by the unreilability of NR's infrastructure resulting in frequent disruption and cancellations and short forming, the later especially so during leaf fall.

Now I admit that the franchise is predicated on both central London employment and housing in the region increasing over time, whether this turns out to be case only time will tell.

Could this have a lot to do with the extra rolling stock & additional 12-car formations which where introduced between NX/DfT? Some peak INTERCITY services are starting to struggle with trains such as the 05:30 ex-Norwich which had spare capacity now F&S on a daily basis.
 

samuelmorris

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That's exactly my experience too - I use c2c in the AM peak and very occasionally in the PM peak, I use GA services to Shenfield in the PM peak, so usually Southend Victoria services, but also use TfL rail.

The crowding on TfL rail is horrific even under normal circumstances, every train is full to capacity and leaving passengers behind at Stratford for the entirety of the peak period. C2C at West Ham is almost as bad, though only Rainham services tend to suffer leaving people behind due to the use of 4-car train length.

GA services are far less crowded during normal operation, there are usually no more than 10-15 people standing per carriage. The figures are skewed because disruption is far more common on GA, and crowding on TfL Rail is so bad.

It would surprise me if that many people had genuinely switched to GA from c2c, if they had I would have noticed a marked increase and decrease in load respectively, which I haven't. GA is much more expensive, considerably less punctual and despite the less crowded trains is still busy and uses far less comfortable rolling stock, especially in the summer. Using c2c is still a no brainer as far as I'm concerned. Things may begin to change a little once the Aventras take over but by the sound of things they aren't going to be very comfortable either! I'll wait and see, the seats in the likes of 387s and 700s don't bother me as far as padding (or lack thereof) is concerned but the inadequate legroom is a problem. I wouldn't like to see that replicated on GA stock, not when there's no longer the excuse of the DfT's questionable competence to hold things back.
 

F Great Eastern

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AS someone who commute for a long while going back to the 312s before the 360s came in, the 360s were a breath of fresh air for the region and excellent trains, I think we all agree that the 321s are tired trains in their current state and need replacing and the 317s even more so, but my whole issue with this situation is that I expected newer generations to offer higher levels of comfort and from everything that i have seen so far that isn't going to be the case. I would have rather stuck with hand me downs with better levels of comfort than new trains that cram them all in.

Abellio generally have done very well in the stock they have refurbished and the 321 refurb and the MK3 refurb was much better than anything that was suggested or attempted by National Express, having had to sit through 8 years of badly looked after trains under NXEA, finally when GA have increased the comfort levels that have plagued a lot of stock under NXEA, it seems a bit of a cheat, that only after a couple of years we're going to go backwards when it comes to comfort levels after having it so bad for so long.

Personally the fact stuff was so badly done by NXEA is why I and a few other people are frustrated by this pack them in mentality and lack of comfort, we've had rolling stock that should be comfortable after a refurb, left unloved for the best part of a decade, when that rolling stock finally is given some TLC and modern treatment, it's going to be taken away from us not long after in favour of stock which will offer far less in the way of comfort, now part of that is not GA fault because they were not NX, but the franchise has suffered from half measures a lot since 2004 and it's a huge disappointment that such a potential change to transform travel in the region, won't give us the same levels of comfort that other franchises have got.

It just feels like one step forward under AGA after standing still under NXEA and then two steps back on the new GA franchisein some respects, as a passenger where are very little issues with overcrowding, the thought of losing my comfortable 12 car Desiro in exchange for a 10 car new unit that packs a couple of hundred if not more seats in, doesn't fill me with joy, I'm all for new trains and adding more seats if there is demand or future demand for them, but my problem with this is that I have a car, and I abandoned using NXEA because they were awful and if they take comfort for granted I can easily go back there again.

The problem with this rolling stock strategy if you had a slider between comfort on the left and capacity on the right they've slid it right to the right hand side, and whereas for sure they need additional capacity to grow, they've pushed it too far that way.
 

ginger

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Very interesting chat.........agree with FGE! But the first "stakeholder board" meeting held a few weeks ago.......

The ERUF (who had a representative there) are meeting on Tuesday night to discuss this and plan a formal response (amongst other things).

What would you guys like raised with A) GA, B) hellbellio, C) Notwork Fail?

And before I get a bucket load of rubbish, like FGE I have had enough of basic ineptitude on a daily basis.......yes I get the whole thing and understand the history going back 35 years but FGE is right....

We have all campaigned for years in one way or another, to get this - BUT it needs to be right!

Funny that I posted a few years ago about this and got shot down in flames and here we are.........the MPs, Rail Users, Councillors etc etc were fantastic - and even the rabble rouser / table thumpers!!!!

Lets move it on.........would love suggestions to raise - FGE thanks for the details on the seat options! Can you give us a concise list we can confront hellbellio with please!
 

F Great Eastern

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Actually Ginger, I'm not quite so anti Abellio of you, I think they rather did a good job with the last franchise after taking over from the shower of crap that was National Express East Anglia, I just don't agree with what they are doing with the current rolling stock order at all on so many levels, not just the spec of it, but how ambitious it is and how it's all being done at once which is surely a recipe for disaster.

I agree we need new rolling stock and it's about time this region had some after the hand me downs and lack of new orders over the years, but I'd rather see less new trains to a better comfort level and keep some of the comfortable ones we already have, than replacing everything which will involve replacing a batch of trains that are only mid-life that are more comfortable than the new ones that are coming in.

It's obvious that it's time to go for the MK3S/153/156/317 trains to go, they are tired and very old and too short for the franchise or a mixture of the three. No problem at all replacing them. I'd also have no problem replacing the 321s in their current non refurbished state either because they are also tired and do not offer the levels of comfort that you would come to expect. The 170s, especially the two car ones, have to go due to capacity reasons.

My main issue is replacing the 360s which don't need to be replaced and are still well built and well bolted down units that never let down with vastly inferior, cramped trains I don't see the point of refurbishing 321s to such a high standard and then putting them out to pasture, it is totally illogical and then for the 379s, sure they may be expensive to lease but at the end of the day as far as I'm aware Abellio isn't supposed to be a "Budget Train Operator" as far as I am concerned.

The issue about replacing the 360/379 and well refurbished 321s is not just some hazy eyed love of these units, it is the fact that the new units that are going to replace these on commuter runs are going to be vastly less comfortable, with a large amount of more seats in similar train lengths, and less leg-room, with far more inferior seats, I'm all for new trains and modern rolling stock but not at the expense of the basics of providing a comfortable journey.

The simple fact is that if they replaced less trains, they'd be able to spend more money on the interiors, which the seating is based on shopping in the bargain basement aisle, they have specified a laughable number of extra seats in commuter stock which has to be squashed in since there is no other way the maths work, and the most high density seat and thinnest least padded seat on the market for the other trains, the LEAN is not a long distance seat, it's a regional seat but it's cheap so that all that matters.

Nobody expects Pullman like luxury from Abellio, but they do deserve basic comfort.
 
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ginger

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Actually Ginger, I'm not quite so anti Abellio of you, I think they rather did a good job with the last franchise after taking over from the shower of crap that was National Express East Anglia, I just don't agree with what they are doing with the current rolling stock order at all on so many levels, not just the spec of it, but how ambitious it is and how it's all being done at once which is surely a recipe for disaster.

I agree we need new rolling stock and it's about time this region had some after the hand me downs and lack of new orders over the years, but I'd rather see less new trains to a better comfort level and keep some of the comfortable ones we already have, than replacing everything which will involve replacing a batch of trains that are only mid-life that are more comfortable than the new ones that are coming in.

It's obvious that it's time to go for the MK3S/153/156/317 trains to go, they are tired and very old and too short for the franchise or a mixture of the three. No problem at all replacing them. I'd also have no problem replacing the 321s in their current non refurbished state either because they are also tired and do not offer the levels of comfort that you would come to expect. The 170s, especially the two car ones, have to go due to capacity reasons.

My main issue is replacing the 360s which don't need to be replaced and are still well built and well bolted down units that never let down with vastly inferior, cramped trains I don't see the point of refurbishing 321s to such a high standard and then putting them out to pasture, it is totally illogical and then for the 379s, sure they may be expensive to lease but at the end of the day as far as I'm aware Abellio isn't supposed to be a "Budget Train Operator" as far as I am concerned.

The issue about replacing the 360/379 and well refurbished 321s is not just some hazy eyed love of these units, it is the fact that the new units that are going to replace these on commuter runs are going to be vastly less comfortable, with a large amount of more seats in similar train lengths, and less leg-room, with far more inferior seats, I'm all for new trains and modern rolling stock but not at the expense of the basics of providing a comfortable journey.

The simple fact is that if they replaced less trains, they'd be able to spend more money on the interiors, which the seating is based on shopping in the bargain basement aisle, they have specified a laughable number of extra seats in commuter stock which has to be squashed in since there is no other way the maths work, and the most high density seat and thinnest least padded seat on the market for the other trains, the LEAN is not a long distance seat, it's a regional seat but it's cheap so that all that matters.

Nobody expects Pullman like luxury from Abellio, but they do deserve basic comfort.

Do you want to join us on Tuesday night? We are all in agreement........its on your way home!
 

samuelmorris

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I think I concur with the sentiment of that post (#222). Abellio seem to have put a bit more effort into their operation since gaining the full-length franchise. They're still a little backwards compared to some TOCs when it comes to delay repay and the likes but they are improving. This rolling stock order is really the opportunity to put right the biggest wrong with the GA franchise that the TOC actually have any control over. The past few months have placed the punctuality ball back in Network Rail's court. The rolling stock may be end of life in a lot of cases but it is nonetheless cleaner now despite a few incidents, and unit faults do seem to have dropped somewhat since the big pledges about extra staff.

Nonetheless, the Renatus programme is now in my mind no longer fit for purpose and I do agree that the new rolling stock order raises some serious questions. I would argue that now AGA have been awarded the franchise, unless a new owner for both the 360/1s and 379s is identified, the quantity of new units on order should be reviewed.
I am also unhappy about the small quantity of the purpose-built StanEx and Norwich units compared to the number of Aventras and Regional units, nor that they are not seemingly interchangeable.

Lack of First Class will have support on both sides of the argument so that's less an issue, though I do think it may have been wise to sub-class the unit to include standard-class only for the likes of Southend and Braintree, and units with a small first class provision for Ipswich, Clacton and Cambridge. I can't really comment on the seating issue, I haven't tried all the seats in question, 3+2 is not nice, but 2+2 would definitely increase the PIXC figures substantially, which is the opposite of what the new stock order is supposed to achieve. Abellio are between a rock and a hard place on that one.
 

Wivenswold

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Very interesting chat.........agree with FGE! But the first "stakeholder board" meeting held a few weeks ago.......

The ERUF (who had a representative there) are meeting on Tuesday night to discuss this and plan a formal response (amongst other things).

What would you guys like raised with A) GA, B) hellbellio, C) Notwork Fail?

And before I get a bucket load of rubbish, like FGE I have had enough of basic ineptitude on a daily basis.......yes I get the whole thing and understand the history going back 35 years but FGE is right....

We have all campaigned for years in one way or another, to get this - BUT it needs to be right!

Funny that I posted a few years ago about this and got shot down in flames and here we are.........the MPs, Rail Users, Councillors etc etc were fantastic - and even the rabble rouser / table thumpers!!!!

Lets move it on.........would love suggestions to raise - FGE thanks for the details on the seat options! Can you give us a concise list we can confront hellbellio with please!

Hi Ginger. I've raised these already but worth another mention.
1) Toilets, we are getting them on the Aventras yes?
2) Quiet zones, without first class, there will have to be a haven of calm on the train, in my opinion.
3) Off-peak and weekends are a worry, 5 cars, no matter how dense the seating is, will not be enough. 8 cars at the moment can be bad if there are enough events going on in London, or delays.
4) When will they release the final seating plans to the public?
 

47802

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Nonetheless, the Renatus programme is now in my mind no longer fit for purpose and I do agree that the new rolling stock order raises some serious questions. I would argue that now AGA have been awarded the franchise, unless a new owner for both the 360/1s and 379s is identified, the quantity of new units on order should be reviewed.
I am also unhappy about the small quantity of the purpose-built StanEx and Norwich units compared to the number of Aventras and Regional units, nor that they are not seemingly interchangeable.

.

Why should it be reviewed Abeillo made their bid on their chosen rolling stock options, keeping some older rolling stock will completely change their costings, and its of little concern to them what happens to the surplus rolling stock once the lease finishes and they are returned to the rolling stock leasing company.
 

Bornin1980s

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Regarding the seats, the Modern Railways report stated that the FISA seat in the Northern survey had better than standard paddling. Maybe it was the LEAN Comfort model. I notice from the photos that the seats were widely spread out in the road show, giving customers no experience of the crucial legroom factor. A seat with greater pitch could easily win on its own, but it would demand more legroom.

I still can't find anything about the actual Northern decision, after the survey result. I should confess now that my interest in Anglia is academic. I'm really northern.
 

cmovcc

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This rolling stock order is really the opportunity to put right the biggest wrong with the GA franchise that the TOC actually have any control over.

sadly it's all specified in the franchise agreement they've signed, including the seat layout for each route and the number of seats per unit

to be honest I'd rather keep the 317/6s that are quite literally falling apart than put up with locked knees 3+2 seating for over an hour each way
 

chubs

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I just see comments like that & it makes me cringe. I could never take you seriously now.

Exactly. Whilst I may have some concerns about what's happening (Although i'm nowhere near as hysterical as FGE) I don't want somebody using such immature names representing my views.
 

Bletchleyite

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The only thing I don't get is why separate layouts for Stansted Express and IC were chosen. I'd have kept them the same and offered good deals on 1st on the Express.
 

321over360

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AS someone who commute for a long while going back to the 312s before the 360s came in, the 360s were a breath of fresh air for the region and excellent trains, I think we all agree that the 321s are tired trains in their current state and need replacing and the 317s even more so, but my whole issue with this situation is that I expected newer generations to offer higher levels of comfort and from everything that i have seen so far that isn't going to be the case. I would have rather stuck with hand me downs with better levels of comfort than new trains that cram them all in.

Abellio generally have done very well in the stock they have refurbished and the 321 refurb and the MK3 refurb was much better than anything that was suggested or attempted by National Express, having had to sit through 8 years of badly looked after trains under NXEA, finally when GA have increased the comfort levels that have plagued a lot of stock under NXEA, it seems a bit of a cheat, that only after a couple of years we're going to go backwards when it comes to comfort levels after having it so bad for so long.

Personally the fact stuff was so badly done by NXEA is why I and a few other people are frustrated by this pack them in mentality and lack of comfort, we've had rolling stock that should be comfortable after a refurb, left unloved for the best part of a decade, when that rolling stock finally is given some TLC and modern treatment, it's going to be taken away from us not long after in favour of stock which will offer far less in the way of comfort, now part of that is not GA fault because they were not NX, but the franchise has suffered from half measures a lot since 2004 and it's a huge disappointment that such a potential change to transform travel in the region, won't give us the same levels of comfort that other franchises have got.

It just feels like one step forward under AGA after standing still under NXEA and then two steps back on the new GA franchisein some respects, as a passenger where are very little issues with overcrowding, the thought of losing my comfortable 12 car Desiro in exchange for a 10 car new unit that packs a couple of hundred if not more seats in, doesn't fill me with joy, I'm all for new trains and adding more seats if there is demand or future demand for them, but my problem with this is that I have a car, and I abandoned using NXEA because they were awful and if they take comfort for granted I can easily go back there again.

The problem with this rolling stock strategy if you had a slider between comfort on the left and capacity on the right they've slid it right to the right hand side, and whereas for sure they need additional capacity to grow, they've pushed it too far that way.

The 312s were much nicer trains than the 360s are, for one they had the nice comfy seats. Also ive always found that the seats aboard a 321 offered much more comfort than a 360 did, though Abellio did reduce this slightly during the seat cover changes as the Ex FGE green seats always seemed much firmer than the Abellio grey.

With regards to NXEA, dont forget it was down to that franchise that the 379s were introduced, yes NXEA didnt do a major overhaul of the MK3s but let face it, AGAs refurbishment wasnt exactly done very well either, as there are now fewer toilets aboard the MK3s, there are power sockets but they dont always work, the seat covers are now very rough compared to the much comfier blue chicken drumstick seat covers that NXEA had on them, the WIFI is actually less reliable than it used to be when NXEA brought it into use. Though train refurbishments waiting until the AGA franchise cant be blamed on NXEA, they had a minor refresh when NXEA brought them in from the WCML, but they were told what they had to do with the franchise by the DFT, if anyone wants to blame anyone for the lack of investment during the NXEA franchise then blame the DFT, they set the rules for the franchise and the TOC goes by what they have been told to do by the DFT. IT like all rail franchises in the UK, if the DFT says work with what rolling stock you have then that is all you can do even though NXEA wanted more trains which they got from cascaded 321s and then the 379s. Franchises suffer poor capacity as the DFT doesnt allow TOCs to get new stock, the Southeastern franchise is another victim of the DFT not allowing any new rolling stock which Southeastern has been crying out to the DFT for ages to be granted but the DFT says NO.

With regards to the new rolling stock, i will be sad to see the workhorse Class 321s go as they have a nice charm about them in their current state, might be the body design plus those awesome sounding motors as they houl along at high speeds and the nice accelerating sound compared to the horrid 360s with hard seats and poor airconditioning. I know they were poor as had previously done journeys in summer starting on a c2c to West Ham from Barking with a nice cool train carriage then transfer via tube to Stratford then ended up on a 360 where it didnt feel as pleasant as the 357 train.

Let just hope the rural fleet will be good, the 156s do not have the capacity that they need especially on the Wherry Line routes in summer as they cannot cope with the loadings between Norwich and Great Yarmouth, even worse when AGA have decided to use a 153 on its own or when a previous service has been cancelled and you now have 2 trains worth of passengers aboard a 2 car train, this partly down to AGAs poor train planning, with the LST to NRW FLIRTS, all i hope is for the 2 hour journey from LST to NRW that the seats do have padding but easy to get into unlike the horrid seats on the MK3s in standard class.

NXEA werent any worse than AGA were, alot of their delays were mostly down to infrastructure failures such as trackside and OHLE equipment failures but when AGA took over the service got even worse than it had been under NXEA, trains were always late and became dirtier and i actually missed NXEA as when there was disruption they were better at recovering the service, yes this included running services fast still stopping at crucial stations but AGA never seemed truly able to implement a good service recovery plan.

Finally, you can never get every customer to like every new bit of rolling stock that is introduced, someone will always criticize the TOCs choices but as others have said, passengers wanted more capacity on the train so GA are doing that, look at the 376s on SE, people complain about the lack of toilets onboard those trains yet it was the commuters during the consultation in the Connex/State owned Southeastern Trains period who said they wanted more space on the train at the expense of having a toilet aboard the train so that what they were given, toiletless Metro trains, in some ways GA throwing the look of the train out to the passengers may in some ways not always be a sensible idea as history can repeat itself and then a few years down the line new commuters or passenger will be like why is this train like this or why doesnt it have this.
 

swt_passenger

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... I would argue that now AGA have been awarded the franchise, unless a new owner for both the 360/1s and 379s is identified, the quantity of new units on order should be reviewed.
That suggests something of a misunderstanding of what the franchise agreement is.

It is DfT's legal statement of exactly what is going to happen, and when, it is way beyond a consultation or a proposal.
 

dk1

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Rumours are abound that the bi-mode fleet may initially be based at Lowestoft or Great Yarmouth for storage & training purposes. The latter seems to be preferred with the carriage sidings coming back into full use with added fencing/security.
 

Class 170101

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Frankly wouldn't surprise me as there is a lot of stabling in Ipswich and Norwich Stations overnight suggesting existing depot and carriage siding space is fully utilised.
 
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