Hi, I was given a penalty fare for a journey I took from Tottenham Hale to Stansted Aiport. I had purchased a valid ticket for the train and had purchased a new railcard that morning. I showed the ticket inspector my ticket and railcard but she said the railcard was not valid. I showed her my railcard had expired recently (a couple of weeks) and I had not been on a train since it had expired which is which I didn't purchase the new railcard the day before. I paid the £73.50 penalty fare at the time (£50 penalty and £23.50 for another train ticket) as I had to run to catch a plane as their faffing about with this was going to make me miss the flight. Do I have grounds for appeal and could they escalate the issue further i.e. prosecution threat if I put in my home address details into the appeal document? Thanks!
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Greater Anglia penalty fare appeal
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Provided you purchased the new railcard before you boarded the train, your ticket would have been valid.
The Ticket Inspector seems to be under the misapprehension that a valid railcard needs to be held at the time of the ticket purchase. This is not correct.
The railcard needs to be valid at the time of use. If it was, you have grounds to seek a refund of the penalty plus new ticket and seek a goodwill gesture from the TOC for the inconvenience you have suffered.
The Ticket Inspector seems to be under the misapprehension that a valid railcard needs to be held at the time of the ticket purchase. This is not correct.
The railcard needs to be valid at the time of use. If it was, you have grounds to seek a refund of the penalty plus new ticket and seek a goodwill gesture from the TOC for the inconvenience you have suffered.
If you purchased the railcard after boarding the train, the only grounds you have to appeal here are technical ones relating to how the notice was filled out. In principle, the penalty fare was issued properly, but sometimes the notice can be filled out wrongly rendering it contrary to the Penalty Fares Regulations. If you upload the notice with your details redacted members can advise if you have a technical ground of appeal.
Once you appeal the penalty fare and that appeal is accepted for consideration then they cannot prosecute you for the offence.
Can you also confirm when you purchased the railcard and when you boarded the train?
Once you appeal the penalty fare and that appeal is accepted for consideration then they cannot prosecute you for the offence.
Can you also confirm when you purchased the railcard and when you boarded the train?
Hello and welcome!
Can you demonstrate a valid railcard for your ticket, with the railcard purchased before you boarded the train at Tottenham Hale?
If so, you would have grounds for appeal.
If you bought the railcard after boarding the train then you would not.
EDIT It looks like you got three responses all saying essentially the same thing at the same time!
Can you demonstrate a valid railcard for your ticket, with the railcard purchased before you boarded the train at Tottenham Hale?
If so, you would have grounds for appeal.
If you bought the railcard after boarding the train then you would not.
EDIT It looks like you got three responses all saying essentially the same thing at the same time!
Welcome to the forum.
Could you upload a copy of the Penalty Fare you received? Please redact any personal details (name/address/reference number). This will allow us to check whether it was filled out correctly.
Can you clarify exactly when you bought your new Railcard - was it before you got on the train at Tottenham Hale? What kind of Railcard was it - I'm presuming digital? If so, was it downloaded and were you able to display it when asked at Stansted?
In theory a Penalty Fare can be withdrawn after being issued, but this is very rare and would not normally happen unless there is evidence of fraud (e.g. if you lied about the journey you were making).
There are three stages of appeal; once you have submitted a first-stage appeal, the train company is barred from prosecuting you for the incident in question unless they cancel the Penalty Fare before the appeal is decided (or is due to be decided).
We have seen a lot of Penalty Fare threads relating to journeys from Tottenham Hale to Stansted Airport; a previous poster wrote this appeal based on the signage at Tottenham Hale (which, at least at that time, didn't meet the legal requirements). You might want to try submitting a similar appeal.
Thanks for all your quick responses! I tried to purchase the railcard when getting the ticket but I don't know if with dodgy signal if the purchase was delayed in processing? I've attached the penalty fare notice receipt.
Watershed - could they retract the penalty fare notice and try to prosecute even when I've already paid the penalty fare?
Watershed - could they retract the penalty fare notice and try to prosecute even when I've already paid the penalty fare?
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It doesn’t matter if you bought your railcard after you bought your ticket, but it matters that you bought the railcard before boarding the train, so if you can find out exactly when you bought the railcard it could be important.
If you bought both after you were on the train, then the penalty fare is probably valid.
To clarify, when did you try to buy the Railcard and when did the purchase go through?
When did you buy the ticket?
Were you able to show your Railcard at Stansted?
The Penalty Fare notice appears to be correctly filled out, however a signage-based appeal would still be possible as above.
In theory yes, but as I've said, there would usually need to be evidence of fraud for them to do so. The time window they have is also very small.
Let's just say, I don't think we have ever heard of a train company withdrawing a Penalty Fare merely as "retaliation" because it has been appealed. That would certainly not be within the spirit of the Regulations, and any prosecution that resulted could be challenged as an abuse of process.
My ticket was definitely valid before I boarded because I had to use it to scan through the barriers to get to the platform. I was trying to purchase the railcard when waiting for the train but don't know exactly when the purchase went through. I've checked my bank statement but it doesn't give an exact time either, unfortunately. I showed my railcard at Stansted but she said it wasn't valid.
There was a sign mentioning you couldn't use Oyster or Contact Less at the barriers but don't think I saw anything about railcards.
There was a sign mentioning you couldn't use Oyster or Contact Less at the barriers but don't think I saw anything about railcards.
What is the time shown on your Railcard purchase confirmation email? This may be important evidence.
What train did you board - was it the 07:22, arriving into Stansted at 07:59? That would tally with the time shown on the Penalty Fare receipt.
Did you have the Railcard downloaded before you boarded the train?
If you hadn't downloaded the Railcard by the time you boarded the train, you committed an offence under the Railway Byelaws. Byelaw 18(1) makes it an offence to board a train without a valid ticket. Without the required Railcard in your possession at the time of boarding, your ticket wasn't valid.
However, Penalty Fares operate under a separate set of Regulations to the Byelaws. A PF cannot be issued just because a Byelaw offence has been committed. PFs can only be issued for a failure to show a valid ticket at the time of the inspection.
We have seen quite a lot of cases of PFs being issued for tickets (or, as in this case, possibly Railcards) being bought after boarding. These PFs are not valid. The correct way for the operator to pursue these cases is through a prosecution for the Byelaw offence (for which they may decide to offer an out of Court settlement, in lieu of prosecution).
There didn't need to be a sign about Railcards specifically. It is taken as a given that you must have a Railcard if you use a Railcard discounted ticket.
However, the legal PF signage requirements (as set out in the linked thread, which I strongly encourage you to read) are not met by having posters that talk about Oyster/contactless in general terms. The PF Regulations require that specific form of wording be required, in addition to other elements such as operator names or branding. In the absence of these requirements being met, the PF is similarly not valid
Are you saying here that you previously had a Railcard which expired a "couple of weeks" before the Stansted journey? ,Then you bought a new one online on the day of travel. Also, are you saying that you showed the old Railcard to to the inspector?
I'm just trying to clarify what you showed to the inspector.
Exactly.
Your answers appear to be a little “evasive”.
We don’t care, but we’re trying to ask the same questions which might be asked were you to be taken to court.
If you can’t answer our questions clearly, here, then think about how you would handle answering the same questions in a more formal setting.
On the other hand, if you can answer the questions, we can help you in case things escalate.
Your answers appear to be a little “evasive”.
We don’t care, but we’re trying to ask the same questions which might be asked were you to be taken to court.
If you can’t answer our questions clearly, here, then think about how you would handle answering the same questions in a more formal setting.
On the other hand, if you can answer the questions, we can help you in case things escalate.
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