Greater Anglia not allowing TOD

[Haywain]

Do retailers get charged different amounts for the supply of their tickets depending in the format sold? i.e. are e-tickets charged to the retailer at a different rate to CCST?

Yes - this is one of the factors driving the move to eTickets. For ToD there is a charge to the retailer for using that fulfilment method and for postal fulfilment there are overheads for providing equipment, materials and staff although it is usually done through an external contractor. eTickets will have costs but these are going to be very small in comparison. It's also worth bearing in mind that as fulfilment to CCST reduces the cost of the ticket stock increases. Another relevant factor is that that settlement for the fare takes place at the time of issue of the ticket, so for postal or eTicket fulfilment the money is immediately available to TOCs and retailers whereas for ToD it's only at the time the ticket is collected.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Oct 2021 ==

All of those things are already in place, the TOC is just reducing to give me the option.
Indeed they have to stay in place until there's a solution for the tube etc.
The marginal cost is the piece of card, probably less than 1p.

Things that are in place still have to be maintained and, in the case of CCST printers, there are fewer of them as the number of tickets issued that way reduces.

 

[arb]

Who is charging who this money for using TOD? If I buy a ticket from Greater Anglia's website, and collect from a Greater Anglia branded ticket machine, at a station run by Greater Anglia, then who are Greater Anglia paying, and why?

 

[trebor79]

Things that are in place still have to be maintained and, in the case of CCST printers, there are fewer of them as the number of tickets issued that way reduces.

But as discussed, they have to be maintained anyway as some tickets can only be issued on CCST.
Greater Anglia spent a huge amount of money within the past 2 or 3 years installing TVMs at every station. To now refuse to use that infrastructure unless forced to is silly.

 

[Haywain]

Who is charging who this money for using TOD? If I buy a ticket from Greater Anglia's website, and collect from a Greater Anglia branded ticket machine, at a station run by Greater Anglia, then who are Greater Anglia paying, and why?

GA are paying themselves in this case, but the charges are fixed and have been in place for many years. I would assume that RDG set the charges. You should bear in mind that the biggest retailer of rail tickets is a third party who provide no infrastructure fior the collection of tickets and their sales far outweigh those of GA.

 

[skyhigh]

Yes this suggestion has cropped up many times before and is a valid suggestion in my opinion; sadly I am not aware of it ever being implemented.

East Midlands Railway have installed 'Smart Kiosks' at certain stations which do this.

Ticket Machines - Smart Kiosk | EMR

What tickets are available from this machine Tickets for today Tickets for future travel Collection of Smartcard tickets purchased online How do I pay? The machine only accepts card payments, as listed below Google Pay Apple Pay Visa cards Mastercard To pay by cash please visit a ticket office...

www.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk

How is this different to other TVM’s? The Kiosk will issue tickets as barcode tickets on plain paper. Customers can also collect Smartcard products purchased on-line from the Kiosk. The Kiosk has two Smart collection points, so one customer could be using the main screen whilst another collects their Smart ticket on the side screen.The machine accepts card payments only.

 

[Haywain]

East Midlands Railway have installed 'Smart Kiosks' at certain stations which do this.

Ticket Machines - Smart Kiosk | EMR

What tickets are available from this machine Tickets for today Tickets for future travel Collection of Smartcard tickets purchased online How do I pay? The machine only accepts card payments, as listed below Google Pay Apple Pay Visa cards Mastercard To pay by cash please visit a ticket office...

www.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk

Nothing about ToD there.

 

[arb]

Why should retailers offer an expensive means of fulfilment when cheaper options are also available?

GA are paying themselves in this case, but the charges are fixed and have been in place for many years. I would assume that RDG set the charges. You should bear in mind that the biggest retailer of rail tickets is a third party who provide no infrastructure fior the collection of tickets and their sales far outweigh those of GA.

So if TOCs are paying themselves, a TOC claiming that e-tickets are cheaper to fulfil than TOD because they don't have to pay themselves seems like a flawed piece of reasoning. (EDIT: why don't they argue that by encouraging TOD over e-tickets, they would receive more income from themselves? )

I can see why a third-party retailer would prefer e-tickets to TOD under this line of reasoning, but not TOCs.

(And I accept there may be other reasons for TOCs to dislike TOD, but this doesn't seem like it should be one of those reasons).

 

[Starmill]

East Midlands Railway have installed 'Smart Kiosks' at certain stations which do this.

Ticket Machines - Smart Kiosk | EMR

What tickets are available from this machine Tickets for today Tickets for future travel Collection of Smartcard tickets purchased online How do I pay? The machine only accepts card payments, as listed below Google Pay Apple Pay Visa cards Mastercard To pay by cash please visit a ticket office...

www.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk

They can sell tickets to paper printing yes. But as I read it an online fulfilment method was being discussed, and unfortunately that's unavailable. Many ticket offices can also issue to eticket.

 

[Wallsendmag]

It seems to me that once cross London and outboundary travelcards get resolved then CCST will be completely killed off.

Outboundry Travelcards are available on Smartcard , that box is already ticked

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Oct 2021 ==

So if TOCs are paying themselves, a TOC claiming that e-tickets are cheaper to fulfil than TOD because they don't have to pay themselves seems like a flawed piece of reasoning. (EDIT: why don't they argue that by encouraging TOD over e-tickets, they would receive more income from themselves? )

I can see why a third-party retailer would prefer e-tickets to TOD under this line of reasoning, but not TOCs.

(And I accept there may be other reasons for TOCs to dislike TOD, but this doesn't seem like it should be one of those reasons).

We supply ToD facilities that cost us a fortune for third party retailers why should your hard earned taxes go to supporting a private company that doesn’t want to move with the times. I can see a big shake up coming in ToD facilities especially as the TfL solution seems to be gaining legs

 

[arb]

We supply ToD facilities that cost us a fortune for third party retailers

As a said, I can see why ToD is bad for the interface between a TOC and a third-party retailer. But that's not a defence to the claim that a TOC paying the fulfilment fee to itself is an additional expense to the TOC, which is the only point I was making.

Different question: ignoring the fulfilment fee and focussing solely on running the infrastructure, does a machine that can sell tickets and print ToD cost significantly more to run than a machine that can just sell tickets? And would a hypothetical machine that can sell tickets and print e-tickets cost significantly more to run than a machine that can just sell tickets?

 

[Haywain]

As a said, I can see why ToD is bad for the interface between a TOC and a third-party retailer. But that's not a defence to the claim that a TOC paying the fulfilment fee to itself is an additional expense to the TOC, which is the only point I was making.

You are failing to see that the TVM itself is an expense to the TOC, and anything that discourages use of it is a benefit, even if not in the short term.

 

[alistairlees]

Retailers don’t want ToD. It costs a lot, customers don’t like it (compared to eTickets) and it has lots of out of control things that can go wrong (TVM won’t work, that sort of thing).

ToD has been something that TOCs have benefitted from immensely though - through the overly-high ToD fees paid by independent retailers (and also by tocs that don’t have TVMs, such as CrossCountry), the introduction of many more TVMs than are really needed has been subsidised. The ToD fees were reduced by RDG three years ago, which does suggest that previously too much had been charged…

ToD income for TOCs has significantly declined recently with the take up of eTickets by the public. This is a trend that looks set to continue, and ToD is likely to end within a few years (though no decision is yet made).

 

[Ianno87]

…

ToD income for TOCs has significantly declined recently with the take up of eTickets by the public. This is a trend that looks set to continue, and ToD is likely to end within a few years (though no decision is yet made).

I still usually do ToD, but it is very noticeable how less in demand the TVMs at Cambridge station area in recent years.

 

[arb]

You are failing to see that the TVM itself is an expense to the TOC

I'm not that I'm failing to see that. It seems pretty obvious to me that the desired end state is getting rid of all physical TOC-provided ticket selling facilities (ToD, TVMs, ticket offices) and have everyone do everything online.

All I'm arguing against is the people who are trying to defend Greater Anglia not selling ToD on their own website with non-sensical reasons, e.g. the cost of the fulfilment fee (which we've established they pay to themselves so isn't a real cost), or the cost of providing ToD to third-party retailers (if that in itself was the real problem, then TOCs should force third-parties to use e-tickets but continue to provide ToD themselves, and the problem is solved).

[ToD] has lots of out of control things that can go wrong (TVM won’t work, that sort of thing).

I don't see how that's a justification either. If it was, we wouldn't switch over to tickets on phones because they have lots of out of control things that can go wrong (no signal, low battery, app suddenly stops working due to a poorly tested over-the-air upgrade). Unless of course "things that go wrong that are the TOCs fault" are a problem, but "things that go wrong that can be blamed on the passenger" are not a problem

 

[alistairlees]

I don't see how that's a justification either. If it was, we wouldn't switch over to tickets on phones because they have lots of out of control things that can go wrong (no signal, low battery, app suddenly stops working due to a poorly tested over-the-air upgrade). Unless of course "things that go wrong that are the TOCs fault" are a problem, but "things that go wrong that can be blamed on the passenger" are not a problem

A TVM introduces another interface into the chain, one which neither the retailer nor the customer can be certain about or control; and which neither party can fix. Added to which, they cost more and are less liked by most customers.

You don't need a signal or an app to show an eTicket; and most people manage to not let their phones die when making journeys (and there are ways to mitigate this such as taking a battery pack, or just a cable (to use in a USB socket), if you are concerned; there are no ways to mitigate against TVM failure).

 

[gingerheid]

I would be fine with being able to use a TVM to print an e-ticket on ordinary paper roll - the key being that the ticketing system shouldn't be based entirely upon an assumption that the passenger has access to at least one of 1) a working smartphone or 2) a printer at home or work.

A working smartphone that will have battery for your full journey...

I wouldn't mind electronic ticket options if the alternative to you being able to present it electronically was having to give your e-mail address so they could check the ticket existed, rather than a hefty penalty.

 

[trebor79]

A working smartphone that will have battery for your full journey...

I wouldn't mind electronic ticket options if the alternative to you being able to present it electronically was having to give your e-mail address so they could check the ticket existed, rather than a hefty penalty.

Yes, a one time code like a TOD reference would be a good idea. Scan the QR or if the passengers technology has failed they can quote the reference (which they've writtn down somewhere). Should be easily doable.
The other reason I like physical tickets is because they aren't reliant upon my phone having charge etc.

 

[arb]

A TVM introduces another interface into the chain, one which neither the retailer nor the customer can be certain about or control; and which neither party can fix.

The same is true of phones, it's just that you looked for mitigations with phones, such as carrying a battery pack. There are plenty of mitigations for TVMs failing: allow the ticket office to print tickets, allow guards to print tickets, allow travel on the booking reference, provide a way of letting staff know when TVMs at certain stations have failed, do better testing of their logging/reporting behaviour when tickets fail to print or get stuck inside.

I bet if the desired state was to move people away from tickets on phone and instead to using TVMs, you'd have listed some/all these mitigations, whilst quoting the problem of a phone possibly running out of battery, and not mentioning battery packs.

Occasional TVM failures is not, in itself, a justification for getting rid of TVMs. Just like occasional phone battery/signal failures would not be a justification for not allowing anybody to have tickets on phones.

 

[Starmill]

The same is true of phones, it's just that you looked for mitigations with phones, such as carrying a battery pack. There are plenty of mitigations for TVMs failing: allow the ticket office to print tickets, allow guards to print tickets, allow travel on the booking reference, provide a way of letting staff know when TVMs at certain stations have failed, do better testing of their logging/reporting behaviour when tickets fail to print or get stuck inside.

I bet if the desired state was to move people away from tickets on phone and instead to using TVMs, you'd have listed some/all these mitigations, whilst quoting the problem of a phone possibly running out of battery, and not mentioning battery packs.

Occasional TVM failures is not, in itself, a justification for getting rid of TVMs. Just like occasional phone battery/signal failures would not be a justification for not allowing anybody to have tickets on phones.

If something goes wrong with a ticket machine, the operator will have to try and get it fixed. If someone's unable to collect their tickets, and then gets charged again, the operator is likely to have to pay out compensation or deal with a complaint.

If your ticket is an eticket and something goes wrong with your phone, they can charge you for another ticket and keep it. And they don't have to take the cost of the machine.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Remember the important bit here that everyone keeps missing , YOU DON'T NEED A SMARTPHONE TO USE AN eTICKET.

 

[Hadders]

Outboundry Travelcards are available on Smartcard , that box is already ticked

Where can I purchase a Super Off Peak Day Travelcard, with a railcard discount, from Stevenage to London Zones 1-6 on a smartcard?

 

[XAM2175]

Remember the important bit here that everyone keeps missing , YOU DON'T NEED A SMARTPHONE TO USE AN eTICKET.

And if you also don't have a printer?

 

[221129]

And if you also don't have a printer?

Visit a library, a friend, family? The percentage of people that can't access (instead of won't) will be vanishingly small as to not to worry about.

 

[XAM2175]

Visit a library, a friend, family? The percentage of people that can't access (instead of won't) will be vanishingly small as to not to worry about.

I'm not so sure that it is, just yet, and I'm uncomfortable with externalising the requirements like that because it undermines accessibility.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Where can I purchase a Super Off Peak Day Travelcard, with a railcard discount, from Stevenage to London Zones 1-6 on a smartcard?

OK I rephrase that, all LNER priced outboundary Travelcards are available on Smartcards. So it shouldn't be beyond the possibility for other TOCs to follow our example.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Oct 2021 ==

And if you also don't have a printer?

If only there was some handy location that you could but a ticket from , say in a station for example.

 

[bakerstreet]

I'm not so sure that it is, just yet, and I'm uncomfortable with externalising the requirements like that because it undermines accessibility.

I agree with this.
There are many people who simply cannot afford a printer or email.

Approx 2.5m people used a food bank in 2020-2021.

(source https://www.statista.com/statistics/382695/uk-foodbank-users/)

1 in 5 over 65s are relying on cash for day to day expenses.

(source https://www.ageuk.org.uk/latest-pre...er-people-rely-on-cash-for-everyday-spending/)

Visit a library, a friend, family? The percentage of people that can't access (instead of won't) will be vanishingly small as to not to worry about.

I am happy to be proved wrong because tech advances have overall helped me but do you have a definition for ‘vanishingly small as to not worry about?’

Preventing those who rely on cash from paying cash to travel by rail concerns me.

When TfL tried to stop cash being accepted at tube machines (to buy paper tickets or top up Oyster cards) there was huge pressure to back down.

Can you pay cash for an e-ticket?

If so then fair enough and all well and good. From an open ticket office or a TVM.
But the replies from those within rail suggests the industry would be happier for this not to be on offer.

If you can’t do the above, I would worry about many people who will be stuck

1.2 million don’t have access to any banking services.

Source 2018/19 figures https://assets.publishing.service.g...70/financial_inclusion_report_2018-19_web.pdf)

Even pay as you use bank cards lead to a significant premium.

For these people, a ticket office or machine which takes cash are the keys to their freedom to travel.

 

[XAM2175]

If only there was some handy location that you could but a ticket from , say in a station for example.

For now, which is pretty much the entire point of my post.

 

[alistairlees]

eTickets have been added as a way of getting tickets and, at the same time, the traditional ways of buying tickets have pretty much all remained available - station ticket offices have remained open, ticket vending machines have renained (and, in fact, around 1,000 have been added nationally) and you are still entitled to buy on train if neither of these are available.

So I do not agree with arguments that eTickets have reduced accessibility; they have not affected accessibility at all, it seems, as no-one's ability to buy tickets in ways that they did before has been reduced.

I do recognise that there is a threat to ticket offices. But, by and large, that has not happened yet. And, to some degree, that will be mitigated by the extension of pay as you go schemes.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

Can you pay cash for an e-ticket?

If so then fair enough and all well and good. From an open ticket office or a TVM.
But the replies from those within rail suggests the industry would be happier for this not to be on offer.

I'm sure that vending machines are a problem the operators would rather not have, but at least moving to eTickets allows simpler, more reliable machines in future with probably a bigger capacity, and a large saving to be made on removing the paper path through ticket gates. More shops and other businesses could issue them as well (or printed by cash machines, as done in e.g. Portugal two decades ago, not that anyone uses them any more). The eTickets are also able to show much more information about the fare and are much better from a fraud point of view. Exclusion is a problem, keeping the vending machines machines (new, or adapted for the cheaper paper rolls) would address that.

 

[AlterEgo]

For people who worry about the demise of cash catching out the vulnerable, how do you square this with London's buses not taking cash for seven years now?