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Greater Anglia Good and Bad Discussion

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Total agreement here.

He was surprised at the C4 expose of FGW underhand ticket selling.

Let me reiterate.

Jamie Burles did not to attend tonight nor did Richard Schofield.

The fact they did is to their credit.

Many of us in Anglia are regally sick of paying high fees for class 321s built in 1982 .

Certain people on this forum supporting what Mr Burles says is indefensible is risable.
 
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george.h

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To clear things up, I've said the 321s are solid trains that have plenty of life left in them, but I've never said they don't need a refurbishment or major refresh.....

I have no idea why some people think we're all Abellio fanboys on here. It's just that people are sticking to the big issues, not the trivial ones.

I'd agree.... In fact the worst 321s I've travelled on seem to be cast-offs from other regions (i.e. TOCs), judging by the different upholstery and weird (first class seats in standard class, then standard class 2+2 seats, then back to the usual 3+2) seating.

I've yet to travel on the refurbished set (can't remember the company's name) but, from the pics, I'd still prefer the 3+2 arrangement than the 2+2 with more "sardine" standing space...
 
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450.emu

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...

Good luck with the Oyster card from Brentwood now that the "Metro" service has become TFL Rail. According the TFL Rail website there is only one station on the Metro line outside of London - Shenfield. Sorry but Brentwood doesn't exist anymore, at least according to TFL!

Someone clearly doesn't know that Brentwood is not a London borough nor part of a London borough and thus technically IS outside of London. I would have thought that it being outside of the roundabout at the bottom of the M1 (aka the M25) would have been enough of a clue! LOL
Sadly, too many people confuse it with Brentford :roll: I often get letters sent to me as 'Brentford, Middlesex, Essex' :roll: but I guess as Brentwood is a stone's throw from Harold Wood (which is just about London) they never took it into consideration. They might have to change their leaflets to mention their second Essex station (They make no mention of Cheshunt in Hertfordshire either as being just outside London :roll: ) but I guess this can be amended like Theobolds Grove :p

Re Chelmsford, tiny ticket hall + temperamental HP D530 desktops for ticket machines meaning staff using mobile Avantix ticket printers would contribute to aggro for your journey into London... Would the journies justify a weekly ticket instead to save the bother? ;)
 
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There is no life left in 321s Mr Morris.

They are old and the second least reliable power GA have according to Mr Burles tonight.

Only 317s are worse.

I am not acusing you of being a GA fan. Who would be?
 

george.h

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....Jamie Burles did not to attend tonight nor did Richard Schofield.

The fact they did is to their credit.

Does that mean they DID attend or they did NOT?

Many of us in Anglia are regally sick of paying high fees for class 321s built in 1982

Oddly before the franchise became Greater Anglia I remember most delays being caused by Anglia Railways clapped out InterCity trains. Most of which, with marginally updated loco, are still running and STILL causing delays. Really - slam doors on an InterCity train in 2015? That is when you can tell WHERE they are from, with a mixture of AGA, Anglia, Virgin and other rolling stock. Sort of "if it moves, run it"...

Edit: Eversholt Rail! That's who have done the 321 refurbed demonstrator... BTW you should try one of the trains from Brighton to London. They make the 321s look positively futuristic!
 
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dosxuk

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There is no life left in 321s Mr Morris.

They are old and the second least reliable power GA have according to Mr Burles tonight.

Only 317s are worse.

I'd quite happily swap you your 321's and 317's for the 14x and 150's we've got up here if it wasn't for the lack of investment in electrification.
 
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I would keep 317s against 150s and particularly 142s.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
My error George.

Drink interferred with reality.
 

george.h

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Sadly, too many people confuse it with Brentford :roll: I often get letters sent to me as 'Brentford, Middlesex, Essex'

"Lord" Sugar must be fuming! His HQ being snubbed like that! LOL

Re Chelmsford, tiny ticket hall + temperamental HP D530 desktops for ticket machines meaning staff using mobile Avantix ticket printers would contribute to aggro for your journey into London... Would the journies justify a weekly ticket instead to save the bother? ;)

Actually the "roving" ticket sellers are great, once they grasp the concept of "Off Peak Day Return to Zone 2-3 for TOMORROW". Even they say the ticket machines are, and I quote "C**P".

"I'd quite happily swap you your 321's and 317's for the 14x and 150's we've got up here if it wasn't for the lack of investment in electrification. "

Please NO! I was born in Tyneside and memories of the dreaded "railbus" cause me to shudder even now!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I would keep 317s against 150s and particularly 142s.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
My error George.

Drink interferred with reality.

I'll wager your "drink" against my bottle of chardonnay for mistripeing....:grin:
 

Clarence Yard

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I'm no apologist for the GA but the 317 and 321 units, properly maintained and cleaned are good units. I've travelled on both AGA fleets recently and been a little disappointed, to my surprise, as I thought Abellio were better than that.

The problem is that GA handed back too many 317 units on take over, pushed the availability of their fleets to levels that didn't allow proper rectification of defects and the insides have been let go. I don't call badly worn seat covers acceptable, nor cleaning frequencies or specifications that are obviously not good enough. That isn't a short franchise problem, that's poor management of the basics.

What can be laid at the door of the DfT, rather than AGA, is them taking all that money off the punters via their franchise operators (the treasury "travel tax") while not ensuring that there is a proper (and independently monitored) quality regime in place, such as Scotlands SQUIRE, where failure means loss of real money.

All because the number in the bottom right hand corner of the bid always seem to matter most to the DfT. Good operators such as FGE and Anglia have been replaced by ones who have failed to come up to previous standards.

It is definitely time for a change. But who?
 

samuelmorris

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Quite impressed having met Jamie Burles this evening. The way discussions have run up until now painted a picture in my head of a management figure not fully in touch with the workings of the company underneath, the sort of guy who would offer generic PR responses to queries and complaints. That picture was pretty inaccurate.
Jamie attended for a full 4 hours, until almost everyone except me and Ian had left. He seemed very approachable and more importantly honest about the shortcomings of the operation so far, as well as having detailed knowledge of the answers to every issue without having to consult any documents to look stuff up.

The Stagecoach joint venture proposal was immediately explained as a means of bringing on better experience of new rolling stock deployment to the organisation and quite interestingly, Burles' (and therefore the company's, it seems) opinion regarding 321 refurbishment is that he'd much rather cascade the lot of them and introduce fleet of new stock if the ITT actually allows it, conceding that now is the time to push as much influence forward as possible into making that happen.

The cleanliness argument has been met with a well-known public response of additional cleaners, but what I wasn't aware of (perhaps I just haven't been looking) is a schedule adjustment to how often the units are deep cleaned, down from current 45-50 days to 28 days, the current interval apparently already being a marked improvement on the past.

IF, and that's a big if, Abellio stick to what was discussed this evening and the bidding process is condusive to it, I actually think the Stagecoach partnership is my preferred option. Hopefully they won't bid themselves into a whole with the franchise this time round. Running the operation at break-even due to the premium payments explains quite a lot about some of the goings on.
 

jopsuk

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a franchise proposal that replaced the 321s (and 317s? might as well...) would be interesting- an order to replace 94 units (plus another 45?) would be a huge contract... go ambitious and cascade the 360s (21) and even 379s (30) as well? We'll see what the ITT allows, what's financially viable and what the winning tender says.
 

samuelmorris

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That's the point - replacement of the 321s is desirable, but as much as it's an expensive commitment to replace that many units, it's also a tall order to find homes for that many units without leaving them to rot for several years while we wait for the wires to go up. The government would have a hard time approving a scheme that sees a surplus of units sitting around for ages after all these shortages.

FWIW, Burles was also very candid that the reliability figure of 317s is shameful even compared to the 321s. It's hoped that remote monitoring can get them out of the disaster zone. What happens with regard to traction package replacement remains to be seen.
 
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Impressed with Burles honesty last night.

But we are still left with filthy old trains.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Waiting on the ITT detail. Review then.
 

jon0844

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But being left with these trains is something that was known from the outset. Nothing will change until the new franchise, and even then it will take time.

For all intents and purposes, as I said a while ago on Twitter to Ian and others, you can be pretty much 100% certain there will be new trains. They just aren't going to appear tomorrow, but with that in mind it's perhaps not necessary for some people to spend their entire life moaning about them - or the state of the interior, which is 90% of the time going to be caused by anti-social passengers.

Now I use AGA regularly, it's quite an eye opener to see the way some people treat the trains (and stations). And indeed staff. I thought it could be bad on a late night from from King's Cross to Hatfield, but it's nothing like the trains that go through stations like Edmonton or Enfield Lock - even in the daytime.

Stratford is another station full of rather 'interesting' characters.

The new trains probably need interiors like the top deck of buses with plastic seats and holes in the floor to drain the water when they're washed down with a hose!!
 
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New trains will come in 2018 Mr M.

Allegedly.

Till then 321s rule the way with us paying for them. Take your point on the scruffy nature of trains and people using them.

But the Upminster Skip from Romford is infinitely better now it is cleanee regularly by Tfl opposed to the way it was ignored by Abellio
 

jon0844

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I don't use that route, so can't comment either way.

All I know is that I see 'train presentation' staff on a load of trains at Stratford and Liverpool Street and for the most part, despite seeing the photos on Twitter and witnessing some bad behaviour, the trains when I get on at a terminus are usually clean. How the end up at the other end is another story.

Perhaps I have an unfairly positive view of things based on using the WAML, but at the same time, perhaps Ian should be more open minded based on his own experiences and realise that it's not all bad.

Of course, I am not using 321s daily on AGA (I am on GTR, where they've been given a perfectly good refresh and seem reliable, along with the 317/1s) but the 317s despite some horrible colour schemes, seem to do fine getting me from A to B every single time I use them.
 
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Think there is little doubt that if the provider puts effort into cleaning the public do too.

There are obvious exclusions to this rule.

Ian convened last nights meeting. Praise to him there.
 

Dave1987

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Well its around £3m per new carriage. To replace all the 321's would cost roughly £1.1bn. If they are talking about a whole new fleet for GEML including the 360's and intercity sets your talking around £2bn plus.
 
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Thanks Dave.

And what do we pay for?

Delinquent trains and filthy conditions?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I assume Dave is a parody account.

He is certainly amusing in suggesting cl321s can be patched up to do another 10 years plus.

We pay a lot of money to travel on a railway which subsidies other UK rail services.

In Anglia we have some of the oldest least reliable stock

If you are being serious I have grave concerns for you and your wellbeing.
 

Wolfie

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The Stagecoach joint venture proposal was immediately explained as a means of bringing on better experience of new rolling stock deployment to the organisation and quite interestingly, Burles' (and therefore the company's, it seems) opinion regarding 321 refurbishment is that he'd much rather cascade the lot of them and introduce fleet of new stock if the ITT actually allows it, conceding that now is the time to push as much influence forward as possible into making that happen.

IF, and that's a big if, Abellio stick to what was discussed this evening and the bidding process is condusive to it, I actually think the Stagecoach partnership is my preferred option. Hopefully they won't bid themselves into a whole with the franchise this time round. Running the operation at break-even due to the premium payments explains quite a lot about some of the goings on.

Given the savings measures for the DfT budget announced by the Chancellor today I wouldn't exactly hold your breath on complete replacement of all of the 317/321s.... Suffice to say that DfT and HMT are unlikely to forego premium payments to allow new stock to be procured in such a climate...

Well its around £3m per new carriage. To replace all the 321's would cost roughly £1.1bn. If they are talking about a whole new fleet for GEML including the 360's and intercity sets your talking around £2bn plus.

If these figures are accurate I would say no chance...

a franchise proposal that replaced the 321s (and 317s? might as well...) would be interesting- an order to replace 94 units (plus another 45?) would be a huge contract... go ambitious and cascade the 360s (21) and even 379s (30) as well? We'll see what the ITT allows, what's financially viable and what the winning tender says.

Well it also essentially is asking the very same ROSCOs - which will be expected to potentially take a financial bath on the existing stock which has, with refurbishment, at least 15 years of life left - to buy the new stock... hum not much conflict there then....

That's the point - replacement of the 321s is desirable, but as much as it's an expensive commitment to replace that many units, it's also a tall order to find homes for that many units without leaving them to rot for several years while we wait for the wires to go up. The government would have a hard time approving a scheme that sees a surplus of units sitting around for ages after all these shortages.

Yup, you've got it! How happy would the ROSCOs be at such a situation? Would their charges for the new stock be pitched to cover their losses on the old?
 
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Wolfie

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Our breath is held Wolfie.

Our patience is near snapping point

Well my nearly 30 years of Whitehall experience (not, thankfully, in DfT) suggests that you will likely be disappointed.

Cynically, given that there isn't an election coming up and the ruling party isn't trying to convince you to vote for them, you don't have the leverage that the North had a few months ago.....
 

Dave1987

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Thanks Dave.

And what do we pay for?

Delinquent trains and filthy conditions?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I assume Dave is a parody account.

He is certainly amusing in suggesting cl321s can be patched up to do another 10 years plus.

We pay a lot of money to travel on a railway which subsidies other UK rail services.

In Anglia we have some of the oldest least reliable stock

If you are being serious I have grave concerns for you and your wellbeing.

Sorry if the facts of the matter somehow offend you or make you think I'm a parody account. Or maybe you are just trolling?

The 321's just need a bloody good refresh and they will be good for another 10 years. Or are you suggesting all 94 be scrapped? Whether that be on GEML or elsewhere remains to be seen.

The fact that Mr Edwards believes every GEML train should have a class 1 headcode merely because its a London commuter line is ridiculous. I remember him saying he thinks GEML should have a new fleet every 10 years which is also ridiculous. He also seems to think all trains over 20 yrs old need scrapping. If that happened then the cost of trains would shoot up even more!

Your last comment will be treated with the contempt it deserves!
 

Dave1987

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Then forgive me for ignoring any subsequent of your posts.

Fine by me...

If you cannot have a conversation with people who don't agree with you, why on earth are you on this forum.

Can image what the reaction to your attitude would be for people who have to travel on Pacers, 321's are luxurious compared to those!
 
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Shout to the bottom. If you want a conversation lets have one.

Why is medocrity on GA ok?

What is wrong with wanting newer trains to replace 30 yrold stock which by Mr Burles admission is not to standard?

What is wrong with campaigning for improved services as Mr Edwards and many others do?

What means railway companies special they can do wrong?

I assume you are either a rail enthusiast or employee.
 
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