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Greater Anglia Good and Bad Discussion

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Wayneh

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If EC saying we agreed to keep minutes private and me saying I am abivalent on the issue is like UKIP, I suspect your credibility is damaged.

I have never met a group of 10 people in any environment who all agree on everything.

We are attempted to improve the situation in Anglia.

If people here are desperate to know what is happening come and look for yourselves.
 
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jon0844

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Someone needs to lead, and if there's any internal disagreements about the way to go then you're doomed from the outset.

Someone thought the original web design, including the layout, logo, colour scheme (passing off has already been mentioned) was a good idea. Whoever that person is should be kicked out immediately.

The people on Twitter that use seat coverings to complain about how their money is all going abroad have NO place being part of your organisation/campaign. They're just sad people who have no understanding of how the railway works. Let them moan about their sad, inane and irrelevant issues privately - while you concentrate on working WITH the people involved to improve things.

Treat AGA with some respect, and convince them that providing a better service and fixing issues is beneficial to them in the long run. Listen to them to learn about what they can and can't do, and the reasons why, and their longer term aspirations.

Then when you can find some middle ground, make it clear that while working with them, you'll also be watching them and keeping them in check.

When we had a local rail users group here, it tried to work with the operator and encourage things like adopting stations and getting local users to help contribute to keeping the station tidy (including putting in flower pots etc). Sadly, the person running that was too busy with other work commitments and it sort of died, but that's a far better way than working with people that set up stupid websites and post xenophobic nonsense, or moan about a train having dust building up in areas most passengers don't even see.

Trust me, I (and others) are trying to help you even if you see it as a series of personal attacks.
 

Wayneh

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Dont see as a personal attack Jon.

Disappointed to be equated with UKIP by a sensible bloke.
 

Jala_150

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Someone needs to lead, and if there's any internal disagreements about the way to go then you're doomed from the outset.

Someone thought the original web design, including the layout, logo, colour scheme (passing off has already been mentioned) was a good idea. Whoever that person is should be kicked out immediately.

The people on Twitter that use seat coverings to complain about how their money is all going abroad have NO place being part of your organisation/campaign. They're just sad people who have no understanding of how the railway works. Let them moan about their sad, inane and irrelevant issues privately - while you concentrate on working WITH the people involved to improve things.

Treat AGA with some respect, and convince them that providing a better service and fixing issues is beneficial to them in the long run. Listen to them to learn about what they can and can't do, and the reasons why, and their longer term aspirations.

Then when you can find some middle ground, make it clear that while working with them, you'll also be watching them and keeping them in check.

When we had a local rail users group here, it tried to work with the operator and encourage things like adopting stations and getting local users to help contribute to keeping the station tidy (including putting in flower pots etc). Sadly, the person running that was too busy with other work commitments and it sort of died, but that's a far better way than working with people that set up stupid websites and post xenophobic nonsense, or moan about a train having dust building up in areas most passengers don't even see.

Trust me, I (and others) are trying to help you even if you see it as a series of personal attacks.

Totally agree with this Jon. I really hope the user group is a success and wish them good luck. But in its current format I fear it will fail. You can't expect to have dialogue with businesses you slate daily on social media over silly little issues. (I agree some of these issues should not occur, but they need to be approached in a different way).
 

Greenback

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Totally agree with this Jon. I really hope the user group is a success and wish them good luck. But in its current format I fear it will fail. You can't expect to have dialogue with businesses you slate daily on social media over silly little issues. (I agree some of these issues should not occur, but they need to be approached in a different way).

I agree as well. Jon has spoken a lot of sense.
 

jon0844

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I also hope you'll see how I'm comparing this with UKIP and that it's not to be taken literally, although that said the person on Twitter today certainly had a lot of anger simply because the company is headquartered in Holland.
 

Wayneh

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All views here will be taken into account week after next when we meet again.

Thanks for views. In a diverse group and twitter there are many different viewpoints and responses. It is our role to sort out the best approach and work with it.

Stakeholders are many. I would recommemd using the Mendalow stakeholder power interest matrix and employing that approach to them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Think you will agree we/I cant regulate Twitter posts.

I do not agree with xenophobia or bad lamguage.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Even language.
Damn 321s bouncing.
 

hassaanhc

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Just seen some photos on Twitter this morning with the worn seat coverings on the 360s. There's also a photo of a kid with his feet up on them.

It was pointed out that feet on seats causes far more wear, and within a matter of minutes we were on to rants about paying £5k a year and all that money going to Holland.

This is the sort of nonsense we're talking about here.

Yes, worn seats are an issue.. but there's a clear hatred that is extraordinary. To turn worn seats into a rant about a Dutch company taking all the money from commuters is just, erm, bizarre.

And they know that 360s are to shortly get replacement seat coverings, which cannot all be done at the same time if they don't want services to be cancelled as as result. Yes I know they have got in a disgraceful condition, but now is not the time to keep going on about them when plans have been made clear.
 

SPADTrap

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With respect to all those who mention it but 360s are not exactly in a disgraceful condition - needing TLC yes (seat covers all you got to complain about?! You lucky lot!) emotive language like that is just over the top and extremely tiresome.
 
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nesw

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The strange thing is that the people who attended the first meeting of the group are mentioned on Dan Collins' blog. Twitter handles also given.
http://dcabellioga.blogspot.co.uk/2015/01/east-anglia-passenger-voice-is-go.html

There's also his interpretation of the group aims & a mention of minutes being published "when Wayne has emailed them to me".

I had a brief look at 24 hours of tweets to AGA & it looks like @delayed_again posts as often as the TOC themselves. The account owner & others who post on the account appear to have a knack of turning positive to negative. As an example, they find it odd that there's currently only one MK3 that's been refreshed (full rake due by end of April) and have decided it's "a cheap and nasty job". I have it on good authority that the refresh has been well received.
 

hassaanhc

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With respect to all those who mention it but 360s are not exactly in a disgraceful condition - needing TLC yes (seat covers all you got to complain about?! You lucky lot!) emotive language like that is just over the top and extremely tiresome.

Sorry, wrong choice of word there on my part :oops: even if they're more worn than stock of similar-aged and older interiors. I don't mind the covers really, they're better than other stuff you can sometimes find on public transport :) was just annoyed with their constant posts on them.
 

Wayneh

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I personally was there having convened it.

Will be there until Anglia railway improves.

How can it, as a personal high blood pressure sufferer who had a stroke in 2001, increase blood pressure to see people trying to improve things?

Unless there other motives?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Have a good weekend all friends and foes.

I teaching Msc. Have fun
 

SPADTrap

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Sorry, wrong choice of word there on my part :oops: even if they're more worn than stock of similar-aged and older interiors. I don't mind the covers really, they're better than other stuff you can sometimes find on public transport :) was just annoyed with their constant posts on them.

Sorry that wasn't supposed to sound like an attack on you, I just happened to use the same word! :) I agree with what you were saying :D
 

dk1

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I personally was there having convened it.

Will be there until Anglia railway improves.

How can it, as a personal high blood pressure sufferer who had a stroke in 2001, increase blood pressure to see people trying to improve things?

It's the constant sarcasm that I personally get sick of. If I even saw one compliment from certain tweeters I would probably show some respect & be more understanding. After 30yrs working this route nothing really changes apart from the hot air.
 

EssexCommuter

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Well said EC.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Well said EC.

I am indifferent on minutes being released. But ECs view prevailed.

This is a democratic group.

I think once the group is fully underway, there should be no problems with minutes being released.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
No I mean RPI's (Revenue protection inspectors). Are you saying that you support them being referred to as the "Gestapo"? The only people who need to be in anyway concerned about RPI's are people who do not have valid tickets.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


And what culture is this? Where on earth are you getting this from?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


So why are your group referring to RPI's as the "Gestapo" then?

What do you mean by the "group"?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If EC saying we agreed to keep minutes private and me saying I am abivalent on the issue is like UKIP, I suspect your credibility is damaged.

I have never met a group of 10 people in any environment who all agree on everything.

We are attempted to improve the situation in Anglia.

If people here are desperate to know what is happening come and look for yourselves.

I'd like to confirm I am not against the minutes being released per se, absolutely not. The group has nothing to hide. The privacy aspect is in relation to attendants. Minutes list attendees, and everyone is entitled to privacy. If we can disclose the minutes without attendees, I have no problem.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The strange thing is that the people who attended the first meeting of the group are mentioned on Dan Collins' blog. Twitter handles also given.
http://dcabellioga.blogspot.co.uk/2015/01/east-anglia-passenger-voice-is-go.html

There's also his interpretation of the group aims & a mention of minutes being published "when Wayne has emailed them to me".

I had a brief look at 24 hours of tweets to AGA & it looks like @delayed_again posts as often as the TOC themselves. The account owner & others who post on the account appear to have a knack of turning positive to negative. As an example, they find it odd that there's currently only one MK3 that's been refreshed (full rake due by end of April) and have decided it's "a cheap and nasty job". I have it on good authority that the refresh has been well received.

What is this good authority? What did they say?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
People have different views, always. However there is no denying that the lines run by AGA need a lot of improvement.

The network fails, the trains fail. Let's not compare to everyone else, but campaign for our own area.

It really is that simple. AGA provides a net return to the government so we deserve some back.
 

samuelmorris

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As much as there are valid points on either side, the 'wonky seats and dusty floors' argument has blown way out of proportion and really detracts from the main issue. As poor as it may be to have dirty rolling stock inside and out, if it were such that the GEML offered c2c levels of punctuality (putting aside any infrastructural reasons why that TOC is more punctual for a moment) and c2c did not, but the GEML had much dirtier trains, you'd see me using the GEML as often as possible. Even though it gives a bad first impression, sub-par upkeep of the rolling stock is only actually an issue when it affects the service by units failing due to mechanical/electrical/whatever defects.

I've been logging the services I've used since the start of the year and intend to compile them if ever I get home from work at a reasonable hour this month! That's nothing to do with train punctuality, I simply have a lot on. However, from what I can recall at present, I have had one 25 minute delay and one 15 minute delay since the start of 2015. The remainder are all mostly 5-6 minutes or less and furthermore, a fair proportion of my journeys are on time. As many as 90%? possibly not, but out of around 50 journeys into and out of London, the majority of which carried out on the GEML - some on the fast lines, some on the slow lines, only two have been substantially delayed, and most wouldn't have impacted any onward connections. The only real problem is if you are connecting with low frequency tube services and have a tight connection you routinely miss due to East Anglian trains very often running 3-5 minutes late. It's annoying and it shouldn't be necessary, but you can just leave home 10 minutes earlier. Major 30+ minute delays that cause severe disruption to my day are still pretty rare on the Liverpool Street line and always have been. Again, some good reasons for why, but what I neglected to mention in my comments during the inaugural meeting was that I find the punctuality of Thameslink considerably worse. Fortunately I tend only to use the line in the core section, but if I used that line for a daily commute for considerable distance, I'd be impressed with AGA's punctuality.
The routine small delays, occasional long delays, dirty rolling stock, ageing fleet, high fares and minimal investment all add up to a grim picture but individually they aren't huge issues. There's a lot that can be done to improve services in the region but tact is absolutely essential. Personally speaking I'm still not happy with the website design or content. I almost think it should be ditched entirely and rebuilt with straightforward info, rather than blog posts. Personal blogs from disgruntled commuters are fine and helpful data, but for the passenger voice group as a whole - I'd much prefer to see a cleaner, simpler site, devoid of Abellio-style branding, simply referencing issues as they are without opinions, or use of phrases like 'filth infested rust bucket' - we might all think it, but it's not language you'd use in a letter to an MP, which is effectively what this site is to be. There is a lot more to professionalism in the cause than just not swearing at TOC staff. I consider the website to be pretty fundamental to this idea if it's ever to take off, so I will draft up some ideas for the next meeting.
 
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jon0844

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The group has nothing to hide. The privacy aspect is in relation to attendants. Minutes list attendees, and everyone is entitled to privacy. If we can disclose the minutes without attendees, I have no problem.

Okay, that's a valid argument.

Surely that just means someone strips out personal details and publishes a detailed summary instead?
 

chubs

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I agree, publish the minutes but with the attendees personal details removed. Id say MP's names should remain in, as this is part of their job. Same goes for the NR and GA senior managements comments at these meetings, assuming they agree.

samuelmorris makes an excellent point as well to be honest. Use the current website to snipe all you want and post silly blog posts, and have a separate PROFESSIONAL website that has a respectable name and clearly and concisely lists your aims and objectives, when you meet, how to get in touch etc.
 

Dave1987

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What do you mean by the "group"?

There is a blog post on your website that refers to the "Abellio Gestapo". As this is posted on your website we must assume your group condone this language. How on earth can you possibly expect to be taken seriously when that is the kind of content your members are creating?
 

dosxuk

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I'd like to confirm I am not against the minutes being released per se, absolutely not. The group has nothing to hide. The privacy aspect is in relation to attendants. Minutes list attendees, and everyone is entitled to privacy. If we can disclose the minutes without attendees, I have no problem.

It's pretty normal for groups to release a "censored" version of minutes, with personal / financial / legal information redacted from the publicly available document. It's common in these cases that people are referred to by initials (which don't have to be based on their names), including in attendance lists.
 

Wayneh

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It is also common that a privately run business does not release information that may be useful for the organisation they are formed to analyse

Join in to know more. Otherwise sit on the sidelines.

Your choice.
 

dosxuk

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It is also common that a privately run business does not release information that may be useful for the organisation they are formed to analyse

Those businesses aren't normally trying to engage the public to join them though.

Besides, surely the aim of this "business" is to get the organisation to make changes. If you're all complaining about something and they fix it as a result of reading your minutes, surely that's a good thing? (Unless of course you're not bothered about fixes, just getting rid of the problem...) Provided your meetings are held in a responsible, productive and constructive manner, I can't think of anything you could put in a set of minutes that would result in a worse passenger experience after AGA read them.
 

jon0844

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It is also common that a privately run business does not release information that may be useful for the organisation they are formed to analyse.

That doesn't make sense, unless you're discussing things at the meeting that could land you in trouble.

I mean, if you're talking about setting up a group of users on social media to bombard the company with complaints, deliberately cause damage before taking photos, or a plan to goad staff until they react in a negative way, then - yes - you'd keep that quiet. That would be because the sole ambition is to get AGA stripped of the franchise, not actually get a better service.

I assume (hope) you're not doing any of that, so there's nothing to hide. You're supposedly coming up with proposals to improve a service, so AGA and others should be able to see it and comment if they see fit.

What do you think AGA is going to do by seeing your proposals?
 
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samuelmorris

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I don't wish to put words in people's mouths but I would say the general view amongst the group from the impression I got is that most of us think Abellio have had long enough to show some interest in improving the franchise and in the three years they've had since takeover it just hasn't happened. To that end, I think the desired improvements are more addressed to 'the new franchise holder' which may or may not be Abellio, but quite a few of us are hoping it won't be. I concede that using the carrot of a long-term franchise (which of course if it goes too sour could still be stripped from them as per-Connex) would help alleviate some of the 'status quo, minimal investment' mentality currently exhibited, but without actually putting that into practice you're not going to know for sure.

I would sincerely hope as you do that the photos of, for example, the dismantled seats, are not staged - given that they come from various people I don't think that they are. All that being said, with a lot of the units in question, you can simply put the seat back where it belongs and sit on it safely - this almost exclusively seems to affect 317s which I don't travel on often, so I'll bow to regular users of the units to comment on that.

I've just finished my spreadsheet of 2015's (so far) rail travel and have come out with an average delay figure for AGA of 2 minutes and 25 seconds, across 42 journies. Of these, 83% were 'on time' by national rules (<5 minute delay) and 45% were 'right time' (<1 minute delay). Personally I think both those figures, as they sit there, are disgraceful. That said, if my average delay is less than 3 minutes, is it as big a deal as the statistics suggest? After all, none of those delayed journies have been severe enough to be eligible for delay repay (even disregarding the fact they're almost all oyster journies)
Contextually, this is probably important as every line I use on AGA is served by 6tph or above. Where cancellations lead to half-hour waits, it's much more of an issue, and I'd be interested to see some personal stats on those commuting from more than the 20 miles outside London I am. I gather this is where most of the more disgruntled members of the group come from.

Almost all of the images on the twitter feed are of shabby trains, not of examples of delayed journies (so are those I've posted FWIW, but I tend only to tweet the most noticeable examples, and I'm rarely delayed badly enough to warrant tweeting about it!) The latter is orders of magnitude more important, but the former is far less difficult. I think perhaps the mentality is, 'if they can't even keep the trains clean & tidy, that would explain why they break so often' - in which case, perhaps one of the most important (and hopefully manageable) improvements to punctuality may also affect the passenger travel experience.
 

jon0844

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The heating in one carriage of the 317 demonstrator was faulty. A member of train presentation staff went through and recommended people move down. I thought that was very nice.

I reported the carriage number to AGA via Twitter so it will be interesting to see if it is fixed. Most likely just a faulty thermostat.

I could easily have said something nasty and implied that one cold carriage equals a company not fit to run trains. Plenty of others seem to be doing that. It's obviously not exclusive to AGA, but there do seem to be a group of usual suspects desperate to attack every single day.

Seat bases on 317s and 321s have been coming off for years. They're incredibly easy to lift off. Even the seat backs aren't too hard to do. You'll even see 365s affected from time to time. It's not poor maintenance but simply people messing about, or catching them when they go to put their feet up on the seats.
 

samuelmorris

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I've had seat backs off by standing up on 315s, 456s and 465s. It shouldn't happen but rather than complain about it I just put them back. If I find a seat broken in such a manner it's not usable, however, that's different. One of the examples I like to cite is that a picture was posted a while back on that twitter feed showing a 315 seat cover having been launched onto the track by someone, sitting between the tracks. I mean, seriously? No amount of TOC negligence causes that.

Despite this, though, the condition of first class in general on the 317s looks appalling. I wonder why people bother with first class on the TOC really, unless it's very nice on the 379s and they're just gambling on what turns up to run the services.
 
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