Great Western Electrification Progress

[HSTEd]

It is in the nature of commuter rail systems to branch and branch as they get further away from the city centre until you're left with 2tph or less. A naive look at number of carriages per hour on a section of track would make you think that it wouldn't be worth wiring up these sections. However, if you only wire up the trunk, every single train would have to carry around a diesel engine anyway, significantly reducing the value of the electrified section.

But carrying around a diesel engine is not really a major disadvantage.
Indeed every single IEP manufactured will be issued with at least one diesel engine. If they were such a horrible handicap I doubt that would be the direction we are moving in.

This reduction in value is reasonable on busy mainline routes like the GWML where bi-modes off of the very long rural branches will then need to act as high-capacity units on the mainline core. On a branching suburban network the additional weight, cost and complexity of bi-modes has to be considered against the idea of just saving the money on electrifying the trunk in the first place, as you could plausibly run the entire network unelectrified and save the capital cost of doing anything.

But the advantage in the suburban case is that large parts of the suburban network is already electrified. It also avoids the argument that diesel engine pollution will not be tolerated in busy city centres - because there will be no diesel engines running in said city centres.
The bi-mode has no greater capital requirement than a modern DMU - the additional traction costs apparently are dropping to zero judging by the way that railways that have embraced electrodiesels appear to be doing so almost to the exclusion of pure diesel traction.


I'm arguing that you can have a mixed electric/bi-mode fleet, but that's only possible if you use bi-modes sparingly on branch line routes alone. With the argument you had above, you wouldn't be able to have any electric-only units, as eventually every line gets to the point where electrification isn't worth it.

Look at it. It's an unelectrified suburban route connecting two important electrified areas. It has closely spaced stops and is a feeder route into a major city.

It's an unelectrified suburban route connecting two entirely incompatible electrified areas.
It requires something north of 50 route kilometres to be electrified, which will translate to something north of £200m at current prices.
It will either require dual voltage units to operate or necessitate some slightly problematic earthing works in Southport that will likely hike the budget even higher.
To be honest if ORR and NR hadn't decided that third rail was verboten it would be a perfect scheme, at least west of Wigan - low traffic density extension of existing territory and impractical for 25kV at the present time for cost reasons.

Do you really think you can justify spending two hundred million or more pounds to avoid a couple of million pounds on rolling stock [which is what it would cost to buy electrodiesels instead of pure electrics] and then the cost of buying diesel for those unelectrified route kilometres which are lightly trafficked anyway?

The reason why electrification isn't currently planned for it is that then there wouldn't be a balance across Manchester, so services would have to inefficiently terminate in the city centre rather than running through.

A problem that would not exist if you purchased electrodiesels.
And once you have those electrodiesels then you have to look to see whether or not you can justify wiring those specific route kilometres. And I don't think you can.

It's like the Whifflet Line up in Glasgow, which has now been successfully folded into the electrified Argyle Line network despite having only a 2tph short DMU service beforehand. Wiring it up gave another electrified diversionary route for mainline traffic (the Whifflet wiring was designed for 11-car Pendolinos).

But this line is nowhere near being suitable as a diversion route, it doesn't even really go anywhere.
And you can try doubling the service density first and see if anything happens.
If the electrification to Moels Cop and the branch line to Crossens hadn't been abandoned you would be in significantly better shape - but it has been.

Electric operation of a bi-mode set is not a tick-box exercise, and using the wires only after Salford Central would be a pointless tick-box exercise. At that point, you may as well just run a mechanical DMU all the way.

Assuming mechanical/hydraulic DMUs are actually significantly cheaper - which remains to be seen.
Additionally it avoids pollution in the city centre from diesel operation - which is an important political context.
If the additional cost of bi-modes is small then there is little reason not to use it.

A diesel engine that doesn't exist needs even less maintenance than one that's used half of the time.

But these nonexisting diesel engines have to be purchased at enormous cost.

ICEC's fleet does thousands of route miles each day, covering an amount of track which would be totally unfeasible to electrify quickly within the age of the trains. The suburban network around Manchester or another Northern city is a different issue altogether.

So it will take more than 30 years to electrify to Aberdeen, Hull and Lincoln?
If that is the case we might as well give up and go home.

 

[Groningen]

I see on Google Streetview from September that the works have made it to Didcot. 1 Town later (Steventon) and there nothing has changed.

 

[Class 170101]

Well the existance of the Stadler units demonstrate that bi-modes are apparently economic with relatively little electric operation.

I'm not holding my breath on that one if rumours are to be believed they do less fuel miles than current UK DMUs.

 

[fgwrich]

So, going back to the original point of this thread. Does anyone have anything else to report on this weeks activities? I know that there are 3 nights of on going piling work with the HOPS between Swindon / Chippenham & Thingley Junction.

And although not connected to the main Electrification Project as such, there is a bridge replacement currently being undertaken on the Basingstoke - Reading line near Bramley.

 

[Hellzapoppin]

A3102 bridge Wootton Bassett demolished and recon started. 20 piles in Patchway area, HOPs installed 20 ish, ATF utx installed in Thingley, ATF cable installation around Wootton Bassett/Dauntsey area.

 

[snowball]

A3102 bridge Wootton Bassett demolished and recon started. 20 piles in Patchway area, HOPs installed 20 ish, ATF utx installed in Thingley, ATF cable installation around Wootton Bassett/Dauntsey area.

utx??

 

[Elecman]

Under track crossing, a ducted route installedvundervthectracks for passing cables from 1 side of the tracks to the other.

 

[Hellzapoppin]

Actually HOPS installed 40 piles.

 

[bastien]

3. Don't over spec the design. Are we actually ever going to see 140 mph? Do we need such large structures? Is it really necessary to have the high wire tensions over such a short wire run compared to elsewhere in the country?

Also - why does the section from, say, Box Tunnel to Temple Meads and up to Parkway even need 140mph-standard Series 1 kit? It's 100mph tops round that way, so surely you could wire it with the Mk3 equipment (not to mention that slimmer masts might placate the Bath lot).

Was the idea that doing everything with the High Output train would provide an economy of scale?

Edit - ditto Didcot - Oxford, Reading - Basingstoke, Severn Tunnel - Swansea.

 

[jimm]

The long term price of oil is fixed by the operating price of the swing supplier - which for the next couple of decades will be American Light Tight Oil.

And that is going to be something like $50-60/bbl.
And getting cheaper. Tar sands might even become the swing supplier with SAGD becoming economic about $60.

So you do have a crystal ball...

I suppose that back at the end of the 1990s, when crude - wherever it came from - was bumping along well below 20 dollars a barrel, your infallible prediction mechanism was telling you it would be up at 140 dollars a barrel by 2008... and you are now a multi-billionaire tax exile, having made a killing on oil futures.

Stuff happens. And when it does, you can forget all about swing suppliers and 'long-term' anything.

One of the key driving forces behind the Swiss rail electrification programme in the 1920s and 1930s was the cost and difficulty of obtaining reliable coal supplies for steam locos during the first world war, with France and Germany's mines having other priorities at the time (and the fact that the Germans had occupied a lot of the French mining regions).

 

[jimm]

I see on Google Streetview from September that the works have made it to Didcot. 1 Town later (Steventon) and there nothing has changed.

Yes - because it is a difficult location with a level crossing and a listed road bridge.

Network Rail wanted to shut the level crossing and demolish the bridge and replace it with a new structure. More recently they were talking about lowering the track under the bridge to create headroom for the overhead wires - hence the lack of work on the overhead in the area.

It now looks as though the bridge may well be facing demolition again. Oxfordshire Country Council is going to discuss a compulsory purchase of land in connection with replacement of the bridge at its cabinet meeting on January 24. No detail available of what they have in mind yet.

http://mycouncil.oxfordshire.gov.uk/mgIssueHistoryHome.aspx?IId=19167&PlanId=215

 

[Chris125]

Apparently wiring/energising platforms 1&2 at Paddington has been cancelled for this Christmas.

Looking at these photos from Network Rail I think it's safe to say that the work is going ahead, they've removed the section of footbridge above the tracks:

https://twitter.com/networkrail/status/813689689605541888

 

[jimm]

Various pics from Wootton Bassett and other locations at Network Rail's Great Western Twitter feed, including small part steelwork installation at Reading and foundation pits for electrification being dug at Swindon and Twyford

https://twitter.com/networkrailwest

 

[HSTEd]

Stuff happens. And when it does, you can forget all about swing suppliers and 'long-term' anything.

One of the key driving forces behind the Swiss rail electrification programme in the 1920s and 1930s was the cost and difficulty of obtaining reliable coal supplies for steam locos during the first world war, with France and Germany's mines having other priorities at the time (and the fact that the Germans had occupied a lot of the French mining regions).

I am all for total electrification for just the reasons you state - why do you think I keep proposing ways to reduce the cost of electrification, see the thread I just started in this forum for one thing.
But I am not the person making the investment decisions.
And these are the arguments that will kill rail electrification.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I am all for total electrification for just the reasons you state - why do you think I keep proposing ways to reduce the cost of electrification, see the thread I just started in this forum for one thing.
But I am not the person making the investment decisions.
And these are the arguments that will kill rail electrification.

It's just politics. The government had had a good kicking from the Public Accounts Committee about electrification costs and is gradually becoming more embarrassed by the situation at GTR. So right now it's feeling somewhat anti-rail. Remember the saying: "a week is a long time in politics"? The time will come, and it may not be too far away, when other issues change that view, such as the commitments to reduce carbon output, especially given the go-ahead for Heathrow's third runway, or environmental protection from harmful diesel pollutants. Before you know it electrification will suddenly seem like a good idea again. Just the usual disconnect between parliamentary terms and the time needed to deliver infrastructure developments. And the tendency for "nationalised" organisations (ie Network Rail) to build expensive empires.

In the meantime a slowdown in electrification might help to reduce the pressure, if only marginally, on the nation's electricity generating capacity while we sort out our power stations.

 

[Nippy]

Looking at these photos from Network Rail I think it's safe to say that the work is going ahead, they've removed the section of footbridge above the tracks:

https://twitter.com/networkrail/status/813689689605541888

Yes the wiring may be going ahead, the energisation isn't.

 

[HowardGWR]

Yes - because it is a difficult location with a level crossing and a listed road bridge.

Network Rail wanted to shut the level crossing and demolish the bridge and replace it with a new structure. More recently they were talking about lowering the track under the bridge to create headroom for the overhead wires - hence the lack of work on the overhead in the area.

It now looks as though the bridge may well be facing demolition again. Oxfordshire County Council is going to discuss a compulsory purchase of land in connection with replacement of the bridge at its cabinet meeting on January 24. No detail available of what they have in mind yet.

http://mycouncil.oxfordshire.gov.uk/mgIssueHistoryHome.aspx?IId=19167&PlanId=215

One hopes that Steventon will not become the critical path, but the information about OCC (thanks for the link) make me, as an ex-project leader, shudder.

One senior member (at least) of the GWML implementation team should be totally devoted to ensuring that every obstacle, capable of being dreamt up by local government officers (it's not their problem remember), or anyone else, is removed.

 

[Taunton]

Yes - because it [Steventon] is a difficult location with a level crossing and a listed road bridge.

Network Rail wanted to shut the level crossing and demolish the bridge and replace it with a new structure. More recently they were talking about lowering the track under the bridge to create headroom for the overhead wires - hence the lack of work on the overhead in the area.

It now looks as though the bridge may well be facing demolition again. Oxfordshire Country Council is going to discuss a compulsory purchase of land in connection with replacement of the bridge at its cabinet meeting on January 24.

You have to wonder how the project can have got so far down the way and NR are still shilly-shallying about how to do the basic design.

The overbridge, plain brick, doesn't appear to have any particular merit. However just to its west are not one but two level crossings, in a built-up area on both sides of the line. Such crossings surely have no place on a 140mph railway (what the catenary is expensively reinforced to take) and must be in a major risk assessment category.

 

[HowardGWR]

You have to wonder how the project can have got so far down the way and NR are still shilly-shallying about how to do the basic design.

The overbridge, plain brick, doesn't appear to have any particular merit. However just to its west are not one but two level crossings, in a built-up area on both sides of the line. Such crossings surely have no place on a 140mph railway (what the catenary is expensively reinforced to take) and must be in a major risk assessment category.

Not only that, but the whole trajectory needs to be future-proofed for 4 tracking from Didcot to Wootton Bassett. There is room.

 

[Taunton]

Not only that, but the whole trajectory needs to be future-proofed for 4 tracking from Didcot to Wootton Bassett. There is room.

There is adequate room in the railway formation generally, but houses come right up to the line on both sides of the western crossing.

Do I remember that these crossings at Steventon caused some problem and delay when 125mph HST services were introduced in 1975?

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.6...4!1suioXLAOaeBEDUIbCtqPePQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

[edwin_m]

Doesn't the constant wire height apparently being specified for the GW scheme mean it can't have any level crossings anyway?

 

[Thatcham Xing]

Doesn't the constant wire height apparently being specified for the GW scheme mean it can't have any level crossings anyway?

If that's the case, someone had better work out pretty quick what's going to be happen in my home town (where there are 2) and one just up the tracks at Midgham.

 

[Taunton]

The "left hand doesn't know what right hand is doing" at NR about the Steventon crossings seems reflected in this recent news from Steventon Parish Council, notably in the opening paragraphs.

http://www.steventon.info/Railway.html

You have to wonder how could accurate project cost estimates have possibly been prepared given this lack of knowing what was to be done (presumably reflected project-wide).

 

[leomartin125]

According to a mate of mine who has recently been down to Reading after the Christmas Engineering Works, Platforms 13 and 14 are now wired, which is good porgress. Pictures available in link:

https://flic.kr/p/QoQnFA

 

[Taunton]

According to a mate of mine who has recently been down to Reading after the Christmas Engineering Works, Platforms 13 and 14 are now wired, which is good progress.

Just two platforms with wires up? That seems more like the glacial progress, which this project has become renowned for. All this micro-division of the various steps, all the reporting of "piles installed" (and that was typically not many) over the past YEARS, as if that was somehow a key achievement.

What will next Christmas shutdown bring for Reading? Another two platforms wired?

 

[steverailer]

Just two platforms with wires up? That seems more like the glacial progress, which this project has become renowned for. All this micro-division of the various steps, all the reporting of "piles installed" (and that was typically not many) over the past YEARS, as if that was somehow a key achievement.

What will next Christmas shutdown bring for Reading? Another two platforms wired?

Reading station will take a while, not exactly a simple location is it !!!! just look at the amount of crossovers and points in that picture alone! And remember that they will probably have to wire a section of each turn out, whether they are getting full wiring or not to cover wrong routing of the trains.

 

[QueensCurve]

It's about 15 years since ATOC/RDG said passengers couldn't tell the difference between diesel and electric trains...

Passengers certainly notice the noise and vibration of a high power diesel generator throbbing away under the floor. They will be suffering more of this because of the perfect storm of factors which have killed electrification.

 

[76020]

According to a mate of mine who has recently been down to Reading after the Christmas Engineering Works, Platforms 13 and 14 are now wired, which is good porgress. Pictures available in link:

https://flic.kr/p/QoQnFA

I went through Reading station yesterday and yes, Platforms 13 & 14 are now wired, the wiring stops just east of the station, I cannot comment on the west side of the station as it caught me out as I was not looking, all change for London via Waterloo was the prime concern!, but it does not go nowhere near the eastern end of the test section.
The whole area around Reading Station is nearly ready for wiring so I would expect to see a lot work being done here in the near future
When I travelled down to Bristol last week I could not see any gaps in the wiring from Airport Junction to just west of Maidenhead, apart from maybe points and crossings and as a bonus about a mile west of Maidenhead the first wiring between Maidenhead and Twyford is installed on the up relief, the support arms are installed from Maidenhead to about half way to Twyford.
On my return journey yesterday, I noticed there has been more piling in the Chippenham and Swindon areas, between Thingley Junction and Wootton Bassett, I would say 35% of the piling is complete and about 60 masts are up.
From Swindon to Didcot, apart from the Steventon gap I would say about 85% of the steel sticks are now up.
So it is progressing and some electric trains will start running next year, at last!

 

[HowardGWR]

Passengers certainly notice the noise and vibration of a high power diesel generator throbbing away under the floor. They will be suffering more of this because of the perfect storm of factors which have killed electrification.

We still don't have evidence that any electrification project, let alone GWML, is 'killed', only delayed. I don't count a few gash rumours in Modern Railways as evidence. The GWML project is delayed because available funding has been used up too soon due to bad estimating and planning, and then the fact that neither Oxford nor Bristol Councils have a firm end-plan for the station designs, yet. 2020 has been mentioned. The four tracking to Filton is going ahead and the resignalling for Bristol is being completed, AIUI.

If anyone has official notice that the above is untrue, please post it.

 

[snowball]

We still don't have evidence that any electrification project, let alone GWML, is 'killed', only delayed. I don't count a few gash rumours in Modern Railways as evidence.

Hull is officially described as dropped, but that doesn't mean it will never be revived. Might be a couple of CPs though.

It should be pointed out that it was never committed for anything beyond GRIP 3 in the first place. I'm not sure whether that has been completed, or is continuing, or has been put on ice incomplete.