Great Western Electrification Progress

[QueensCurve]

Why does it cost so much more then.

I have no idea why.

 

[superkev]

Why does it cost so much more then.

I lot of people have puzzled over the huge costs of project's these days.
My personal view is something on the lines of Fred Donna's idea of 20 suits to every man with a spanner. Modern red tape must represent a huge overhead.
Not a good omen for any more schemes. Pity I thought they seemed to be at last getting it together.
K

 

[superkev]

Looks like the government understandably have lost faith in network rail and its suppliers.
Pity as they seemed to me to be starting to get there act together.
K

 

[Richard_B]

Possibly not, on reflection. Surely not HMG slipping out bad news whilst everyone is waiting to see what happens over the pond..............

It's called taking out the trash. Throw out the bad news either on a Friday at 5pm or when everyone is looking elsewhere. They've done it with the benefit cap taking effect yesterday too. It's 'good' politics, if shameless.

The real problem isn't going to be IEP struggling up one or more banks, it's gonna be the delays to diesels being cascaded, and then delays to the MML which will probably happen now and consequent delays to the cascades there too.

 

[ScotGG]

Why does it cost so much more then.

Consultants fees, lack of skills as little long term planning, very high land costs in UK compared to similar developed nations (this causes all sorts of issues across the UK) very onerous health and safety meaning over-engineering.

All mean very high costs and often little getting done to the detriment of infrastructure and living standards across the country.

 

[pdeaves]

Can the bi-modes switch between mode without stopping?

Yes, they can.

 

[Carlisle]

Looks like the government understandably have lost faith in network rail and its suppliers.

Probably right now it'll be the rail industry as a whole given the delays, rising costs, lengthy industrial disputes etc

 

[Dai Corner]

"This train has been cancelled between Bristol Temple Meads and Swindon due to a problem with the Diesel engines"

 

[3141]

Looks like the government understandably have lost faith in network rail and its suppliers.
Pity as they seemed to me to be starting to get there act together.
K

Probably true that NR were starting to get their act together, but presumably not fast enough, and apparently costs are continuing to rise - or maybe not coming under control - to the extent that what Sir Peter Hendy thought would be affordable twelve months ago isn't affordable now.

Having read Roger Ford in the latest Modern Railways I think NR have probably killed off the prospects of much more electrification by making it too expensive. Doing that at a time when oil prices were relatively low was a huge mistake.

I don't see many benefits from brexit, but perhaps one will be that we no longer need to increase clearances for live OHLE in order to meet European specifications, and can avoid the extra costs that has contributed to this mess.

 

[a_c_skinner]

Is it too late to make all the GWR new stock the higher powered class 802?

Andrew

 

[A0]

Didn't something like that affect Cambridge back in the late 1970s/ early 1980s? Electrification as far as Royston, but a DMU shuttle beyond that.

I believe that was a bit of BR politicking.

The problem was both routes to Cambridge had only been partially electrified to Bishops Stortford and Royston respectively.

BR Eastern Region were concerned that IF they had pushed to Cambridge on the GN route when that was done it would mean Bishops Stortford - Cambridge wouldn't get done. Hence both were held back until the late 80s, when the GE route was done first and then the GN as a minor infill.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The original GN suburban electrification (1978) was indeed only to Royston.
However the route was not the primary Cambridge route then, and it carried nothing like today's traffic.
Royston-Shepreth was done at the same time (1988) as the GE Bishops Stortford-Cambridge line, and on to King's Lynn (1992).

Erm - the bit in bold isn't quite true.

There were through trains from KGX to Cambridge pre electrification including the Cambridge Buffet Expresses. The result of electrification only to Royston was that Cambridge lost its through services to Kings Cross for over 10 years.

 

[Dave1987]

Is it too late to make all the GWR new stock the higher powered class 802?

Andrew

Yup! The mad train service availability agreement the government signed means it's entirely up to the companies that have financed the fleet as to whether the engines are allowed to be uprated to full commercial power, Agility trains west asked the question but the companies weren't interested. With their very complicated and expensive deal the DFT firmly backed themselves into a corner all because they wanted very very high reliability demands met. It's costing a serious amount of cash to have all of the electric only IEP fleet converted to bi-modes.

 

[freetoview33]

The reason it's more pathetic is that Filton Bank and Bristol to Bath have had a lot of work done ready and are ready to do!

 

[tbtc]

What a surprise! I said quite a while ago that bi-modes give the powers that be a great excuse to delay electrification schemes, and was told that wouldn't happen. Seems like it's happening already!

Well if one was being very cynical you could view it as the government have got their new super expensive trains for their Tory heartlands to keep them happy so cancelling/delaying/deferring whatever you want to call it isn't going to be politically damaging so it probably wasn't a difficult decision. Someone should be screaming at them to just get it done!

You’re complaining without offering any solution. What would you rather we’d done?

Ordered something like 390s which wouldn’t be able to get to Bristol/ Oxford without drags?

Kept the 125s sweating for another decade of squadron service?

Replaced current through services with London – Didcot shuttles (or London – Bristol Parkway shuttles)?

Really, the problem here is the infrastructure side of things – Network Rail seem to have been struggling for some time (hence the MML being postponed... though I don't think you can blame bi-modes for that?).

You’ve somehow managed to make this sound like it was the fault of the traction – whereas I see this as proof of the benefits of bi-mode – it means that we can still have new trains (regardless of the infrastructure delays).

The 800/801s are the one Good News story here – can’t blame them for Network Rail (or pretend that we’ve somehow cut back on electrification commitments

Whilst I understand the reasons behind not running into Oxford/ Bristol (since you can dump some of the electrification costs onto the project paying for remodelling/ resignalling etc), I’m surprised at the wires still going from Bristol Parkway to Cardiff – that’s a long way to go for two trains per hour which involves the complication of going under the Severn. Politically sensitive to be seen to cut electrification to Wales?

The problems now become "how does the lack of 165/166s affect DMU cascades around Bristol and subsequent cascades of Sprinters" and "will the Government trust the railway to deliver more infrastructure projects, given how much it is struggling to deliver things it committed to five years ago, and will spend most of CP6 doing what it had promised to do in CP5. Would you trust that railway with a bucket of cash for future schemes? I really hope we don't look back on these years as a wasted opportunity.

 

[ScotGG]

We are skint, end of, and up until now we havent really been determined to show it. I would have thought the more astute people on here would now have sussed that with Oxford gone that E-W knitting will soon go too. It also nails the coffin of electric spine firmly shut now I suspect.

Skint? Not really. Many poorer nations manage to build far more houses, electrify many more lines, build more stations etc. The UK managed more in very poor periods eg the 30s after the crash, 1950s austerity, 1970s when it went to the IMF.

It's a question of choice. Do you grow an economy and improve living standards through investment in infrastructure or not.

But the UK can increase foreign aid by £3 billion whilst France and Germany cut theirs, and whilst this country cuts transport spending by 35%. It can spend £25 billion each and every year on housing benefit (much going to private landlords who've bought up ex council homes) as housing and rents sky-rocket through a lack of building, but not use that money to build outright to lower long term costs to the taxpayer. The UK is spending lots of money, but in the right areas?

 

[3141]

Well if one was being very cynical you could view it as the government have got their new super expensive trains for their Tory heartlands to keep them happy so cancelling/delaying/deferring whatever you want to call it isn't going to be politically damaging so it probably wasn't a difficult decision. Someone should be screaming at them to just get it done!

One might say that but it's unrealistic. Slough, Reading Council, Bristol and South Wales aren't Tory heartlands.

 

[221129]

Whilst I understand the reasons behind not running into Oxford/ Bristol (since you can dump some of the electrification costs onto the project paying for remodelling/ resignalling etc), I’m surprised at the wires still going from Bristol Parkway to Cardiff – that’s a long way to go for two trains per hour which involves the complication of going under the Severn. Politically sensitive to be seen to cut electrification to Wales?

Given that the Severn Tunnel was recently closed causing great inconvenience for several weeks to allow for electrification works, it would be political suicide to cut that.

 

[Hellzapoppin]

The reason it's more pathetic is that Filton Bank and Bristol to Bath have had a lot of work done ready and are ready to do!

No they're not, there's still massive amounts of work to do before electrification.

 

[notlob.divad]

Given that the Severn Tunnel was recently closed causing great inconvenience for several weeks to allow for electrification works, it would be political suicide to cut that.

Would anyone be surprised if they got the wires to the tunnel and thus the Welsh border before back healing remaining costs to Cardiff onto the Welsh government?

 

[snowball]

Newbury must be considering itself lucky.

 

[HowardGWR]

I don't see many benefits from brexit, but perhaps one will be that we no longer need to increase clearances for live OHLE in order to meet European specifications, and can avoid the extra costs that has contributed to this mess.

My bold: Roger's point was that we never did need to meet the higher spec but that po-faced bureaucrats here did not encourage or support a derogation application. It should also be borne in mind that all these matters are agreed by all participating states. That's if they bother to read the proposals to which they are being asked to agree.

 

[snowball]

The main, long-standing, GW electrification thread is here:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=83452&page=222

 

[Astradyne]

So GWR looking for extra DMUS now

 

[221129]

So GWR looking for extra DMUS now

Not yet.

 

[The Planner]

Skint? Not really. Many poorer nations manage to build far more houses, electrify many more lines, build more stations etc. The UK managed more in very poor periods eg the 30s after the crash, 1950s austerity, 1970s when it went to the IMF.

It's a question of choice. Do you grow an economy and improve living standards through investment in infrastructure or not.

But the UK can increase foreign aid by £3 billion whilst France and Germany cut theirs, and whilst this country cuts transport spending by 35%. It can spend £25 billion each and every year on housing benefit (much going to private landlords who've bought up ex council homes) as housing and rents sky-rocket through a lack of building, but not use that money to build outright to lower long term costs to the taxpayer. The UK is spending lots of money, but in the right areas?

Not the UK, NR.

 

[HowardGWR]

No they're not, there's still massive amounts of work to do before electrification.

Indeed. We can all agree that there was no point going forward with mast-erection until the major civil engineering jobs, including rebuilding of Oxford and Bristol TM, were at a stage that made that possible. I think the worry is that it is these works that needed to come forward with as great an alacrity as possible. As they are not electrification jobs, they should not be subject to the same shortcomings as the electrics projects, and the latter are, AIUI, proceeding now, much more efficiently. Are we confident that the Oxford project has everyone in the local authorities and NR on board with an agreed final design? Our colleague Jimm will know more about that, I suspect.

 

[RichmondCommu]

The BBC are reporting that the project won't be completed until 2024. I wonder whether that is just London to Swansea or whether that includes all the deferred bits too.

 

[76020]

Quote:-These schemes paused will produce £146m to £165m in savings to be reinvested elsewhere, I may be wrong but doing the simple maths, is that all that Network Rail had left for the now paused parts of the GWR electrification?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The BBC are reporting that the project won't be completed until 2024. I wonder whether that is just London to Swansea or whether that includes all the deferred bits too.

That's just because CP6 is 2019-24, which is beyond the present government's planning horizon.
But nobody wanting to offer a new date is a bad sign.
CP6 content starts getting argued about next year, when NR puts up its initial plans.
We've also been repeatedly promised an updated Electrification RUS from Network Rail, but I doubt it would bear any scrutiny with all the recent tribulations.

 

[Robin1966]

Hi guys,

I've just seen this on the BBC site: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-37908735

"BBC transport correspondent Richard Westcott said: "[Network Rail] pinned their hopes on a new, multi-million pound factory train that digs the holes, puts up overhead wire supports, fills the holes with concrete and hangs the wires.

It was meant to put in 120 piles a week, but for a long time, I'm told, only managed about 30."

Any idea what this 'factory train' thing is? I'd like to know more about it and its failings...