Great Western Electrification Progress

[TheKnightWho]

If there is an Oxford-Bristol service at some point in the future, it will not be operated by inter-city stock, it will be a semi-fast worked by emus - preferably in conjunction with reopened stations at Wantage Road, Wootton Bassett and Corsham.

And they were not 'stories', many of the services while the Turbo service was running were very lightly loaded, largely because of its 90mph top speed - bar the Oxford-Didcot leg, all the journeys that could be made using it could be done faster on an HST and no one ever came up with the money to build those intermediate stations, which should have swiftly followed the service's launch.

I don't doubt that they were true - I'm saying that they may not apply anymore. That's a big difference. Certainly I think Oxford-Swindon traffic may be profitable if it becomes a regular thing.

Regarding stock, I could see Intercity stock being used on a Bristol-Bedford route, so I don't think assuming semi-fast stock and new stations having to be built is necessarily the case either. In fact, it strikes me as very pessimistic on the cost front. Remember, HSTs /Voyagers/Adelantes are used on many routes where 125mph working is minimal, such as Paddington-Worcester/Hereford or some XC services, and so I don't think that because any Bristol-Oxford/Bedford working wouldn't have all that much 125mph running that we couldn't see Intercity stock. In fact, I'd be very surprised if we didn't see the EW route being worked by some (unless it's been specified otherwise), and this would likely be an extension of that in the medium run.

 

[jimm]

I don't doubt that they were true - I'm saying that they may not apply anymore. That's a big difference. Certainly I think Oxford-Swindon traffic may be profitable if it becomes a regular thing.

Regarding stock, I could see Intercity stock being used on a Bristol-Bedford route, so I don't think assuming semi-fast stock and new stations having to be built is necessarily the case either. In fact, it strikes me as very pessimistic on the cost front. Remember, HSTs /Voyagers/Adelantes are used on many routes where 125mph working is minimal, such as Paddington-Worcester/Hereford or some XC services, and so I don't think that because any Bristol-Oxford/Bedford working wouldn't have all that much 125mph running that we couldn't see Intercity stock. In fact, I'd be very surprised if we didn't see the EW route being worked by some (unless it's been specified otherwise), and this would likely be an extension of that in the medium run.

There is traffic, there has always been traffic. The problem has always been the volume of it - and with all the trains already running up and down between Oxford and Didcot and Didcot and Bristol, it remains a questionable use of resources to run direct trains, even if some of the connections at Didcot are less than ideal.

Any new through service will have to offer something different, which was, as I said, the fundamental problem with the FGW/Thames Trains Turbo service. It was infrequent and slow and, due to the absence of any intermediate stations that it could usefully serve that HSTs would speed through, offered nothing different at all, other than a limited through service.

That situation has not changed. Those intermediate stations still do not exist and without them there is no point starting to run semi-fasts along the GWML west of Didcot.

East West Rail started out with talk of going to Bristol but all the studies came down very firmly in favour of Reading as the place to go beyond Oxford and that is what is planned now, with MK-Reading and Bedford-Reading services. If some XC services from the East Midlands start running via Bedford, then you may get a Bristol service and intercity-type stock out of it, but again you would have to wonder what frequency you might be talking about, especially in the early days as I suspect they would want to test the market first.

If you did get a GW-area only Oxford-Bristol semi-fast in the future, or even Bristol-Bedford, it will be an emu. End of story. And such a service will only get financial support from the councils and LEPs on the route if they get their intermediate stations open again as part of the package - so it does indeed offer something different from the services already running - allowing people in Wantage/Grove to use the train to get to Didcot, Oxford and Swindon, and Corsham to Chippenham, Bath and Bristol, etc

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Some observations after a tour round the Thames and Kennet Valleys today.
While I did a lot of counting, it wasn't possible to get a full picture in one pass each way.
East of Reading I only saw the north side of the main line.

Portals
I counted 70 portals/gantries between Reading (Scours Lane) and Didcot (Moreton Cutting), and 12 between Maidenhead Bridge and Slough (north side of line).
About half of them are full portals over all four tracks, the other half being paired TTCs (twin-track cantilevers) over the main and relief lines separately.
That's about 18% of the portals up on this stretch.
No small piece items (the bits that hold the wires) to be seen.

Masts
West of Goring, a good proportion of the masts are up, without portals.
I can't count three things at once in my head, but I presume that pretty much all the masts are up Scours Lane-Goring.
No masts up east of the gasholders at Reading, except the few with portals near Taplow noted above.

Bases
It's difficult to be precise, but the vast majority of the bases are in on the same Scours Lane-Moreton Cutting section, and on towards Didcot.
East of Reading there are 142 bases (north side), mostly from the east end of Sonning cutting to well beyond Twyford/Ruscombe.
There are still long gaps west of Maidenhead, either side of Slough, and around West Drayton.
That looks like 28% of the bases in between Reading and the existing Heathrow wiring at Airport Jn.
On the Oxford branch, 84 bases are in from Didcot to the south of Kennington Jn (Up), 74 (Down), or about 27%.
On the Newbury branch, there are 119 bases on the Up and 150 on the Down, stretching almost to Newbury Racecourse, about 30%.

I last did the run on 6 January and hoped to see a lot of progress.
I'll leave readers to make their own assessment, but progress still seems slower than necessary to reach Oxford/Newbury by Dec 2016 (let alone Bristol).
It's good to see portals up, but progress east of Reading seems really slow.
There is lots of work going on on the lineside, station rebuilds, new track being relaid etc, but not many extra bases or masts going in.
At Reading, a huge amount of work has gone in recently on the remodelling, and many masts have been up for some time, but I noticed today that the new relief lines and their connections with the Westbury line have no bases or masts yet.

The Newbury branch has come on quickly.
I wonder if there is a "Plan B" for early electric services there instead of the main line?
It would certainly be simpler than wiring to Oxford.

There appears to be no electrification work going on at stations (except at Reading).
This is often where hold-ups occur as different methods are needed to the open line sections.
I also didn't see much in the way of resignalling preparations in the Oxford area.
I was under the impression that that had to be done before the wires went live, as the current signalling is not immunised for AC operation.

This is just a snapshot from an outsider on a single pass.
I'm finding it very hard to put an overall % complete figure on the project.
If regular users of the line know any different to the above, feel free to correct it.
It would all be a lot simpler if we knew NR's master plan!

 

[Unclepete]

Hi, I do live in Newbury, so your observations are pretty good.

One thing to note, is that a new bridge is currently being built at the eastern end of the racecourse & is expected to be completed around October. There is also a bridge replacement to be done on Boundry Road, which is due to happen around September time.

So far nothing has been done at Newbury station itself in terms of electrification, but things seem to be changing on an almost weekly basis

 

[Envoy]

If the East -West rail route made the connection between Bedford & Cambridge and a Ipswich > Cambridge > Oxford> Swindon> Bath>Bristol service were provided, I am sure that many passengers who travel to & from East Anglia would be attracted to this route in order to avoid London. The easier line of communication would also generate new customers especially as the road links between these places are poor/difficult..

Being as the route between Oxford & Bedford is being re-constructed & is more or less in a straight line, then surely, it should be designed for 125mph running which would thus justify 125mph stock being provided which in turn would be ideal for the GWML leg?

 

[TheNewNo2]

Talk of a "semi-fast" Bristol to Oxford train seems a bit odd, as unless you're counting Lawrence Hill to Filton Abbey Wood (or Keynsham and Oldfield Park) there are no intermediate stops between the HST stations anyway. Any service that was running would I'd think need to be 125mph stock, as the vast majority of services on these routes are HSTs and it's two track mostly.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Talk of a "semi-fast" Bristol to Oxford train seems a bit odd, as unless you're counting Lawrence Hill to Filton Abbey Wood (or Keynsham and Oldfield Park) there are no intermediate stops between the HST stations anyway. Any service that was running would I'd think need to be 125mph stock, as the vast majority of services on these routes are HSTs and it's two track mostly.

Exactly. I gave up replying as jimm seems set on his pessimism.

It's not like you can have multiple types of service run a particular route or anything...

 

[Stompehh]

If the East -West rail route made the connection between Bedford & Cambridge and a Ipswich > Cambridge > Oxford> Swindon> Bath>Bristol service were provided, I am sure that many passengers who travel to & from East Anglia would be attracted to this route in order to avoid London. The easier line of communication would also generate new customers especially as the road links between these places are poor/difficult..

As someone who regularly travels between Bristol and Bury St Edmunds, I would like this very much! It's currently 3 trains and a tube transfer to achieve this journey.

Not optimistic of it being likely to happen though...

 

[D6975]

If the East -West rail route made the connection between Bedford & Cambridge and a Ipswich > Cambridge > Oxford> Swindon> Bath>Bristol service were provided, I am sure that many passengers who travel to & from East Anglia would be attracted to this route in order to avoid London. The easier line of communication would also generate new customers especially as the road links between these places are poor/difficult..

Being as the route between Oxford & Bedford is being re-constructed & is more or less in a straight line, then surely, it should be designed for 125mph running which would thus justify 125mph stock being provided which in turn would be ideal for the GWML leg?

Ah-ha, methinks you've found a home for the Meridians..

 

[TheKnightWho]

Ah-ha, methinks you've found a home for the Meridians..

But it's being electrified, and is due to be finished a year before the wires reach Sheffield anyway. Even if there are delays, moving there for a couple of years doesn't seem worth it.

 

[jimm]

Talk of a "semi-fast" Bristol to Oxford train seems a bit odd, as unless you're counting Lawrence Hill to Filton Abbey Wood (or Keynsham and Oldfield Park) there are no intermediate stops between the HST stations anyway. Any service that was running would I'd think need to be 125mph stock, as the vast majority of services on these routes are HSTs and it's two track mostly.

Exactly. I gave up replying as jimm seems set on his pessimism.

It's not like you can have multiple types of service run a particular route or anything...

Did you bother to read my posts where I pointed out the three top priorities for reopening of intermediate stations between Didcot, Swindon and Bristol, in order to reinstate rail services to communities that are now a sight larger than they were when their stations closed in the 1960s.

When the Thames Trains/FGW Oxford-Bristol service was running, it was hoped to get at least Wantage Road and Corsham reopened in short order - precisely to take advantage of the Turbo service's existence, as there is no way that FGW or any other express operator on the route would ever want to stop HSTs at such places.

What is odd about trying to improve rail services across the board, so that there are indeed multiple types of services on a particular route - rather than just providing yet more 125mph trains on a journey already infested with them and offering nothing new, other than a minor detour into Oxford on another piece of track also already well provided with passenger trains and more on the way?

And I did say I could envisage long-distance trains to/from the East-West route providing a fast Oxford-Bristol link but a semi-fast serving some reopened stations would be far more useful to far more people - and the option of a faster journey with a change at Didcot would still be there for those who are in a hurry, with a rewritten post-electification timetable probably doing something to cut the connecting times as well.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Did you bother to read my posts where I pointed out the three top priorities for reopening of intermediate stations between Didcot, Swindon and Bristol, in order to reinstate rail services to communities that are now a sight larger than they were when their stations closed in the 1960s.

When the Thames Trains/FGW Oxford-Bristol service was running, it was hoped to get at least Wantage Road and Corsham reopened in short order - precisely to take advantage of the Turbo service's existence, as there is no way that FGW or any other express operator on the route would ever want to stop HSTs at such places.

What is odd about trying to improve rail services across the board, so that there are indeed multiple types of services on a particular route - rather than just providing yet more 125mph trains on a journey already infested with them and offering nothing new, other than a minor detour into Oxford on another piece of track also already well provided with passenger trains and more on the way?

And I did say I could envisage long-distance trains to/from the East-West route providing a fast Oxford-Bristol link but a semi-fast serving some reopened stations would be far more useful to far more people - and the option of a faster journey with a change at Didcot would still be there for those who are in a hurry, with a rewritten post-electification timetable probably doing something to cut the connecting times as well.

Yes, I did. I have no issue with the idea, but I don't believe they're integral to any service that might take that route as you seem to think. The service that used to run was the worst of both worlds: lower speed trains only stopping at principle stations. Instead, 125mph stock stopping at principle stations and the reopening of certain stations west of Didcot with a semi-fasst service stopping at them would prove much better.

What you don't seem to understand is that routes that don't use London are in high demand, and with an expensive new East-West rail link it would be good to get the best amount of use out of it. The East-West service will already have a semi-fast service on it, but as of yet there are no plans to have proper intercity stock running the route. A Bristol-Milton Keynes/Bedford service would be ideal, with further extensions to Peterborough, Norwich, Cambridge or Ipswich further in the future being possible.

 

[monsento]

whats going to happen to the heathrow connect trains?

 

[swt_passenger]

whats going to happen to the heathrow connect trains?

No-one really has a clue yet IMHO.

You'll find endless speculation all over these forums, where posters try and build a case for their local 350 or 360 operator, to take e them on.

However it is a known feature of the transfer of the service to Crossrail; so isn't really relevant to the wider GWML electrification project.

 

[jimm]

Yes, I did. I have no issue with the idea, but I don't believe they're integral to any service that might take that route as you seem to think. The service that used to run was the worst of both worlds: lower speed trains only stopping at principle stations. Instead, 125mph stock stopping at principle stations and the reopening of certain stations west of Didcot with a semi-fasst service stopping at them would prove much better.

What you don't seem to understand is that routes that don't use London are in high demand, and with an expensive new East-West rail link it would be good to get the best amount of use out of it. The East-West service will already have a semi-fast service on it, but as of yet there are no plans to have proper intercity stock running the route. A Bristol-Milton Keynes/Bedford service would be ideal, with further extensions to Peterborough, Norwich, Cambridge or Ipswich further in the future being possible.

Where is your proof that there is this massive demand for direct express trains between Oxford and Bristol? The Turbo experiment failed to establish that there was a high enough baseline level of demand for through trains - at whatever speed - to justify further development, not least because almost all the journey possibilities can already be covered on 125mph services anyway. FGW has shown no interest in reviving it in any form. I wonder why?

East West Rail looked in detail at the options for going to places beyond Oxford and came down decisively for Reading and against Swindon or Bristol, which also ought to tell you something.

When a group of MPs from constituencies along the route made the case to the Transport Secretary for an Oxford-Bristol direct service last year it was precisely in the context of it providing a way to serve reopened stations - ie a semi-fast service.

The East-West service will already have a semi-fast service on it, but as of yet there are no plans to have proper intercity stock running the route

Timetable plans for East West already have a path set aside every hour for long-distance trains and there have been many indications that some XC trains between Manchester and Reading or Southampton will run this way from MK to Oxford - but details of this or any other long-distance services are not going to become clear any time soon, as the line's reopening still is a way off and XC franchise renewal is not until late 2019 - but the bidders will presumably be asked for ideas on how to make the best use of East West, unless DfT decides it knows best and sets out requirements ahead of the bid process.

Whatever happens, East West does indeed have potential to offer all sorts of new services and some of them could link Oxford and Bristol as part of longer journeys but that is, I repeat, a very different matter from what type of service would be most useful overall to people living along that corridor - and offer something new - not just yet more 125mph trains between Didcot and Bristol.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Where is your proof that there is this massive demand for direct express trains between Oxford and Bristol? The Turbo experiment failed to establish that there was a high enough baseline level of demand for through trains - at whatever speed - to justify further development, not least because almost all the journey possibilities can already be covered on 125mph services anyway. FGW has shown no interest in reviving it in any form. I wonder why?

East West Rail looked in detail at the options for going to places beyond Oxford and came down decisively for Reading and against Swindon or Bristol, which also ought to tell you something.

When a group of MPs from constituencies along the route made the case to the Transport Secretary for an Oxford-Bristol direct service last year it was precisely in the context of it providing a way to serve reopened stations - ie a semi-fast service.

.

Did you even read my post? If you genuinely think this whole thing is simply about Oxford to Bristol and nothing more then I give up on this discussion, as you're clearly completely incapable of understanding the bigger picture.

And yes, I'm aware of the rest of your post, but you seem to be extremely focused on interpreting my suggestions in the least favourable light, both in terms of the speed of the service that would be offered and the destinations served. Frankly, there's little point in speaking further if you're going to refuse to understand that I am not talking about instant reinstatement.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

No-one really has a clue yet IMHO.

You'll find endless speculation all over these forums, where posters try and build a case for their local 350 or 360 operator, to take e them on.

However it is a known feature of the transfer of the service to Crossrail; so isn't really relevant to the wider GWML electrification project.

Abellio Greater Anglia would the be most likely place they'd go as any other existing operator of electric Desiros would probably need the cabs rebuilt for corridor connections

 

[BantamMenace]

Does anyone have the design speed of the section east of Oxford? As so far this discussion seems pure speculation.

 

[swt_passenger]

Does anyone have the design speed of the section east of Oxford? As so far this discussion seems pure speculation.

Max 100 mph on the Oxford to Bletchley section other than where there are PSRs.

It will also involve widening the existing track bed; doubling over 18km of track; increasing line speed to100mph; constructing new overbridges, underbridges and footbridges; closing 37 level crossings; building a new Oxford Parkway station at Water Eaton; upgrading Bicester Town and Islip stations; and installing a new signalling system.
http://www.eastwestrail.org.uk/bicester-oxford-east-west-rail-phase-1

 

[TheKnightWho]

Does anyone have the design speed of the section east of Oxford? As so far this discussion seems pure speculation.

100mph top speed running is perfectly adequate for intercity stock, really, which is why I'm making the case for the extension using such stock over 125mph track. Given XC routes are 125mph for a far lower percentage of their route (and for Newcastle terminators probably a comparable amount of absolute time) it's not outlandish to suggest.

 

[philjo]

I always thought that Bristol-Bath-Oxford would be part of an East-West service to Milton Keynes or Bedford as it give more connections e.g. at Swindon & Bristol to the south west/south wales from the east midlands/ East.
Later on once the Eastern section is sorted out I think it should be part of a Norwich-Cambridge-Oxford Bristol service (extending the existing Norwich-Cambridge service).

 

[jimm]

Did you even read my post? If you genuinely think this whole thing is simply about Oxford to Bristol and nothing more then I give up on this discussion, as you're clearly completely incapable of understanding the bigger picture.

And yes, I'm aware of the rest of your post, but you seem to be extremely focused on interpreting my suggestions in the least favourable light, both in terms of the speed of the service that would be offered and the destinations served. Frankly, there's little point in speaking further if you're going to refuse to understand that I am not talking about instant reinstatement.

Yes, I have read all your posts.

And no, it is not simply about Oxford to Bristol. Otherwise, why would I keep saying that I can envisage long-distance trains between the East-West route and Bristol at some point?

If I can't see the bigger picture, why is is that all you seem to be bothered about is a 125mph express service, when, as I keep pointing out, there already is a 125mph express service almost the whole way between Bristol and Oxford right now, ending 10 miles short at Didcot?

If a 125mph service, whether it ends at Oxford or not, is such a great wheeze, why does it not exist right now and for many years previously? Perhaps because the likely traffic between Oxford and Bristol is not at the level needed to justify it - as the lack of any current direct service and East West's preference for its services to go to Reading indicates.

Even if there are XC-type services running Oxford-Bristolin the future, how frequent are they likely to be, especially in the initial stages when the market will be an unknown quantity? Whereas there is clearly suppressed demand for rail travel at places like Wantage/Grove, Wootton Bassett and Corsham, - because they don't have a station to begin with. And the key to unlocking that demand is going to be something like an Oxford-Bristol semi-fast service, which can serve those places without slowing down expresses, and link those communities to local employment centres, like Didcot, Oxford, Swindon, Bath and Bristol, where they can also connect with trains serving all sorts of other places.

It's a question of priorities and, whether you like it to not, a semi-fast on that corridor that can allow those stations to reopen, is, I would argue, a much greater priority than providing yet more 125mph expresses between Didcot and Bristol.

As for 100mph-plus running on the East West route, Network Rail has been looking into that possibility for almost a year now. From the Oxford Mail last May

Network Rail has been asked to investigate the airport link as part of its work on a business case for an enhanced role for the East West route, due to open later this decade, which could see train speeds increased from the planned 100mph to 125mph on parts of the line.

Full story http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/11...ute_could_play_role_as_Heathrow_airport_link/

 

[hassaanhc]

Last week I noticed that two twin-track cantilevers have appeared over the main lines next to West Ealing Station, almost certainly to replace a couple or so headspans. Nothing attached to them yet.

 

[swtandgw]

Last week I noticed that two twin-track cantilevers have appeared over the main lines next to West Ealing Station, almost certainly to replace a couple or so headspans. Nothing attached to them yet.

I thought it was unnecessary, unless they're upgrading the already-electrified sections due to the inherent problems with Mk3 equipment and to make them 140mph capable?

 

[edwin_m]

I thought it was unnecessary, unless they're upgrading the already-electrified sections due to the inherent problems with Mk3 equipment and to make them 140mph capable?

May be to do with layout or signalling changes under Crossrail?

 

[swt_passenger]

I thought it was unnecessary, unless they're upgrading the already-electrified sections due to the inherent problems with Mk3 equipment and to make them 140mph capable?

IEP project is upgrading Paddington to Heathrow Junction, as it was only designed for HEx/Connect speeds and power draw.

 

[davetheguard]

IEP project is upgrading Paddington to Heathrow Junction, as it was only designed for HEx/Connect speeds and power draw.

Hopefully all the headspans will go........?

 

[swt_passenger]

Hopefully all the headspans will go........?

Not at all sure about that really. There are significant sections of four track (or more) gantries being installed though, e.g. in the vicinity of the Acton dive under.

Here's hoping...

 

[po8crg]

There are a handful of new headspans on the Chat Moss electrification which is used as a Pendo diversionary route and copes with a lot of power. They were only put in for heritage reasons (eg at Rainhill), but might suggest there's no need to replace them just for a higher power draw.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Hopefully all the headspans will go........?

On the ECML, NR has investigated how to get the OHLE up to 140mph.
It seems the masts could stay, supporting new portal structures which would carry a new contact wire with a larger cross section at higher tension.
There would be lots of other work needed to make the line fit for 140mph.

As I understand the GWML position, they will upgrade Acton-Airport Jn for 125mph without major alterations to the OHLE route.
Some new sections are needed anyway for the remodelled track layout.
It will be 140mph-capable west of Airport Jn, but there are no plans to implement it apart from a section for acceptance testing.