Great Western Electrification Progress

[snowball]

"Western Route Study Draft October 2014"

Does anyone have a link to this document, please?

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=30064792885

 

[swt_passenger]

If so, then it was directly contradicting Hitachi's own datasheet. I had no trouble believing at the time because a single underfloor transformer on an ICE3 is 4MW.

I think that the data sheet doesn't actually show transformer capacity, the row in the table is showing total power available. RF discovered that the single transformer in the 10 car bi-mode was not 4MW.

But in Feb 2010's informed sources he was reporting that DfT had told him that the full length bi-mode would now have 2 x 2.38 MW transformers, one at each end, and that this was a change to the original spec.

He referred back to a DFT Q&A on IEP from 2008 [if only that could be found online?] that had explicitly stated that the 10 car bi-mode had only one 2 MW transformer at the 'electric' end car.

It wasn't until the March 2011 version he reported the main change to multiple underfloor engines throughout the diesel and bi-mode units.

 

[HSTEd]

So could that mean faster acellerating trains, with a higher top speed, and more energy efficient too?

Yes, imagine transformers being so light that every multiple unit could have every axle motored.
Every train accelerating like S-stock in low range and then Class 395 in high range.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

"Western Route Study Draft October 2014"
Does anyone have a link to this document, please?

Route studies generally: http://www.networkrail.co.uk/long-term-planning-process/route-studies/
Western in particular: http://www.networkrail.co.uk/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=30064792885

 

[FenMan]

A typo has crept into one of the tables in that document. Apparently a 3 coach Class 16x has 282 standard class seats, which would make things pretty cosy!

Elsewhere in the same table a 2+3 coach Class 16x configuration is calculated as having 370 seats i.e. 138 + 232, which sounds more like it.

 

[The Ham]

A typo has crept into one of the tables in that document. Apparently a 3 coach Class 16x has 282 standard class seats, which would make things pretty cosy!

Elsewhere in the same table a 2+3 coach Class 16x configuration is calculated as having 370 seats i.e. 138 + 232, which sounds more like it.

According to Angel Trains their 166's have:
http://www.angeltrains.co.uk/Products-Services/Regional-Passenger-Trains/9

Seating 3+2 and 2+2 facing/unidirectional (2+2 facing in 1st class). 224 Std and 32 1st class seats per unit

Whilst their 165's have:
http://www.angeltrains.co.uk/Products-Services/Regional-Passenger-Trains/8

Seating 3+2 facing/unidirectional (2+2 facing in 1st class). 170 Std, 16 1st class seats per 2-car unit. 264 std, 24 1st class seats per 3-car unit

 

[Class 170101]

That shouldn't be a problem because they will join the WCML north of Ledburn where LM fasts cross to the slows.

But the link from East West Rail at Bletchley actually links onto the slow lines not the fasts.

 

[21C101]

But the link from East West Rail at Bletchley actually links onto the slow lines not the fasts.

Indeed, you are right there.

I wonder if they are planning to reinstate the original (pre "white elephant" flyover link onto the fasts?

 

[33Hz]

I think that the data sheet doesn't actually show transformer capacity, the row in the table is showing total power available. RF discovered that the single transformer in the 10 car bi-mode was not 4MW.

But in Feb 2010's informed sources he was reporting that DfT had told him that the full length bi-mode would now have 2 x 2.38 MW transformers, one at each end, and that this was a change to the original spec.

He referred back to a DFT Q&A on IEP from 2008 [if only that could be found online?] that had explicitly stated that the 10 car bi-mode had only one 2 MW transformer at the 'electric' end car.

It wasn't until the March 2011 version he reported the main change to multiple underfloor engines throughout the diesel and bi-mode units.

Thanks - it still seems like a strange decision to me when a change to a 4MW transformer would have been sufficient, rather than change the whole architecture, and there would have been the benefit of hybrid fuel and emissions savings and a quieter passenger environment.

 

[The Planner]

Indeed, you are right there.

I wonder if they are planning to reinstate the original (pre "white elephant" flyover link onto the fasts?

In a word, no.

 

[Chris125]

Indeed, you are right there.

I wonder if they are planning to reinstate the original (pre "white elephant" flyover link onto the fasts?

You can see a Down Fast connection on page 6 of this presentation to local councillors, it wasn't part of the core scheme but could form part of an enhanced spec.

Chris

 

[HowardGWR]

Lib Dem leader is chasing votes in the SW (of course, no news there). Quote:
"Whether it's duelling (sic!) and upgrading the A303, A30 and A358, improving the rail track between Exeter and Salisbury, or increasing the frequency of rail services between London and Penzance, these are things that people and businesses across the South West tell me they need to help this region thrive.

"In the Autumn Statement the Liberal Democrats and I are determined that we prioritise investment in infrastructure projects such as these, to make sure that the South West gets the road and rail services it both needs and deserves.”

My reaction is, 'what is meant by improvements between Exeter and Salisbury' (why not 'dualling' like the roads) and as an aside, I am glad it is still settled on dualling the A358 and leaving the Blackdown Hills AONB alone. Most of the heavy HGV traffic needs that road in preference, as one can observe, and it will be a seamless route to the SW also, hopefully.

But what are they cooking up for the LSWR line?

 

[swt_passenger]

But what are they cooking up for the LSWR line?

As a bare minimum, it might just be the other dynamic loop they need (at Whimple is it?) to run a flexible 2 tph service each way, rather than the pathing problems they have with its use as a GWML diversionary route at the moment.

That alone would tick a few boxes in the overall plan to improve 'south west resilience', and also allow the 'Devon Metro' half hourly service to Axminster...

 

[HowardGWR]

As a bare minimum, it might just be the other dynamic loop they need (at Whimple is it?) to run a flexible 2 tph service each way, rather than the pathing problems they have with its use as a GWML diversionary route at the moment.

That alone would tick a few boxes in the overall plan to improve 'south west resilience', and also allow the 'Devon Metro' half hourly service to Axminster...

Thanks SWT. The road improvements will be in the billions; what you suggest (sounds better than nothing) will be in the '10 millions'. Doesn't seem fair.

 

[starrymarkb]

I am glad it is still settled on dualling the A358 and leaving the Blackdown Hills AONB alone.

I'm not - if the M5 Between Exeter and Taunton is blocked (like last month it was shut for about 7 hours*) the jams on the A30 at Honiton and through the Blackdowns are horrendous - there really does need to be two roads capable of taking heavy traffic in/out of the South West. What's that word? resilience.

*Took about 2 hours to get from Exeter to Ilminster! (and yes I was using Public Transport - NatEx) - 90 mins of that was just to Honiton!

 

[21C101]

I'm not - if the M5 Between Exeter and Taunton is blocked (like last month it was shut for about 7 hours*) the jams on the A30 at Honiton and through the Blackdowns are horrendous - there really does need to be two roads capable of taking heavy traffic in/out of the South West. What's that word? resilience.

*Took about 2 hours to get from Exeter to Ilminster! (and yes I was using Public Transport - NatEx) - 90 mins of that was just to Honiton!

I'm not sure that is still settled. Undoubtably though the A358 is the busier route at present with an awful lot of north South traffic (ie A358, A303, A3088, A37) which exceeds E-W traffic on the A303 on Mon-Fri.

 

[HowardGWR]

I'm not - if the M5 Between Exeter and Taunton is blocked (like last month it was shut for about 7 hours*) the jams on the A30 at Honiton and through the Blackdowns are horrendous - there really does need to be two roads capable of taking heavy traffic in/out of the South West. What's that word? resilience.

*Took about 2 hours to get from Exeter to Ilminster! (and yes I was using Public Transport - NatEx) - 90 mins of that was just to Honiton!

That's (with respect) anecdote. One has to look at the Highways Agency stats over the years. You could say the same about any length of highway, or railway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm not sure that is still settled. Undoubtably though the A358 is the busier route at present with an awful lot of north South traffic (ie A358, A303, A3088, A37) which exceeds E-W traffic on the A303 on Mon-Fri.

It emerged during the Blackdown Hills Inquiry that construction of a new road through that Blackdown Hills trajectory would lead to a substantial increase of traffic along the A358 to Taunton.

Pragmatism and analysis of the traffic movements comes down for dualling of the A358, and that's without giving a toffee for the Blackdowns AONB being taken into account. Nothing prevents diversion of traffic onto other roads in a rare emergency, we have hundreds of them!

 

[21C101]

That's (with respect) anecdote). One has to look at the Highways Agency stats over the years. You could say the same about any length of highway, or railway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It emerged during the Blackdown Hills Inquiry that construction of a new road through that Blackdown Hills trajectory would lead to a substantial increase of traffic along the A358 to Taunton.

Pragmatism and analysis of the traffic movements comes down for dualling of the A358, and that's without giving a toffee for the Blackdowns AONB being taken into account. Nothing prevents diversion of traffic onto other roads in a rare emergency, we have hundreds of them!

Undoubtably the A358 will be the higher priority, however it may well be that both get done. The scheme was virtually at letting of contract stage when it was canned in the early '90s and there was little, if any, local opposition.

 

[HowardGWR]

Undoubtably the A358 will be the higher priority, however it may well be that both get done. The scheme was virtually at letting of contract stage when it was canned in the early '90s and there was little, if any, local opposition.

Yes, but we did not have the newer planning policies on NPs and AsONB then.

Let's get back to Salisbury to Exeter. We are in the wrong thread as I don't think electrification is planned and some say it isn't 'GW' but quite clearly, in present times, these designations are spurious. The route from Castle Cary / Yeovil Jcn to Exeter is an important alternative route and taking into account an earlier poster's comments, whereas there are many alternative routes for road traffic (if the HA could be persuaded to recognise that there are other roads than 'its' roads for diversion) this route is of major strategic importance.

I long to see strategic assessment in these Route Surveys but one would think that 19th century Saunders and Allsop were still alive sometimes.

 

[Olaf]

The CP5 Delivery Plan update for September has now been published:
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/cp5-delivery-plan/cp5-enhancements-delivery-plan.pdf

• The Basingstoke to Reading branch has now been moved into the branch-lines electrification project for delivery but still forms part of teh Electric Spine program,
• There is some delay on the starting milestone for the South Wales project, but still has same completion date for the infrastructure,
• The AC/DC conversion project on the SWML is still under the Electric Spine project with no change to the milestones,
• No other significant changes that I can see.

 

[33Hz]

Undoubtably the A358 will be the higher priority, however it may well be that both get done. The scheme was virtually at letting of contract stage when it was canned in the early '90s and there was little, if any, local opposition.

Taunton Deane recently published a plan to open a large office park just south east of J25. One hopes the government are aware as it's right where the 1990s proposed A358 upgrade was due to run.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

• The Basingstoke to Reading branch has now been moved into the branch-lines electrification project for delivery but still forms part of teh Electric Spine program,
• There is some delay on the starting milestone for the South Wales project, but still has same completion date for the infrastructure,
• The AC/DC conversion project on the SWML is still under the Electric Spine project with no change to the milestones,
• No other significant changes that I can see.

They seem to have split out "Entry into Service" (infrastructure useable) from from the "First Electric Train in Public Timetable" dates.
Looks like Filton Bank will be the last bit of route east of Cardiff to be finished.
They have at least completed Grip 3, and have owned up to design issues with wire heights and clearances at stations and under bridges.
No change to the Dec 2016 date for Oxford/Newbury/Bristol Parkway.

 

[Olaf]

They seem to have split out "Entry into Service" (infrastructure useable) from from the "First Electric Train in Public Timetable" dates.

Yes, that change in reporting appears to have been brought about by the ORR.

Looking elsewhere in the documentation, the WCML electrification upgrade work seems to have taken a hit.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Once all current electrification projects are done, how many route miles of non-electric track will that leave between the where a train would leave the 3rd rail area and where it would pick up the overhead on the WCML?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Once all current electrification projects are done, how many route miles of non-electric track will that leave between the where a train would leave the 3rd rail area and where it would pick up the overhead on the WCML?

By March 2019 there should be a through electric route Southampton-Basingstoke-Oxford-Bletchley to the WCML (switching from DC to AC at Basingstoke).
A date for Reading-Basingstoke is not confirmed, but it appears to have been added to the Thames Valley branches list.
The Oxford-Leamington-Coventry-Nuneaton route may follow but currently without a date.
Acton-Wembley (allowing electric working Reading-Acton-WCML) is also planned but without a date.
Routes involving DC east of Basingstoke probably suffer from clearance problems for freight.
All the DC route signalling would need upgrading to be able to run class 92s on freight, the only viable loco.
This was necessary for Channel Tunnel routes in the 90s.
DC-AC conversion is still at the feasibility stage, with nothing committed from NR.

 

[76020]

By March 2019 there should be a through electric route Southampton-Basingstoke-Oxford-Bletchley to the WCML (switching from DC to AC at Basingstoke).
A date for Reading-Basingstoke is not confirmed, but it appears to have been added to the Thames Valley branches list.
The Oxford-Leamington-Coventry-Nuneaton route may follow but currently without a date.
Acton-Wembley (allowing electric working Reading-Acton-WCML) is also planned but without a date.
Routes involving DC east of Basingstoke probably suffer from clearance problems for freight.
All the DC route signalling would need upgrading to be able to run class 92s on freight, the only viable loco.
This was necessary for Channel Tunnel routes in the 90s.
DC-AC conversion is still at the feasibility stage, with nothing committed from NR.

I sure that I have seen something somewhere that the Class 92's would be banned from the SWML on DC, in any case the electric equipment for this section of the 3rd rail, which is part of the electric spine, is life expired so money will have to be spent.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I sure that I have seen something somewhere that the Class 92's would be banned from the SWML on DC, in any case the electric equipment for this section of the 3rd rail, which is part of the electric spine, is life expired so money will have to be spent.

Indeed, but NR has not yet indicated it has a plan to do the conversion.
I suppose a passenger service might be considered with class 350/377/395-type dual-voltage trains switching mode at Basingstoke, but I don't know if the SWML infrastructure could support it.
We'll have to wait and see what services DfT propose over the new East-West line.

 

[swt_passenger]

...in any case the electric equipment for this section of the 3rd rail, which is part of the electric spine, is life expired so money will have to be spent.

That is the usual over-simplification. Much of the DC equipment (around 30% - 40% by some accounts) on the route is only ten years old, because it was fitted to strengthen the supplies for the Desiro fleet. Anyone using the route regularly will be familiar with new electrification equipment at a number of locations.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Could a dual-voltage version of a class 800 be made and used by XC eventually?

 

[AM9]

Could a dual-voltage version of a class 800 be made and used by XC eventually?

What a waste of money for a design that should be in service for 30-40 years. Well before then, all of the existing XC routes in DC territory should be AC. That's Basingstoke to Bournemouth. The only 3rd rail routes left by then will be within the current travelcard zones.