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Great Western Electrification Progress

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swt_passenger

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They can't, see one of the arguments in the Thameslink Desiro City debates about that as the Flexx Eco bogie uses Inside Frames / Outside Bearings = No where to put a third rail pick up shoe.

When you raised this point a couple of years ago, there was a link in reply that led to a picture of an inside frame bogie complete with pickup shoe:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1094356&postcount=75

which included: http://www.railnews.co.uk/img/medium/news01348.jpg

In any case, the Desiro City must be getting shoe fitted inside frame bogies so the problem (if there ever was one) must be solved.

I'd agree the likelihood of pick up shoes on a Voyager is vanishingly small, but I don't necessarily agree it is technically impossible.
 
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JamesRowden

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An interesting bit to add to this thread from the Western Route Study Draft is this part suggesting the services that it anticiaptes to be operating between Basingstoke and Reading in 2019. I have highilighted in red the parts that I think are most interesting.

Network Rail Western Route Study Draft for Consultation said:
Description of the Anticipated 2019 Baseline Infrastructure

The investment projects expected to be implemented between
2014 and 2019 mean that the infrastructure assumptions for the
baseline differ from today’s infrastructure. This includes:
electrification of the route between Reading and Basingstoke .

Anticipated 2019 Service Patterns
The principal off-peak train services anticipated in the 2019
Indicative Train Service Specification (ITSS) are as follows (tph=
train per hour, each direction):

• 1tph London Paddington – Newbury
• 2tph London Paddington – Exeter or beyond (via the Berks &
Hants line)
• 2tph Basingstoke – Reading
• 1tph Bournemouth – Manchester Piccadilly
• 1tph Southampton Central or Reading – Newcastle
1tph Basingstoke to Manchester (via East West Rail)
• 2-3tph Freight.

In addition to the off-peak anticipated 2019 service pattern, an additional peak service is expected to operate between Newbury and Reading, allowing the London Paddington to Newbury service to omit a number of calls at smaller stations and provide a reduced journey time.

The Reading to Basingstoke Route Section forms part of the Strategic Freight Network from the Port of Southampton to the West Coast Main Line (WCML), West Midlands and beyond with significant quantities of freight traffic transported, the majority of which is intermodal. Typically there are two freight paths per hour per direction throughout the day, in some hours increased to three.

Running the service from Basingstoke rather than Southampton means that the stock will not need to be capable of recieving 3rd rail power.
 

swt_passenger

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Running the service from Basingstoke rather than Southampton means that the stock will not need to be capable of recieving 3rd rail power.

Well spotted.

There'll possibly now be one of the those debates along the lines of 'no-one will ever want to travel from Manchester to Basingstoke' - like the one about Thameslink linking Cambridge and Tottenham Corner... :D
 

The Ham

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Running the service from Basingstoke rather than Southampton means that the stock will not need to be capable of recieving 3rd rail power.

Although that service is in addition to the current 1tph between Bournemouth – Manchester Piccadilly which is listed two lines up.
 

HowardGWR

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Surely the idea of this routing is that Basingstoke to Manchester via EWR (i.e. Oxford to Bletchley and then via WCML is all under the wires?
I suppose we all set our minds against bi-mode when Roger Ford told us to do so. :D

I can see that one should perhaps regard them strategically like we do 'last mile' engines, i.e. go anywhere and it gets a service off the ground, while awaiting total electrification. I suppose one could cover the entire GW main lines on that basis, indeed the entire country.
 

swt_passenger

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I suppose we all set our minds against bi-mode when Roger Ford told us to do so. :D

I can see that one should perhaps regard them strategically like we do 'last mile' engines, i.e. go anywhere and it gets a service off the ground, while awaiting total electrification. I suppose one could cover the entire GW main lines on that basis, indeed the entire country.

I've nothing against bi-mode where it is a reasonable solution. Just pointing out there's no need to assume it is required in this case, as the route will be wired from end to end.

On the more general point, Roger Ford's hatchet job on the original bi-mode mainly concerned the 10 car, which was seriously underpowered whether running on diesel only or electric only. (His analysis proved the diesel would have to run under the wires on the ECML to maintain existing HST performance.)

A while later he retracted most of the criticism of the power setup once Hitachi had significantly re-designed it with the end power cars replaced by underfloor engines, and with transformers at both end...
 

HSTEd

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The unfortunate thing is it appears that technology will make the bi-mode implementation in the IEP obsolete fairly soon.

SiC power transistors are now with us and are going to cause a revolution - the line frequency traction transformer's day is rapidly coming to an end.
High Frequency transformers for locomotive levels of power that weigh under 1000kg beckon.
 

Ironside

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The unfortunate thing is it appears that technology will make the bi-mode implementation in the IEP obsolete fairly soon.

SiC power transistors are now with us and are going to cause a revolution - the line frequency traction transformer's day is rapidly coming to an end.
High Frequency transformers for locomotive levels of power that weigh under 1000kg beckon.

That sounds interesting, is a SiC power transistor a form of battery storage?
 

HowardGWR

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The unfortunate thing is it appears that technology will make the bi-mode implementation in the IEP obsolete fairly soon.

SiC power transistors are now with us and are going to cause a revolution - the line frequency traction transformer's day is rapidly coming to an end.
High Frequency transformers for locomotive levels of power that weigh under 1000kg beckon.
I suppose a bird in the hand, etc. Is there anything in this technology that would prevent a refit in future?
 

edwin_m

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The unfortunate thing is it appears that technology will make the bi-mode implementation in the IEP obsolete fairly soon.

SiC power transistors are now with us and are going to cause a revolution - the line frequency traction transformer's day is rapidly coming to an end.
High Frequency transformers for locomotive levels of power that weigh under 1000kg beckon.

That may reduce the size of the electric traction package but it isn't going to change the diesel one.
 

33Hz

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On the more general point, Roger Ford's hatchet job on the original bi-mode mainly concerned the 10 car, which was seriously underpowered whether running on diesel only or electric only. (His analysis proved the diesel would have to run under the wires on the ECML to maintain existing HST performance.)

A while later he retracted most of the criticism of the power setup once Hitachi had significantly re-designed it with the end power cars replaced by underfloor engines, and with transformers at both end...

I hear this repeated again and again and I still don't get it.

When on electric power, the train had 4MW - more than enough for 125 mph. I've no idea where this diesel running under the wires idea came from.

When running on diesel, the engine could produce a constant 2MW - enough for 110 mph. What stretches of track would remain unwired with a higher speed than this?

Also, when running on diesel, the battery could supply a further 2MW for 3 minutes (or some other combination of power and time) for a starting traction of 400kN, just like the electric variant. This was more than enough for the likes of the Devon Banks, frequently cited as a problem by critics.

The datasheet for the original IEP version is here.


IMHO we are going to end up with another noisy Voyager-alike thanks to unwarranted criticism by people who don't get the advantages of hybrid vehicles.
 

fgwrich

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When you raised this point a couple of years ago, there was a link in reply that led to a picture of an inside frame bogie complete with pickup shoe:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1094356&postcount=75

which included: http://www.railnews.co.uk/img/medium/news01348.jpg

In any case, the Desiro City must be getting shoe fitted inside frame bogies so the problem (if there ever was one) must be solved.

I'd agree the likelihood of pick up shoes on a Voyager is vanishingly small, but I don't necessarily agree it is technically impossible.

I had sort of forgotten about that one and sort of hadn't, as I believe the original plan of Siemens was to ask Bombardier for them to construct the bogies for the Desiro City's, Until Bombardier reputedly told them to b**ger off and Siemens started construction on it's own bogie instead - producing what we'll be seeing on the 700 as you linked too. Agreed, Possible not impossible, but unlikely to be retrofitted to Bombardiers bogie without some serious redesign. I believe they are working on a similar bogie for the Crossrail Contract as the 'Adventura' should be receiving inside frame bogies as well.

Interesting to hear of the above, given how Siemens & Bombardier are working together on the new rolling stock for DB, which will feature Siemens & Bombardier built bodies on Bombardier's Flexx Eco bogies.

Interesting to see the possibility of this Basingstoke to Manchester service too, as currently XC have the flexibility of sending it's stock to Eastleigh Depot - and indeed I believe a few services still either start or terminate on occasions at Eastleigh? which could still happen with a Voyager or BI-Voyager if that scheme is resurrected, but less possible if the unit is AC only. But it confirms at least 1 service for East - West rail already.
 
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How would journey times compare for the two routes?
- Basingstoke to Manchester via Birmingham
- Basingstoke to Manchester via Milton Keynes

3.5 - 4 hours for each routing? Doesn't seem to be much in it?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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How would journey times compare for the two routes?
- Basingstoke to Manchester via Birmingham
- Basingstoke to Manchester via Milton Keynes
3.5 - 4 hours for each routing? Doesn't seem to be much in it?

You could do Oxford-Manchester in about 2h15m running fast from Milton Keynes to Stoke/Crewe (allowing 30m Oxford-MKC for 35 miles on a mostly 100mph line).
45m on to Basingstoke should be possible with the wizzo new layout now taking shape at Reading.
So 3h overall, if they really wanted to do it (with a Pendolino).
You won't get a fast path on the WCML without tilt*.

*PS - That's if there are any WCML paths left in the new franchise, plus whatever emerges from the Alliance bid.
Network Rail currently has a moratorium on extra trains on the WCML south of Rugby for performance reasons.
 
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JamesRowden

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How would journey times compare for the two routes?
- Basingstoke to Manchester via Birmingham
- Basingstoke to Manchester via Milton Keynes

3.5 - 4 hours for each routing? Doesn't seem to be much in it?

Oxford-Birmingham-Manchester: 2h59m

Oxford-Milton Keynes (4 intermediate stops): 40m (from East West Rail site)

Milton Keynes-Manchester (2 intermediate stops): 1h38m

I think that the time made through not stopping at Oxford Parkway, Bicester, Winslow might be comparable to the time lost through adding a couple of extra stops between Milton Keynes and Manchester. The service with this stopping pattern appears to be about 40 minutes faster than the service via Birmingham.

I think that there could be a case for the West Coast franchise to operate the service via Milton Keynes since it already operates 125mph tilting electric stock.
 

HSTEd

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That sounds interesting, is a SiC power transistor a form of battery storage?

No, it refers to the components that the traction package is built from.

Current packages use power transitors built from silicon, which is the first generation semiconductor on which our civilisation has been built. However practical silicon transistors can only hold off a voltage of ~4-6kV with a single device. This means that attempting to build a 'switch' that can convert 25kV from the overheadline into something useful to the motors has to have numerous devices in series, with all the intendant control problems.
Traditional systems overcome this issue by simply having a transformer between the 25kV supply and the actual bus used b the converter pack, which is often near ~3000V.
However the transformer is enormously heavy.

In contrast, SiC (Silicon carbide) transistors will be able to hold off 15-20kV easily, which means that only two modules in series would be able to switch the 25kV overhead line supply without much difficulty.
For a variety of reasons you would still have a transformer (it has important safety values for example) but since you can put a switch on the 'line' side you can convert the 50Hz supply into one with a frequency of up to 50kHz, potentially allowing you to shrink the transformer's enormous metal 'core' a thousandfold (Actual transformer sizes do not shrink that much as you still have to account for the size of the copper windings which don't shrink).

SO instead of a transformer weighing ten tonnes you get one that weighs something like a hundred kilogrammes, with an additional semiconductor switch of about the same weigh, saving you ~90+% of the weight.
That changes the design choices about the positioning and distribution of the transformers rather drastically.

That may reduce the size of the electric traction package but it isn't going to change the diesel one.

No, but it rather drastically affects the design choices that led to the existing diesel package. No heavy transformer means there is no particular reason to have a Pantograph-transformer trailer vehicle any more.
The Pantograph vehicle can hold the transformer, motors and a diesel engine with ease.
That changes the argument about fewer larger engines versus more smaller ones that would be more compact and easily placeable without causing problems with the floor et al.

The HF transformer also removes any benefit in using a 230/400V 1/3-phase AC supply for auxiliaries, better to use the new data-centre standard of 380V DC which saves further weight in air con and lighting controllers. (1200V SiC MOSFETs also remove the need for a central auxiliary converter on third rail units since you can easily built single level inverters running directly from the third rail).
Its a jump similar to the development of the motor-generator in place of series lighting and voltage dividers.
 
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The Ham

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You could do Oxford-Manchester in about 2h15m running fast from Milton Keynes to Stoke/Crewe (allowing 30m Oxford-MKC for 35 miles on a mostly 100mph line).
45m on to Basingstoke should be possible with the wizzo new layout now taking shape at Reading.
So 3h overall, if they really wanted to do it (with a Pendolino).
You won't get a fast path on the WCML without tilt*.

*PS - That's if there are any WCML paths left in the new franchise, plus whatever emerges from the Alliance bid.
Network Rail currently has a moratorium on extra trains on the WCML south of Rugby for performance reasons.

The RUS is looking at services up to the early 2040's, so such a service may be post HS2. In which case there may be extra paths available as well as spare Pendolino's (or whatever tilting trains which may come along during the next ICWC franchise).
 

JamesRowden

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The RUS is looking at services up to the early 2040's, so such a service may be post HS2. In which case there may be extra paths available as well as spare Pendolino's (or whatever tilting trains which may come along during the next ICWC franchise).

Or perhaps it will run in 2019 via Northampton.
 

swt_passenger

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I hear this repeated again and again and I still don't get it.

When on electric power, the train had 4MW - more than enough for 125 mph. I've no idea where this diesel running under the wires idea came from.

In early 2009, over a few editions, RF was reporting that the 10 car bi-mode only had 2MW electrical capacity installed, unfortunately I've chucked out the 2009 magazines now.

However this is from his 'e-preview' in May 2009:

... And there is still widespread confusion over the configuration, with even experienced railwaymen believing that the 10-car Bi-mode is a full power electric train plus a diesel power-house at one end.

But, in fact, the Bi-mode will have a 2MW electric traction package at one end and a 2MW diesel power house at the other.

So to get the same performance as a 10 car electric SET, for example on the East Coast Main Line, the 10-car Bi-mode is going to have the diesel engine running and quite a lot of the time.

https://ezezine.com/ezine/archives/759/759-2009.04.20.00.01.archive.html

But in reality this is quite off topic for this thread now, and is of academic interest since the traction packages the trains are actually getting are totally different. So we shouldn't really be discussing it...
 
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Ironside

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No, it refers to the components that the traction package is built from.

Current packages use power transitors built from silicon, which is the first generation semiconductor on which our civilisation has been built. However practical silicon transistors can only hold off a voltage of ~4-6kV with a single device. This means that attempting to build a 'switch' that can convert 25kV from the overheadline into something useful to the motors has to have numerous devices in series, with all the intendant control problems.
Traditional systems overcome this issue by simply having a transformer between the 25kV supply and the actual bus used b the converter pack, which is often near ~3000V.
However the transformer is enormously heavy.

In contrast, SiC (Silicon carbide) transistors will be able to hold off 15-20kV easily, which means that only two modules in series would be able to switch the 25kV overhead line supply without much difficulty.
For a variety of reasons you would still have a transformer (it has important safety values for example) but since you can put a switch on the 'line' side you can convert the 50Hz supply into one with a frequency of up to 50kHz, potentially allowing you to shrink the transformer's enormous metal 'core' a thousandfold (Actual transformer sizes do not shrink that much as you still have to account for the size of the copper windings which don't shrink).

SO instead of a transformer weighing ten tonnes you get one that weighs something like a hundred kilogrammes, with an additional semiconductor switch of about the same weigh, saving you ~90+% of the weight.
That changes the design choices about the positioning and distribution of the transformers rather drastically.



No, but it rather drastically affects the design choices that led to the existing diesel package. No heavy transformer means there is no particular reason to have a Pantograph-transformer trailer vehicle any more.
The Pantograph vehicle can hold the transformer, motors and a diesel engine with ease.
That changes the argument about fewer larger engines versus more smaller ones that would be more compact and easily placeable without causing problems with the floor et al.

The HF transformer also removes any benefit in using a 230/400V 1/3-phase AC supply for auxiliaries, better to use the new data-centre standard of 380V DC which saves further weight in air con and lighting controllers. (1200V SiC MOSFETs also remove the need for a central auxiliary converter on third rail units since you can easily built single level inverters running directly from the third rail).
Its a jump similar to the development of the motor-generator in place of series lighting and voltage dividers.

Wow that is quite impressive improvement.
 

21C101

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You could do Oxford-Manchester in about 2h15m running fast from Milton Keynes to Stoke/Crewe (allowing 30m Oxford-MKC for 35 miles on a mostly 100mph line).
45m on to Basingstoke should be possible with the wizzo new layout now taking shape at Reading.
So 3h overall, if they really wanted to do it (with a Pendolino).
You won't get a fast path on the WCML without tilt*.

*PS - That's if there are any WCML paths left in the new franchise, plus whatever emerges from the Alliance bid.
Network Rail currently has a moratorium on extra trains on the WCML south of Rugby for performance reasons.

That shouldn't be a problem because they will join the WCML north of Ledburn where LM fasts cross to the slows.
 

33Hz

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In early 2009, over a few editions, RF was reporting that the 10 car bi-mode only had 2MW electrical capacity installed, unfortunately I've chucked out the 2009 magazines now.

However this is from his 'e-preview' in May 2009:

If so, then it was directly contradicting Hitachi's own datasheet. I had no trouble believing at the time because a single underfloor transformer on an ICE3 is 4MW.


Re SiC: I remember seeing an article many years ago about Siemens using high frequency up conversion of mains to reduce transformer mass. Has it been implemented on any train? Tram-trains are an obvious application.

Back on topic: If Basingstoke is getting wired early, do we think Crossrail might be extended further?
 
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JamesRowden

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Back on topic: If Basingstoke is getting wired early, do we think Crossrail might be extended further?

The Western Route Study draft looked at potential additional through services (combining two services that would otherwise terminate from the east and west at Reading) and produced the following possibilities:
Network Rail Western Route Study Draft for Consultation October 2014 said:
  • 2tph London Paddington to Oxford (local)
    • Electric, 8 cars
    • Maintains the existing link between London Paddington and the local stations west of Reading
  • 1tph London Paddington via Heathrow Airport to Southampton or Bournemouth
    • Electric, 8 cars
    • This link is specified in the Cross-Boundary ITSS. It would provide improved connectivity from the Wessex Route Study area to Reading, Heathrow Airport, and Old Oak Common.
  • 1tph London Paddington via Heathrow Airport to Basingstoke
    • Electric, 8 cars
    • Increases the London Paddington and Heathrow Airport to Basingstoke frequency to 2tph. On completion of electrification of the route between Reading and Basingstoke. There is a platform length issue between Reading and Basingstoke
  • 2tph London Paddington via Heathrow Airport to Oxford, or destinations on East West Rail (semi-fast)
    • Electric, 8 cars to Oxford
    • Creates a direct Heathrow Airport-Oxford rail link.
  • 1tph Gatwick Airport to Bedwyn
    • Diesel, 3-4 cars or Electric, 4 cars
    • Links services together operated by similar diesel rolling stock and provides links such as Newbury to Guildford
  • 1tph Gatwick Airport to Westbury
    • Diesel, 3-4 cars or Electric, 4 cars
    • Links services together operated by similar diesel rolling stock and provides links such as Newbury to Guildford
  • 1tph Guildford to Basingstoke
    • Diesel, 3-4 cars or Electric, 4 cars
    • Although the Basingstoke line is planned to be electrified, this pairing would be a good match for train type and length and would allow some new direct journey opportunities such as Wokingham-Basingstoke.

In the above scenarios , the following services would continue to
terminate at Reading:
• 4tph London Paddington Crossrail – Reading
• 3tph London Waterloo – Reading (as per Wessex Route Study
ITSS).
To deliver the optimal provision of train services detailed analysis of
both market requirements and the operational feasibility will be
required.
 

HSTEd

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Be interested to see how much filtering they need if they get rid of the big fat copper coil between the power electronics and the supply.

Work on these schemes is also proceeding for use in last stage distribution transformers, as it is believed with careful design you can make it more efficient than a simple transformer since you will have reduced iron losses in the transformer core.

It is believed that with the proper design not only will the 'PETT' (Power Electronic Traction Transformer) not require filtering equipment between it and the line supply, it will be able to provide or drain Vars from the supply, improving its power factor performance. After all it is switching at a frequency at least a hundred times the line frequency which means it should be able to manage a nicely controlled input without flooding harmonics into the line.
That has important results for resistive losses in the line and on the requirement for special Power Factor Correction equipment in substations.

It also makes 3ph-1ph converters for traction substations far more practical. Which has important implications for electrification in rural areas.
Re SiC: I remember seeing an article many years ago about Siemens using high frequency up conversion of mains to reduce transformer mass. Has it been implemented on any train? Tram-trains are an obvious application.

ABB has a trial Silicon IGBT based system operating on a shunter in Switzerland under 15kV 16.7Hz supplies. The savings are especially big there because of the relatively low voltage (making it easier to build the switch) and low frequency which leads to huge transformer masses.

SiC transistors are now arriving and will make those schemes far more economical and practical.
It could lead to yet another jump in the maximum practical electric locomotive power, which current stands at something like 10MW at the rail.
 
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Ironside

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It could lead to yet another jump in the maximum practical electric locomotive power, which current stands at something like 10MW at the rail.

So could that mean faster acellerating trains, with a higher top speed, and more energy efficient too?
 

davetheguard

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"Western Route Study Draft October 2014"

Does anyone have a link to this document, please?
 
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