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Great Western Electrification Progress

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LNW-GW Joint

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Bristol Brum might come later but Brum Derby and Brum Nuneaton is fairly high up the study list.

And yet there are hardly any of today's services which would benefit from those two.
You'd end up with a lot of splitting at New St which isn't very clever.
Nuneaton would relieve the Coventry route though, but you'd have to go on to Wigston to get any real benefit.
Maybe it ties in with the plan for Tamworth locals.
 
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Olaf

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UK Government borrowing is not 'out of control' or at particularily dangerous levels.
We could keep goign like this for another five years or more without serious risk of default.

It's not about default, it is about being able to continue funding current expenditure. And yes, unfortunately it is out of control.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Yes, of course you are correct. It is a pity that people keep trying to bring in national politics.

It is nothing about politics either; it concerns the funding of both this project and other NR projects.
 
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HSTEd

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It's not about default, it is about being able to continue funding current expenditure.
Yes, and unless there is a significant risk of default current expenditure can be supported for years at this rate of debt growth.
Bond yields remain absurdly low, despite the growing debt burden, and bond auctions are still massively oversubscribed.

There is no reason to believe borrowing costs are going to increase significantly in the forseable future - and debt servicing is not a large fraction of government spending (it is under 10%).

And yes, unfortunately it is out of control.
If it is out of control why is the chancellor peddling pre election tax cuts?
If you look at his fiscal decision making it appears to be repeated attempts to make the deficit worse so he can justify additional welfare cuts and budget selloffs of state assets, including assets essential to national defence such as the national defence pipeline infrastructure.
Or selling off the Royal Mail for such a low price that it actually make the Government's fiscal position worse.

Tax receipts are increasing at ~3.7% per annum which should allow the deficit to be cut in half in two years time even without additional cuts, two years after that you could protect a small budget surplus.
 
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Olaf

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Yes, and unless there is a significant risk of default current expenditure can be supported for years at this rate of debt growth.

Unfortunately that is not the case. Interest rates will rise in the near future. The UK has already passed it's credit limit and is living on borrowed time.


Bond yields remain absurdly low, despite the growing debt burden, and bond auctions are still massively oversubscribed.

They will not remain low.


If it is out of control why is the chancellor peddling pre election tax cuts?
If you look at his fiscal decision making it appears to be repeated attempts to make the deficit worse.

Yes, he has not delivered on getting Government spending back in line. I think you missed the details on the proposed cuts, which start at £25B.


Tax receipts are increasing at ~3.7% per annum.

Your figures are out of date.

I don't think it essential to try and convince you that there is a problem; if you do not want to believe that there is a problem that is fine, however it is not a point a view shared by those in either central Government circles nor involved in the markets. The scale of the problem we are facing is probably greater than that of the first round and potentially more devastating.

The immediate problem is that the GWML Electrification is going over budget. Either additional funds are made available to NR in order to complete the project as is, or cuts to the project, and/or other projects will have to be made. On top of that, there is a good chance that this or a future Government will have to claw-back part of the existing funding to NR in order to bring central Government expenditure under control. There are no ifs or buts about that now.
 
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HSTEd

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Unfortunately that is not the case. Interest rates will rise in the near future. The UK has already passed it's credit limit and is living on borrowed time.
There is no 'credit limit' to pass - and even if there was it is likely to be far greater than the mere 76.5% of GDP we are at now.
Japan has sustained rates of something like 200% of GDP for years and its interest rates are comparable to Britain's.

They will not remain low.
Why won't they? There is no significant reason for rates to increase - people still want to buy government bonds and bond auctions continue to be hugely oversubscribed.
The majority of government borrowing is on very long terms (on order of 30 years) which means that even if the bond vigilantes were to double the interest rates they wanted tommorow it would still take years for this to have a significant impact on the debt burden.

Yes, he has not delivered on getting Government spending back in line. I think you missed the details on the proposed cuts, which start at £25B.
He hasn't delivered because of the panic cuts in 2010 - he managed to create a second crash simply by ranting that it was going to be painful.
If he had done nothign the deficit would be almost gone by now.
The Conservative party was elected with the intention it would smash the state, the 'deficit crisis' was merely an excuse.
Cutting welfare like he proposes is almost impossible - it will reduce consumer spending by roughly £25bn which will cause a drop in tax receipts and loss of jobs which will cause welfare spending to increase.
Its basically Jevon's Paradox in reverse.
Saving money does not net save you money, or if it does it saves you far less than you might expect.

however it is not a point a view shared by those in either central Government circles nor involved in the markets.
If anyone in Government was concerned why did Osborne announce tax cuts rather than actually attempting to raise any revenue?
Taxation is actually at a relatively low percentage of GDP and continues to fall as they take the axe to a wide variety of taxes and keep hiking the Income Tax threshold.
If we are in so much trouble was has the 'triple lock' on pensions not been abandoned and a 1% rise or total freeze been implemented?
That alone would save billions every year.
Or why do the markets continue to buy long term government debt with 30 year terms and lock in very low interest rates for the entire term?
If they thought there was going to be major rate rises you would see the interest on short term bonds drop and that on long term ones begin to rise as they become undersubscribed.
Or you would see a reduction in the number of long term bonds that managed to get sold at auction.

None of these things has happened.

The scale of the problem we are facing is probably greater than that of the first round and potentially more devastating.
The first round wasn't actually that bad.
The second round created by Osborne/Cameron's rhetoric and state-smashing in 2010 has been by far the more problematic.

Anyway - enough of that.
Back on topic.

The immediate problem is that the GWML Electrification is going over budget. Either additional funds are made available to NR in order to complete the project as is, or cuts to the project, and/or other projects will have to be made. On top of that, there is a good chance that this or a future Government will have to claw-back part of the existing funding to NR in order to bring central Government expenditure under control. There are no ifs or buts about that now.

What is likely to happen is that the currently committed projects will be completed basically in full. But that there will not be another upgrade, that is not already committed, approved for a decade or more.
The political cost of cancelling upgrades while pushing through HS2 is too large.
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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It's illuminating to read the detail in Roger Ford's piece on Network Rail's funding now being on the government's books (October Modern Railways).
Irrespective of the overall health of the public finances, the DfT has clearly capped NR expenditure and is applying annual reviews, just like any other government agency.
The person responsible to the Treasury for this in DfT is Philip Rutnam, the Permanent Secretary, not a junior clerk.
While this is nothing specifically to do with the electrification projects, you can be sure DfT (with the ORR) is keeping a very close eye on CP5 expenditure.
Increased costs and delays will not be nodded through.
The HLOS/SofA also had an absolute ceiling for CP5 costs over the 5-year period.
That will also come to bite planning as CP5 counts down.
 

edwin_m

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And yet there are hardly any of today's services which would benefit from those two.
You'd end up with a lot of splitting at New St which isn't very clever.
Nuneaton would relieve the Coventry route though, but you'd have to go on to Wigston to get any real benefit.
Maybe it ties in with the plan for Tamworth locals.

Birmingham-Derby would benefit the hourly Birmingham-Nottingham, but you'd have to continue to Severn Tunnel Junction to benefit anything else and that would be only the hourly Nottingham-Cardiff. Then adding Gloucester to Westerleigh and a link northwards from Sheffield would allow some of the Voyager routes to go over to electric.
 

Grumpy

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The person responsible to the Treasury for this in DfT is Philip Rutnam, the Permanent Secretary, not a junior clerk.
.

Presumably the guy responsible for committing hundreds of millions to rent new electric trains before he knew the cost of electrifying the line to run them on.
The contractors cant lose out and can pile on the costs, GWML has to be electrified now and Rutnam and the politicians will have to pay up to save face.

Perhaps a junior clerk might not have made such a basic mistake.
 

swt_passenger

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Interesting Tangent - SABRE (Society for All British and irish Road Enthusiasts) have a thread bemoaning the loss of some of the interesting bridges

http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=33517

That is an unusual discussion, isn't it - I wonder if they ever criticise those concrete and steel bridges that come with new motorways, bypasses, flyovers at junctions etc, etc?

[Checks a few random threads...]

Yeah, though not... :roll:
 

LNW-GW Joint

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That is an unusual discussion, isn't it - I wonder if they ever criticise those concrete and steel bridges that come with new motorways, bypasses, flyovers at junctions etc, etc?
[Checks a few random threads...]
Yeah, though not... :roll:

Does anybody miss the old Cow Lane Bridge in Reading?
One of Mr Brunel's lesser masterpieces.
 

455driver

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UK Government borrowing is not 'out of control' or at particularily dangerous levels.
We could keep goign like this for another five years or more without serious risk of default.

And if Liebore get in we will be borrowing for 5 years!
 

GRALISTAIR

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And if Liebore get in we will be borrowing for 5 years!

Sorry political again - but will never forget my late fathers words back in the late 1970s "Gr(aham)alistair, never forget, it is in the Labour Party's DNA - they can not help themselves, Tax, borrow and spend"

Back off politics - the only bright thing is that all parties seem to have seen the light on the benefits of electrification. As a lifelong enthusiast I of course want them to electrify everything possible yesterday. As a realist I will be very happy with a nice steady pace, even if things are cut back slightly, of every single control period some electrification taking place.

I have my wish list (don't we all) but the railways best interest is served by a long steady programme of electrification even if we have some setbacks and cutbacks.
 
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LexyBoy

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Keep in mind that the current government have borrowed four times as much (£600bn) in four years as Labour did in the 13 years before.

Aanyway... not directly electrification, but tracklaying on the viaduct looks near complete (both lines down and ballasted as of this morning). Is it still due to come into use next summer, or will it be earlier?
 

Ironside

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Keep in mind that the current government have borrowed four times as much (£600bn) in four years as Labour did in the 13 years before.

Aanyway... not directly electrification, but tracklaying on the viaduct looks near complete (both lines down and ballasted as of this morning). Is it still due to come into use next summer, or will it be earlier?

I thought it was to be open n the new year, but I can't remember where I read that.
 

swt_passenger

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I thought it was to be open n the new year, but I can't remember where I read that.

Definitely comes into use in the New Year, according to the stage L Network Change Notice, published a few months ago. Jan 2015 sees the viaduct open, platform 3 re-opened, Westbury Line Junction remodelling, and the Festival Line opened as far as the new 'high level junction' (which is towards the top of the eastern ramp up to the viaduct).

The Festival Line underpass, the new Feeder Line chords and their connections into platforms 11 and 12 , and the relief line final remodelling alongside the depot, are planned to be completed during the spring and opened after an Easter blockade.

Obviously that doesn't mean there can't still be some sort of major glitch, but all the indications are that they are on time.

Of course this isn't strictly part of the electrification project although it does seem to keep getting mentioned in the same discussion...
 

HarleyDavidson

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That dive under and linkage could prove very useful for a Basingstoke - North Downs (158/159/165/166) or Waterloo service (subject to Electric Spine & Dual Voltage stock being available) without impinging on FGW mainline.
 

CarltonA

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Thorney Lane and Stoke Poges Lane Bridges in the Slough area will be demolished this winter. A temporary structure is in place at Thorney. I am not looking forward to Stoke Poges Lane being closed between November and April (according to Slough Observer). I'm not sure if the footbridge there will stay.
 
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gwr4090

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Are there any pictures available anywhere showing the design of the OLE structures to be used on the GWML. As I understand, these will mainly be metal cantilevered structures spanning two tracks, but there will also be some rigid portal structures spanning multiple tracks. Use of cable headspans (as per ECML) will be minimal.

David
 

swt_passenger

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Are there any pictures available anywhere showing the design of the OLE structures to be used on the GWML. As I understand, these will mainly be metal cantilevered structures spanning two tracks, but there will also be some rigid portal structures spanning multiple tracks. Use of cable headspans (as per ECML) will be minimal.

You could try the flickr 'reading remodelling' photo pool, here's a few examples:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mark_iliff/14893051161/in/pool-1945836@N21/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnryoo83/13930151570/in/pool-1945836@N21/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/mark_iliff/14896091185/in/pool-1945836@N21/

I believe the four tracks from Airport Junction to Reading at least will be all portals.
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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Are there any pictures available anywhere showing the design of the OLE structures to be used on the GWML. As I understand, these will mainly be metal cantilevered structures spanning two tracks, but there will also be some rigid portal structures spanning multiple tracks. Use of cable headspans (as per ECML) will be minimal.
David

I should think the 4-track section from Airport Jn to west of Didcot and elsewhere will be full portals.
There is a short stretch east of Reading (over the Kennet bridge alongside the gasholders) which seems to be the standard for the bulk of the line.
However, these actually carry double portals which is probably not going to apply in open country.
The steelwork through Reading station is probably not typical of the open route.
I guess we are still waiting for the first portals and wiring to appear.
 

fgwrich

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Could this lead to the GWML Electrification to face further delays?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-29641605

Oxfordshire rail works scaled back after service failure

Network Rail sorry for train delays
Signal problems cause rail delays
Network Rail in record £53m fine

Work on the Great Western mainline through Oxfordshire has been temporarily scaled back after commuters were disrupted by failed signalling.

Network Rail said engineers carrying out piling works had hit a power cable on Monday 6 October which caused the problem.

The firm said: "We have stopped piling until we have reviewed the process that caused the problems."

The work forms part of Network Rail's £1bn rail electrification project.

The power failure resulted in a severely reduced service into Paddington, adding up to an hour to a journey.

Services to and from the west of England, Swansea, Bristol, Oxford, Reading, Cheltenham Spa and Worcester were also affected.
 

swt_passenger

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Could this lead to the GWML Electrification to face further delays?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-29641605

It's a badly written explanation, AIUI the work that is currently suspended is the Balfour Beatty electrification on the Crossrail section that caused the recent signalling problems.

The knock on effects on the day to day service is definitely felt in Oxford - but there's no actual scaling back of works in Oxfordshire as far as I can see.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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It's a badly written explanation, AIUI the work that is currently suspended is the Balfour Beatty electrification on the Crossrail section that caused the recent signalling problems.
The knock on effects on the day to day service is definitely felt in Oxford - but there's no actual scaling back of works in Oxfordshire as far as I can see.

Speculation on the day was that electrification piling had caused the signalling problems near Slough, but that was later discounted on here somewhere.
Now it seems we are back to piling...
 

CardiffKid

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Does anyone know if all four lines between Newport and Cardiff will be electrified or if it will be just two?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Does anyone know if all four lines between Newport and Cardiff will be electrified or if it will be just two?

NR says that "savings have been identified" in the GW electrification programme, but have not clarified what that means.
They've got another year or so before work starts in South Wales.
It would be a pity to de-scope the project, and the cost savings can't be that great once you have got the masts up over all four tracks.
 
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