Great Western Electrification Progress

[HarleyDavidson]

I think to make the Electric Spine viable you'd have to wire up the whole of the SWT + the Great Western patches which have been earmarked for electrification.

 

[Tio Terry]

Electric Spine is far from a goer, it isnt a scheme in itself and still just a concept. I doubt there would be anywhere near enough 92s to accomodate the amount of trains either.

Electric Spine most certainly is a goer, I've done quite a lot of work on it. Lengthening of passing loops, increasing the speed through points associated with those loops, looking at electrification in-fills. Lots of works, it's certainly happening. I deal with Infrastructure, not trains, so cannot comment on availability of 92's.

 

[Class 170101]

Does thisd not depend on finance / cost of projects which as we are seeing in the GW electrification is beginning to. dare I say, balloon. Issues on NW electrification won't help either.

 

[The Planner]

Electric Spine most certainly is a goer, I've done quite a lot of work on it. Lengthening of passing loops, increasing the speed through points associated with those loops, looking at electrification in-fills. Lots of works, it's certainly happening. I deal with Infrastructure, not trains, so cannot comment on availability of 92's.

All the ones I have dealt with are strategic freight network that were committed before Electric Spine got mooted, such as Eastleigh, Oxford, Fenny Compton, Hatton, Dorridge etc...so I assume they have just been rebadged.

 

[swt_passenger]

All the ones I have dealt with are strategic freight network that were committed before Electric Spine got mooted, such as Eastleigh, Oxford, Fenny Compton, Hatton, Dorridge etc...so I assume they have just been rebadged.

They are all still separately described in the CP5 enhancement plans. The 'Strategic Freight Network' stuff is described in a completely different section to Electric Spine.

 

[nw1]

A quick win for less wiring in the short term without upsetting too many people would be to not wire up all the way between Basingstoke and Southampton, although that would depend on the life span of the 3rd rail which would otherwise be replaced (i.e. could it last until CP6).

For Instance, if the wiring only made it to Winchester that would save on several junctions around Eastleigh and Southampton, whilst still allowing NR to see how easy and cost efective it is to replace 3rd rail with OHLE.

Alternatively, the line to Newbury could not be done and the Thames Valley keep a few more DMU's than planned. However, that could lead to a shortage of DMU's elsewhere.

Might that actually be more expensive as it would require a DMU depot in the London area which otherwise would not be needed? (What was the Bedwyn plan btw? ISTR someone saying there'd be London-Westbury "stoppers" run by bi-mode IEPs which would cover Kintbury, Hungerford and Bedwyn)

 

[59CosG95]

Might that actually be more expensive as it would require a DMU depot in the London area which otherwise would not be needed? (What was the Bedwyn plan btw? ISTR someone saying there'd be London-Westbury "stoppers" run by bi-mode IEPs which would cover Kintbury, Hungerford and Bedwyn)

Or better still, why not wire up as far as Bedwyn or even Westbury, and then the Wessex Main Line to Bathampton Jct, for 801 diversions away from the main line in times of disruption.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Or better still, why not wire up as far as Bedwyn or even Westbury, and then the Wessex Main Line to Bathampton Jct, for 801 diversions away from the main line in times of disruption.

Don't be silly now,that is much & far too sensible. Now off you go & take your medication and lie down in a quiet & darkened room.

 

[BantamMenace]

This could bare a huge effect on how the cost side of a BCR is calculated for potential future electrification projects. If all of a sudden the costs double the BCR halves.

 

[dysonsphere]

Well with only 46 92's built how many are running at the moment and of the rest are they fixable. sorry dont know the answer myself.

 

[snowball]

Scotland seems to be doing OK though on the EGIP schemes (with much the same technology).

EGIP had its own round of de-scoping a year or two ago.

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There has been no change to track layout or signalling at Reading, the design is the same as it was before any announcement of Crossrail going all the way to Reading. There has been no change to the original design for Reading Train Care Depot either. The Crossrail stabling facilities at Maidenhead are still going ahead.

I thought dropping the facilities at Maidenhead was supposed to be a benefit of extending Crossrail to Reading?

 

[Olaf]

Basingstoke to Southampton is a separate scheme from GW (Electric Spine between Southampton and Nuneaton) so should have no impact on this scheme.

That is right, except that any GWML electrification budget overrun will lead to cut backs - either to the project itself, or to other projects so that NR stays within its funding allocation limits.

Unless the DfT is prepared to fund the cost increases, which I think is unlikely at this point, there will have to be cuts, postponements, and cancellations somewhere. It gets involved in making the final determination, but impact of delays to specific projects on other work items will be one of the considerations. As it stands, the MML is sufficiently stand-alone to be a prime candidate.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's looking more and more like Cardiff to Swansea will be canned anyway at present

I agree; at the very least it can be be put-back.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think to make the Electric Spine viable you'd have to wire up the whole of the SWT + the Great Western patches which have been earmarked for electrification.

That is not the case.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This could bare a huge effect on how the cost side of a BCR is calculated for potential future electrification projects. If all of a sudden the costs double the BCR halves.

They would certainly have to do far more detailed analysis and planning in future until they have a thorough understanding of the infrastructure for such large projects.

This problem has probably come about because they have to to do a top-level cost estimate but are not able to go into enough detail to make a realistic assessment before giving their costings to the ORR and DfT.

The ORR has made comments in the past about NR not having the necessary detailed knowledge of the current condition of the infrastructure; something it is working on to correct but it seems that they are is still not there. However, that is not the whole story if they have also under-estimated the impact of local planning bureaucracies.

 

[59CosG95]

Don't be silly now,that is much & far too sensible. Now off you go & take your medication and lie down in a quiet & darkened room.

*takes medication and lies down in quiet room*

 

[nw1]

Or better still, why not wire up as far as Bedwyn or even Westbury, and then the Wessex Main Line to Bathampton Jct, for 801 diversions away from the main line in times of disruption.

I certainly don't "get" why Bedwyn isn't the western terminus for electrification, given it's where the London trains turn round at the moment. ISTR there are plans to do it later but why not from the outset?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

It's really stupid to do it at a later date, as it will cost more than if it's included in the original project as its a case of having to start all of the designers, project management, machinery and materials back to the areas and then there's the increased disruption and inconvenience as well.

 

[fgwrich]

I certainly don't "get" why Bedwyn isn't the western terminus for electrification, given it's where the London trains turn round at the moment. ISTR there are plans to do it later but why not from the outset?

It's really stupid to do it at a later date, as it will cost more than if it's included in the original project as its a case of having to start all of the designers, project management, machinery and materials back to the areas and then there's the increased disruption and inconvenience as well.

I've always wondered that too, as it means diesel traction will still have to be used between Newbury and Bedwyn. Unless, the route up to Westbury and onwards to Frome (For the stone traffic from the Somerset quarries) and round to Bathampton Junction become electrified to be used as a diversionary route for the GWML - Allowing electric Thames Valley commuter services to terminate as far out as Westbury.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

I'm not certain & I hope someone who's got a working knowledge of signalling will tell us, but I would have thought that you'd have to bring extra signalling staff in as well to make the necessary changes to the signalling system and install all of the immunisation that's required for electric traction.

 

[deltic08]

I've always wondered that too, as it means diesel traction will still have to be used between Newbury and Bedwyn. Unless, the route up to Westbury and onwards to Frome (For the stone traffic from the Somerset quarries) and round to Bathampton Junction become electrified to be used as a diversionary route for the GWML - Allowing electric Thames Valley commuter services to terminate as far out as Westbury.

Why is it planners and decision-makers always fail to see the bleedin' obvious?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Because you're dealing with the short-sightedness of a privatised industry.

 

[The Planner]

Any new signalling normally goes in immunised regardless of electrifcation now. Not sure why you would need extra staff though and what they would be for.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

That's what I was asking! But you have answered it in one go, by stating that new signalling goes in pre-immunised. I was working under the assumption that if you install electrification later, you'd need to employ more expensive techs to immunise the signalling against electrical interference.

 

[HSTEd]

Because it is not Network Rail's concern to minimise the cost of running the railway as it would have been in the BR era.

If diesel traction is used over that part of the route it is not their problem.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Because it is not Network Rail's concern to minimise the cost of running the railway as it would have been in the BR era.

If diesel traction is used over that part of the route it is not their problem.

It bleedin' well should be of concern. They haven't got an unlimited credit card at their disposal. If they're not careful, they might find that the banks & creditors call time on the colossal amount of debt that NR has.

And where would that leave NR & the rail network as a whole?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

It's really stupid to do it at a later date, as it will cost more than if it's included in the original project as its a case of having to start all of the designers, project management, machinery and materials back to the areas and then there's the increased disruption and inconvenience as well.

I think most on this board would agree. UK Politicians (and let us not kid ourselves it comes down to them in the end) do not think sensibly and long term.

In 1974 after WCML Weaver Jct - Glasgow had been completed, common sense would have said do Carstairs-Edinburgh after. But no, that had to wait until many years later. I could go on and on. Commonsense would have also said do Preston-Blackpool, Wigan-Liverpool, Euxton Jct - Manchester as part of the WCML electrification extension. So much cheaper and easier in the long run.

 

[Class 170101]

It bleedin' well should be of concern. They haven't got an unlimited credit card at their disposal. If they're not careful, they might find that the banks & creditors call time on the colossal amount of debt that NR has.

And where would that leave NR & the rail network as a whole?

Well the credit card has been cut up as of September 1 2014. The debt is now on the government's books though they are trying to find a way of shifting it off the balance sheet again.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Well the credit card has been cut up as of September 1 2014. The debt is now on the government's books though they are trying to find a way of shifting it off the balance sheet again.

What a surprise! NOT! :roll:

 

[adrock1976]

I think most on this board would agree. UK Politicians (and let us not kid ourselves it comes down to them in the end) do not think sensibly and long term.

In 1974 after WCML Weaver Jct - Glasgow had been completed, common sense would have said do Carstairs-Edinburgh after. But no, that had to wait until many years later. I could go on and on. Commonsense would have also said do Preston-Blackpool, Wigan-Liverpool, Euxton Jct - Manchester as part of the WCML electrification extension. So much cheaper and easier in the long run.

Not also forgetting if the City Union Railway was electrified between Shields Road and Bellgrove at the time, Glasgow Crossrail would have been up and running soon after.

In peace

Adam

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Not also forgetting if the City Union Railway was electrified between Shields Road and Bellgrove at the time, Glasgow Crossrail would have been up and running soon after.

In peace

Adam

Exactly -another good example

 

[edwin_m]

Any new signalling normally goes in immunised regardless of electrifcation now. Not sure why you would need extra staff though and what they would be for.

And any existing signalling that hasn't been immunised needs to be either immunised or replaced, and the cost of immunisation is a large portion of the cost of replacement. This is another constraint on planning the electrification programme as it needs a lot of time, money and scarce resources. It is best to electrify lines that either have been re-signalled fairly recently with immune equipment, or are due for re-signalling so that new immune equipment can be installed.

 

[AM9]

And any existing signalling that hasn't been immunised needs to be either immunised or replaced, and the cost of immunisation is a large portion of the cost of replacement. This is another constraint on planning the electrification programme as it needs a lot of time, money and scarce resources. It is best to electrify lines that either have been re-signalled fairly recently with immune equipment, or are due for re-signalling so that new immune equipment can be installed.

I suspect that contemporary signalling systems are modular by design and are approved for use with ac and DC with the appropriate immunity built in.
Signalling has to conform to the EMC directive anyway so immunity will have been designed in from scratch.