Great Western Electrification Progress

[jimm]

All fair points but I still wonder about what I termed 'rest of the day'. To justify electrification, one normally needs a heavy 'shopping. business and other' traffic (and both directions) to justify about four trains an hour. Is it likely that such traffic is possible west of Newbury?

As things stand, I can't see wires west of Bedwyn making sense, unless other factors come into play, such as:

An electrified alternative route to Bristol is deemed of overwhelming strategic importance, however few trains actually use it at first - and serving Pewsey and Westbury will never justify an extension of the GW commuter services by themselves.

Wires are extended past Westbury to allow all-electric operation of stone traffic direct from the quarries to Acton, etc - this one would probably be a clincher by itself, but the freight operators and quarries would presumably lean on the government to foot most of the bill, rather than rushing out to acquire new heavy-haul electrics by themselves.

More bi-mode IEPs are ordered for the GW West Country services with an extension to Westbury or beyond (they are designed to change traction mode on the move) giving substantial extra mileage on electric power.

They haven't started yet, except for those around Reading linked to the station rebuild and new depot.
There are some trial foundations around Pangbourne.
The arrival of the "big machines" is eagerly awaited.
Nobody seems to know where they will start work.

It's likely that they will start out somewhere between Reading, Didcot and Swindon, where there's lots of nice easy plain line and not many stations/junctions to work on. This section has also been suggested as a likely place to run the prototype IEPs at top speed, so early wiring would be needed to allow this to happen.

 

[33Hz]

They haven't started yet, except for those around Reading linked to the station rebuild and new depot.
There are some trial foundations around Pangbourne.
The arrival of the "big machines" is eagerly awaited.
Nobody seems to know where they will start work.

I realise they haven't started the work proper, but I read about Reading and can't find any pics of the work there, save for a few hastily-shot camera phone pics from train windows. There's certainly nothing back up this thread.

If anyone has any links they would be much appreciated

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

You should see some pictures in these threads:

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=6405.1275

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=80190&highlight=reading&page=2

 

[33Hz]

Thanks.

Pity about the webcams.

 

[TheWalrus]

All fair points but I still wonder about what I termed 'rest of the day'. To justify electrification, one normally needs a heavy 'shopping. business and other' traffic (and both directions) to justify about four trains an hour. Is it likely that such traffic is possible west of Newbury?

Probably not but with the hourly intercity to Plymouth, the freight and if an hourly semi-fast was introduced that would be 3tph off-peak potentially.

The ratio of wiring to Westbury was poor because they don't send many services there! However Pewsey, Westbury and Castle Cary deserve a much better service, especially if Bedwyn and Kintbury justify an hourly service.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Let's not forget NSE went as far as Exeter on the West of England so why couldn't they have done that on the B&H?

Thinking about the points made, how does one envisage such a service as this

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P70093/2014/01/09/advanced

operating, as it starts from Frome and is clearly a luxury commuter train. Should electrification schemes be based on the one or two commuter services per day that are laid on for a few office managers who want to live away from what they regard as the riff raff? What about the rest of the day?

I don't know if anyone actually uses it to Frome, but there are a lot of commuters from Pewsey and I imagine Westbury also.

 

[Rich McLean]

Probably not but with the hourly intercity to Plymouth, the freight and if an hourly semi-fast was introduced that would be 3tph off-peak potentially.

The ratio of wiring to Westbury was poor because they don't send many services there! However Pewsey, Westbury and Castle Cary deserve a much better service, especially if Bedwyn and Kintbury justify an hourly service.

When IEP comes in, Exeter should get an hourly semi fast, calling at Tiverton PW, Taunton, Castle Cary, Westbury, Pewsey, Newbury, Reading and Pad, while those from Plymouth & Cornwall are all non-stop Taunton - Reading (with one or two non stop Exeter - Reading, as now). So they should then have an hourly service, which in turn will speed up the HSTs

 

[Peter Mugridge]

They haven't started yet, except for those around Reading linked to the station rebuild and new depot.
There are some trial foundations around Pangbourne.
The arrival of the "big machines" is eagerly awaited.
Nobody seems to know where they will start work.

If you mean the high output electrification thingy, that's going to start at Airport Junction and work westwards.

 

[TheWalrus]

I agree. Add on Bedwyn, Hungerford and Kintbury and scrap near empty services between Newbury-Bedwyn. On a different note I'd like to see Wellington and Cullompton reopened and there have been calls for these by locals.

 

[anthony263]

Probably not but with the hourly intercity to Plymouth, the freight and if an hourly semi-fast was introduced that would be 3tph off-peak potentially.

The ratio of wiring to Westbury was poor because they don't send many services there! However Pewsey, Westbury and Castle Cary deserve a much better service, especially if Bedwyn and Kintbury justify an hourly service.

I agree about your last point about Pewsey Westbury etc justifying a much more regular service than they do currently.

With Westbury now having a more regular service to Swindon and hopefully to Salisbury & Weymouth in the future there may well be more passengers wanting to change at Westbury for a service to Reading & London.

 

[TheWalrus]

Exactly, maybe passengers from Trowbridge, Warminster etc would change to the London service at Westbury?

 

[Rich McLean]

I agree. Add on Bedwyn, Hungerford and Kintbury and scrap near empty services between Newbury-Bedwyn. On a different note I'd like to see Wellington and Cullompton reopened and there have been calls for these by locals.

Solution to the problem would be this:

Stopping: Newbury - All Shacks - Reading - London Paddingon (EMU) 1tph

Semi-Fast: Exeter St Davids - Tiverton Parkway - Taunton - Castle Cary- Frome - Westbury - Pewsey - Bedwyn (1tp2h) - Hungerford - Knitbury (1tp2h) - Newbury, Reading and London Paddington (IEP/HST) (1tph)

Fast: Cornwall/Plymouth - (Ivybridge) - Totnes* - Newton Abbot - Exeter St Davids - Tiverton Parkway (1tp2h) - Taunton* - Reading - London Paddington (HST) (1tph)

*The WoE HSTs from Devon and Cornwall would all run express from Taunton to Reading, with a few headline services missing out Totnes, Taunton and in some cases Newton Abbot (as the 1044 off Plymouth does). Taunton would still have 2tph to London most of the day. Tiverton Parkway 1.5 trains per hour, with every other WoE service calling there.

The Semi Fast from Exeter, would wait at Westbury or Frome for the fast to pass, where the semi fast would follow it, and at Newbury, the stopper would then follow the Semi fast, which by the time the stopper reaches Reading, the next fast HST will be right behind it.

 

[Eagle]

I don't know if anyone actually uses it to Frome, but there are a lot of commuters from Pewsey and I imagine Westbury also.

Loads use it to Frome; Frome is a much larger town than Westbury. I'd suggest any semifast IC service that goes this way has to call at Frome.

People unfamiliar with non-railway geography often overestimate the importance of Westbury as a place; it's actually quite a small town (with lots of industrial estates for some reason) that's overshadowed by its near neighbours Frome, Trowbridge and Warminster. And Westbury station isn't even really in the town; it's at the northern edge of the industrial zone. Some parts of the town proper are closer to Dilton Marsh station (not that any Westburyite would ever use that station to travel to London of course).

 

[Rich McLean]

Loads use it to Frome; Frome is a much larger town than Westbury. I'd suggest any semifast IC service that goes this way has to call at Frome.

People unfamiliar with non-railway geography often overestimate the importance of Westbury as a place; it's actually quite a small town (with lots of industrial estates for some reason) that's overshadowed by its near neighbours Frome, Trowbridge and Warminster. And Westbury station isn't even really in the town; it's at the northern edge of the industrial zone. Some parts of the town proper are closer to Dilton Marsh station (not that any Westburyite would ever use that station to travel to London of course).

Edited my post above to reflect the Frome Situation

 

[edwin_m]

People unfamiliar with non-railway geography often overestimate the importance of Westbury as a place; it's actually quite a small town (with lots of industrial estates for some reason) that's overshadowed by its near neighbours Frome, Trowbridge and Warminster. And Westbury station isn't even really in the town; it's at the northern edge of the industrial zone. Some parts of the town proper are closer to Dilton Marsh station (not that any Westburyite would ever use that station to travel to London of course).

True, and oddly enough if the station was on the avoiding line it would be much closer to the town than the current site, though it couldn't be served by north-south trains (and before anyone bites I'm not suggesting it!).

However by virtue of being a junction it does offer a range of useful connections including Frome via the Weymouth service. I haven't looked at how well these work in current timetables but the potential is there.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If you mean the high output electrification thingy, that's going to start at Airport Junction and work westwards.

Could be, but as I understand it Amey will be using the HOPS west of Maidenhead.
Airport Jn to Maidenhead (the Crossrail-related bit) is Balfour Beatty and there was some reference to them using their own systems for this.
"On site works start in December" the press release said.
So there ought to be two lots of work starting very soon.

 

[TheWalrus]

I agree. Add on Bedwyn, Hungerford and Kintbury and scrap near empty services between Newbury-Bedwyn. On a different note I'd like to see Wellington and Cullompton reopened and there have been calls for these by locals.

Solution to the problem would be this:

Stopping: Newbury - All Shacks - Reading - London Paddingon (EMU) 1tph

Semi-Fast: Exeter St Davids - Tiverton Parkway - Taunton - Castle Cary- Frome - Westbury - Pewsey - Bedwyn (1tp2h) - Hungerford - Knitbury (1tp2h) - Newbury, Reading and London Paddington (IEP/HST) (1tph)

Fast: Cornwall/Plymouth - (Ivybridge) - Totnes* - Newton Abbot - Exeter St Davids - Tiverton Parkway (1tp2h) - Taunton* - Reading - London Paddington (HST) (1tph)

*The WoE HSTs from Devon and Cornwall would all run express from Taunton to Reading, with a few headline services missing out Totnes, Taunton and in some cases Newton Abbot (as the 1044 off Plymouth does). Taunton would still have 2tph to London most of the day. Tiverton Parkway 1.5 trains per hour, with every other WoE service calling there.

The Semi Fast from Exeter, would wait at Westbury or Frome for the fast to pass, where the semi fast would follow it, and at Newbury, the stopper would then follow the Semi fast, which by the time the stopper reaches Reading, the next fast HST will be right behind it.

That's a well thought out idea and I largely agree with it. However there may be a few problems:

- calling at Frome takes up a lot of time, also the single line is a constraint and could clash with the Weymouths. I would probably try and connect with the Weymouths at Westbury/Castle Cary or provide a shuttle. Ultimately I have previously proposed a Frome Parkway station on the main lines to give Frome a much better mainline service, but I'm not quite sure how it would work.
- Having the fast overtake at Frome/Westbury would reduce potential use for longer distance travellers so could reduce potential market. When the 180s operated the service they often ran nearly full. It would also increase running time of the service so costing more for staff and possibly units. I would sugeest running it 20-30 minutes behind the fast with IEP it should be manageable.
- Finally if Bedwyn was reduced to 1tp2h the locals would go up in arms again like what happened in 2006, forcing you to call there. Also Bedwyn has reasonable growth now with over 100000 passengers per year, so keeping a regular service would probably be a good idea, but limited car parking I believe may be suppressing demand.

 

[Rich McLean]

That's a well thought out idea and I largely agree with it. However there may be a few problems:

- calling at Frome takes up a lot of time, also the single line is a constraint and could clash with the Weymouths. I would probably try and connect with the Weymouths at Westbury/Castle Cary or provide a shuttle. Ultimately I have previously proposed a Frome Parkway station on the main lines to give Frome a much better mainline service, but I'm not quite sure how it would work.
- Having the fast overtake at Frome/Westbury would reduce potential use for longer distance travellers so could reduce potential market. When the 180s operated the service they often ran nearly full. It would also increase running time of the service so costing more for staff and possibly units. I would sugeest running it 20-30 minutes behind the fast with IEP it should be manageable.
- Finally if Bedwyn was reduced to 1tp2h the locals would go up in arms again like what happened in 2006, forcing you to call there. Also Bedwyn has reasonable growth now with over 100000 passengers per year, so keeping a regular service would probably be a good idea, but limited car parking I believe may be suppressing demand.

So make Bedwyn hourly in that case and take out the Frome call from the Semi Fasts.
Also are you suggesting, that some of the fasts call at Westbury, as of now?

 

[HowardGWR]

So make Bedwyn hourly in that case and take out the Frome call from the Semi Fasts.
Also are you suggesting, that some of the fasts call at Westbury, as of now?

I would like to see the evidence that such a large range of services would stack up on BCR grounds. Remember the debate here is about how one would justify electrification of the 'direct' line to Taunton. Clearly one could run all these trains but would they be carrying anyone?

As an extra point, running trains (as some services already do) via Bristol (the Great Way Round) is likely to be more commercially viable, and can be made faster (!), than through the wilds of Somerset and Wiltshire. The Bristol Avoiding Line could be resurrected by just knocking down a bowling alley and a Krispy Kreme!

Excuse the hyperbole about the mid west, but the area is a bit like that, let's be honest.

 

[BantamMenace]

Anyone got potential journey times for Pad to Taunton via castle Cary and via Bristol so we can compare?

 

[Rich McLean]

I would like to see the evidence that such a large range of services would stack up on BCR grounds. Remember the debate here is about how one would justify electrification of the 'direct' line to Taunton. Clearly one could run all these trains but would they be carrying anyone?

As an extra point, running trains (as some services already do) via Bristol (the Great Way Round) is likely to be more commercially viable, and can be made faster (!), than through the wilds of Somerset and Wiltshire. The Bristol Avoiding Line could be resurrected by just knocking down a bowling alley and a Krispy Kreme!

Excuse the hyperbole about the mid west, but the area is a bit like that, let's be honest.

Some services could go that way, however, they would have to be IEP, especially with 7tph between Didcot and Swindon already, apart from Sundays when there will be less traffic. Also, it would need to be 125mph Taunton - Bristol, but then stoppers would slow the fasts down. Also would the magical 3hr time be achieved from Plymouth, stopping only at Exeter and Reading by going via Bristol, somehow I doubt it very much.

It maybe more commercially viable, but a lot of the Devon and Cornwall HSTs are busy already. On 1A80 yesterday, people were standing from Taunton through to Reading non-stop via Bristol and Box Tunnel, which took 1hr 40 minutes. Imagine if these also made stops at Bristol, they would be rammed.

 

[TheWalrus]

That's a well thought out idea and I largely agree with it. However there may be a few problems:

- calling at Frome takes up a lot of time, also the single line is a constraint and could clash with the Weymouths. I would probably try and connect with the Weymouths at Westbury/Castle Cary or provide a shuttle. Ultimately I have previously proposed a Frome Parkway station on the main lines to give Frome a much better mainline service, but I'm not quite sure how it would work.
- Having the fast overtake at Frome/Westbury would reduce potential use for longer distance travellers so could reduce potential market. When the 180s operated the service they often ran nearly full. It would also increase running time of the service so costing more for staff and possibly units. I would sugeest running it 20-30 minutes behind the fast with IEP it should be manageable.
- Finally if Bedwyn was reduced to 1tp2h the locals would go up in arms again like what happened in 2006, forcing you to call there. Also Bedwyn has reasonable growth now with over 100000 passengers per year, so keeping a regular service would probably be a good idea, but limited car parking I believe may be suppressing demand.

So make Bedwyn hourly in that case and take out the Frome call from the Semi Fasts.
Also are you suggesting, that some of the fasts call at Westbury, as of now?

No. Calling fasts at Westbury as well as an hourly semi-fast would split passengers between two services when really we need to concentrate as many Westbury passengers onto the semi-fast as possible as this is what will really help the business case for running west of Bedwyn.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
They would carry people, when I used to use the few services that ran loadings were reasonable but an HST is capacity overkill. 4-5 car units would be more suitable. For example when I counted just standard passengers on what was the 0818 from Paddington to Exeter, on departure from Bedwyn there were 64 one time and 92 another, and that's on the quieter part of the route. That doesn't include the amount of people getting off at Newbury, Hungerford or Bedwyn or anyone joining at Pewsey or beyond. So the total amount of passengers would be far greater for the entire journey. It also does not include scope for growth as growth is fairly rapid ad it is, I would imagine it would accelerate if a regular interval service was introduced, as is the case on TPE and London-Crewe.

 

[HowardGWR]

Anyone got potential journey times for Pad to Taunton via castle Cary and via Bristol so we can compare?

City of Truro 3440 and Duke of Connaught 3065 in 1904. Time 223 mins including an engine change at Pylle Hill. Never more than almost equalled by more modern and powerful steam engines via Bedwyn and Castle Cary in 1925. (time from Plymouth of course).

HST Trains diverted via Bristol from Taunton arriving in Reading before they were supposed to via the 'direct route'.

I take on board the comment about Taunton to Bristol being also a commuter route but that is what some of you are putting forward for all these semi fasts via Westbury or its cut-off.

 

[Rich McLean]

Anyone got potential journey times for Pad to Taunton via castle Cary and via Bristol so we can compare?

1A80: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P70107/2013/12/28/advanced via Bristol non Stop TAU-RDG

1A16: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P70034/2014/02/17/advanced via Bristol stopping BRI, BTH, CPM, SWI, RDG

1A74: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P70095/2014/02/17/advanced via B&H non stop TAU-RDG

via B&H is around 20 minutes faster. So with even 125mph TAU-BRI running via Bristol, its a tall order shaving off 20 minutes

 

[edwin_m]

No. Calling fasts at Westbury as well as an hourly semi-fast would split passengers between two services when really we need to concentrate as many Westbury passengers onto the semi-fast as possible as this is what will really help the business case for running west of Bedwyn.

It's fair enough to argue, as you don't, that taking out Westbury stops would be justified by benefits to longer distance passengers. But it is not reasonable to suggest, as you do, that these passengers should be forced onto a slower service simply in order to justify providing that service.

Part of the business case process is to consider a range of alternatives so as to be sure that what is proposed is the most cost-effective option. In this case any half decent business case would include looking at the option of keeping the Westbury stops in the fasts. So any attempt to cheat the process in that way is unlikely to succeed.

 

[The Planner]

That 1A80 schedule has 9 minutes pathing and 2 random performance minutes in it, so if it got a clean schedule that is 11 minutes off it straight away making the difference 9. Taunton to Bristol is around 40 ish miles without checking? you are going to need more than 125mph to close that gap over that distance.

 

[BantamMenace]

140mph running west of reading would aid the case for going via Bristol also, admittedly some years off

 

[The Planner]

You'll need a lot of it and non stop running to make a real dent. You need 19-20 miles of 140 v 125 to save a minute.

 

[HowardGWR]

You'll need a lot of it and non stop running to make a real dent. You need 19-20 miles of 140 v 125 to save a minute.

Taunton to Bristol 45 miles, taken in 30 mins by a Voyager as I recently reported and that on the day of the disruptions. Oh and start to stop. Brunel's way was the best.

 

[TheWalrus]

No. Calling fasts at Westbury as well as an hourly semi-fast would split passengers between two services when really we need to concentrate as many Westbury passengers onto the semi-fast as possible as this is what will really help the business case for running west of Bedwyn.

It's fair enough to argue, as you don't, that taking out Westbury stops would be justified by benefits to longer distance passengers. But it is not reasonable to suggest, as you do, that these passengers should be forced onto a slower service simply in order to justify providing that service.

Part of the business case process is to consider a range of alternatives so as to be sure that what is proposed is the most cost-effective option. In this case any half decent business case would include looking at the option of keeping the Westbury stops in the fasts. So any attempt to cheat the process in that way is unlikely to succeed.

Why is that "unreasonable"?

Part of the case for introducing Exeter semi-fasts would be to speed up the fasts. Why would Westbury need fasts calling if there was an hourly semi-fast service?

 

[455driver]

HST Trains diverted via Bristol from Taunton arriving in Reading before they were supposed to via the 'direct route'.

Really!
I dont think so!