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Great Western Electrification Progress

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NSEFAN

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LNW-GW Joint said:
Can you see 140mph being allowed through platforms (eg Slough, Twyford etc)?
If not that wipes out many stretches east of Didcot.
The Reading-Cholsey section may also be too bendy for 140mph.
And the current 125mph profile ends at the Cotswold tunnels (Box, Badminton).

NR's efforts so far on ETCS seem to be very tentative and cautious.
I know TASS works well on the WCML which I suppose is similar to the Acela setup, but that only goes up to 125mph and is within normal signal sighting.
ETCS may have the potential to do what you say but has NR got the bottle to do 140mph intermingled with classic traffic on the overlayed system?

Prospects might be better on the ECML where they are intending to go straight to ETCS without the overlay (and the route is more suited to 140mph running).
My understanding was that the GWML is generally quite straight, making high speeds relatively easy to obtain?

Assuming extra turbulence from the increased speed is the problem here, how much worse will it be from the step up to 140mph from 125?
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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My understanding was that the GWML is generally quite straight, making high speeds relatively easy to obtain?

Assuming extra turbulence from the increased speed is the problem here, how much worse will it be from the step up to 140mph from 125?

It is certainly quite straight, but not without the odd bend, especially near the Thames west of Reading.
Turbulence is one thing, but a larger swept envelope at the higher speed is another.
A safety case will have to be established for 140mph running, and I can't see the RSSB being too relaxed about the higher speed.
 

LE Greys

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It is certainly quite straight, but not without the odd bend, especially near the Thames west of Reading.
Turbulence is one thing, but a larger swept envelope at the higher speed is another.
A safety case will have to be established for 140mph running, and I can't see the RSSB being too relaxed about the higher speed.

155mph is theoretically possible on 'Brunel's Billiard Table', especially since there is extra clearance between the lines thanks to them once being broad gauge. There was some consideration to running IC250 on the route at one point, so they looked into it. However, it would not apply to the Berks & Hants, the South Devon or Cornish sections, which require tilt for any significant speed improvements.
 

jimm

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155mph is theoretically possible on 'Brunel's Billiard Table', especially since there is extra clearance between the lines thanks to them once being broad gauge. There was some consideration to running IC250 on the route at one point, so they looked into it. However, it would not apply to the Berks & Hants, the South Devon or Cornish sections, which require tilt for any significant speed improvements.

Don't know where you get the idea there is extra clearance between the lines. There are a few places where this is the case as a legacy of broad gauge, such as Moreton-in-Marsh station, where the platforms still sit on the original foundations from the 1850s, so there is a wide gap between the tracks, and odd bits of line here and there, eg some of the Didcot-Oxford section, but in most places track renewals, plus platform rebuilding, bridge replacement, etc, over the years mean track in the GW area has ended up being laid to typical network spacings, rather than with a wide gap between.
 

LE Greys

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Don't know where you get the idea there is extra clearance between the lines. There are a few places where this is the case as a legacy of broad gauge, such as Moreton-in-Marsh station, where the platforms still sit on the original foundations from the 1850s, so there is a wide gap between the tracks, and odd bits of line here and there, eg some of the Didcot-Oxford section, but in most places track renewals, plus platform rebuilding, bridge replacement, etc, over the years mean track in the GW area has ended up being laid to typical network spacings, rather than with a wide gap between.

Various experiences with Didcot. There are still several surviving Super Saloons there, and up until about 1980, they used to make occasional forays onto the network. These would be out of gauge anywhere but former BG lines (being 9ft 7in wide). There are places where modern structures have intruded into the loading gauge, especially the electrified section east of Airport Junction. I haven't had a look at the new Reading yet, but I suspect certain bits of signalling equipment may have tightened up the loading gauge there as well.

However, I'm almost certain, the majority of the plain line sections still have broad gauge spacing. Why move the lines? The additional width isn't really a handicap, and has several advantages in that it should make single line working safer if there is engineering work going on.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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However, I'm almost certain, the majority of the plain line sections still have broad gauge spacing. Why move the lines? The additional width isn't really a handicap, and has several advantages in that it should make single line working safer if there is engineering work going on.

At Twyford, I think the broad gauge tracks are now the relief lines.
The newer main lines are curved round platforms to the south.
Much the same at Reading, where old P8/9 were the broad gauge platforms.
In old pictures of Sonning cutting, the original broad gauge lines went through the middle span of the bridges, with the extra lines being put through adjacent arches on curved alignments.
Bridges are now being rebuilt for electrification etc, but I remember reading somewhere that the modern GW had one of the smallest structure clearances of all the main lines on its 4-track sections.
 

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When was the GW main line 4 tracked? Before or after Broad Gauge?

Any 4 tracking carried out would, I think, have been carried out in the post BG era. Therefore track spacing would have been implemented at the current standard of the day.
Which would explain the comment about smallest structural clearance in the previous post.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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When was the GW main line 4 tracked? Before or after Broad Gauge?

Any 4 tracking carried out would, I think, have been carried out in the post BG era. Therefore track spacing would have been implemented at the current standard of the day.
Which would explain the comment about smallest structural clearance in the previous post.

From Wkipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Western_Main_Line
The original dual tracks were widened to four track in various places between 1877 and 1899. Paddington to Southall (1 October 1877), Southall to West Drayton (25 November 1878), West Drayton to Slough (1 June 1879), Slough to east side of Maidenhead Bridge (8 September 1884), Maidenhead Bridge to Reading (4 June 1893(, Reading station (1899), Reading to Pangbourne (30 July 1893), Pangbourne to Cholsey and Moulsford (?), Cholsey and Moulsford to Didcot (27 December 1892), Various short sections between Didcot and Swindon, and at Bristol.

Broad gauge was removed in 1892.
The article covers the spread of standard/dual gauge as well.
Operation in the 1880s must have been fun with the various 2-4 track sections and dual gauge to cope with!
 

LexyBoy

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Just from personal experience, whilst the line between Reading and Didcot does curve considerably, this is not really noticeable on-board at 125 mph, certainly not compared to many places on the WCML or MML. The clearance between passing trains seems relatively generous too, there's not the same 'bang' or swaying of coaches as two trains pass that I've noticed on the MML.

This post suggests that 140 mph is OK for rarely-used platforms, so I don't think that should be a huge issue. The stations between Reading and Didcot only have trains calling at the relief platforms (except when the reliefs are closed for engineering), and it would be easy enough to fence off the platforms on the main lines if needed (Pangbourne has none anyway). Linespeed through Didcot could be kept at 125. Stations east of Reading could be more of a problem, and pathing could be an issue here too.

That said, I don't see it likely to happen unless it's picked as a demonstration case. The time savings would be minimal unless limited-stop services are introduced, though it could I suppose be useful to have the higher speed available for making up time (just as Southeastern services on HS1 don't).

Previous attempts at 140 mph running haven't fared too well!
 

swt_passenger

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...and it would be easy enough to fence off the platforms on the main lines if needed (Pangbourne has none anyway). Linespeed through Didcot could be kept at 125. Stations east of Reading could be more of a problem, and pathing could be an issue here too.

That's basically exactly what the current group standard says. For speeds above 125 mph access to platforms must be prevented - and that's about the only extra it asks for.
 

cle

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On a non-stop service from Paddington to Bristol Parkway (soon to come I believe) - how much would the 140mph running in feasible sections give in savings?

That would probably be the biggest gain.

If up until Chippenham, 6tph could benefit - then it might be worth it if 6 trains each hour are saving even 5 minutes, for example. That's 60 minutes each hour, both ways - multiplied by however many passengers, it's a decent saving overall.
 

The Planner

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It is about 3 seconds a mile for 140 over 125, so you need 20 miles to save a minute.
 

Goatboy

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Picture the scene. Sitting next to the Airedale line in Leeds. Beautiful scenery the railway running along the bottom of the valley, there's a tiny noise of an EMU going by at 90mph. Nice and relaxing. Then all of a sudden the Carlisle services comes by with a 158 thrashing all its engines to maintain 90mph. Rudely awakened by this loud intruder.

The visual intrusion is minimal, the noise benefits far outweigh them.

The visual instrusion has a constant presence. The noise does not. And it's not as if an electric train wafts past in near-silence, is it.
 

YorkshireBear

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The visual instrusion has a constant presence. The noise does not. And it's not as if an electric train wafts past in near-silence, is it.

They pretty much do compared to diesel trains. I know this from my time spent next to the Airedale line. Directly next to it.

And it doesn't have a constant presence. When your not looking at it and its dark it doesn't bother you.
 

anthony263

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Goat, whilst I would agree that OHLE on Ribblehead viaduct might take some getting used to I would agree with James that most of the time you don’t notice it at all.

As time goes by you do tend to forget these things. I know some people who live close to the M4 in Port Talbot who over the years have gotten used to the noise of traffic so dont really notice it anymore.
 

jimm

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Various experiences with Didcot. There are still several surviving Super Saloons there, and up until about 1980, they used to make occasional forays onto the network. These would be out of gauge anywhere but former BG lines (being 9ft 7in wide). There are places where modern structures have intruded into the loading gauge, especially the electrified section east of Airport Junction. I haven't had a look at the new Reading yet, but I suspect certain bits of signalling equipment may have tightened up the loading gauge there as well.

However, I'm almost certain, the majority of the plain line sections still have broad gauge spacing. Why move the lines? The additional width isn't really a handicap, and has several advantages in that it should make single line working safer if there is engineering work going on.

The legacy of the broad gauge was that it left behind structures, notably bridges, and tunnels with much greater lateral clearances, so you could run wide-bodied standard gauge stock, but GWR main lines generally had a more generous loading gauge than other railways - including those the GWR built after the end of the broad gauge, such as the GW&GC Joint and the Bicester cut-off. That's why Turbos can use them, with bodywork that would be out of gauge in many other places. The Super Saloons were even wider because they are shorter, so don't have as much overhang in curves. The constraint on other railways using wide-bodied stock was structure-gauge issues, not track spacing.

As I said, at Moreton-in-Marsh station you can indeed see a wider than usual track spacing but just along the line at Kingham and Evesham, the GWR rebuilt the platforms in the1880s and they were positioned to normal standard gauge spacing. That's how far back the process of moving track position goes.

Yes, there are places where wider than usual plain line spacing still applies - I said that - but the majority? I don't think so. Track renewals over many years now have been carried out to usual rail industry standards, including pretty much every inch of the new double track on the Cotswold Line laid in 2011. The extra width on the trackbed there was used to provide a trackside walking route for engineering staff.
 

The Ham

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It is about 3 seconds a mile for 140 over 125, so you need 20 miles to save a minute.

Remembering that is once the train is up to speed, however EMU's will get there faster than IC125's.

The other time savings with new trains over IC125's is that if a door is left open then no one has to run down the platform to shut it, also the doors should be much closer to the height of the platform so easier for passengers to get on and off of.
 

The Planner

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I'd argue that as the dwell times of most new EMU and DMU stock are horrific. You are still likely to need as much as the HST just because of the door cycle and guard duties.

I am aware that the calculation is when they are up to speed, so 20 miles to save a minute, how much extra to accelerate and brake to a stand at a station? I'd bet you would need 3 or 4 miles.
 

LE Greys

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The legacy of the broad gauge was that it left behind structures, notably bridges, and tunnels with much greater lateral clearances, so you could run wide-bodied standard gauge stock, but GWR main lines generally had a more generous loading gauge than other railways - including those the GWR built after the end of the broad gauge, such as the GW&GC Joint and the Bicester cut-off. That's why Turbos can use them, with bodywork that would be out of gauge in many other places. The Super Saloons were even wider because they are shorter, so don't have as much overhang in curves. The constraint on other railways using wide-bodied stock was structure-gauge issues, not track spacing.

As I said, at Moreton-in-Marsh station you can indeed see a wider than usual track spacing but just along the line at Kingham and Evesham, the GWR rebuilt the platforms in the1880s and they were positioned to normal standard gauge spacing. That's how far back the process of moving track position goes.

Yes, there are places where wider than usual plain line spacing still applies - I said that - but the majority? I don't think so. Track renewals over many years now have been carried out to usual rail industry standards, including pretty much every inch of the new double track on the Cotswold Line laid in 2011. The extra width on the trackbed there was used to provide a trackside walking route for engineering staff.

I don't think anyone has ever considered the Cotswold for 155mph running. I hope that it will get 125 one day, but that remains to be seen. This started with me attempting to explain how BR had considered the GWML as one possible route for IC250 in the '80s, with 155 speeds on many of the plain line sections. They thought that the extra width would mean that they would not need to make too many modifications. I can't remember exactly which sections they were planning to upgrade, but it was pretty much the entire route between Southall and Box Tunnel, with the obvious exception of Reading and presumably 125 restrictions through any open platforms (which sounds like the end for the main line platforms at Twyford).
 

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Network Rail's website suggests Newbury and Oxford by 2016, with Cardiff by 2017, although they are already working on bridge modification in West Berkshire. From the PDF link on the page:

...

So they're preparing the line and will get going with wiring it last, working from Airport Junction onwards.

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/improvements/great-western-electrification-delivering-the-plans/

Yes, and I must say I'm disappointed with some of the new bridges between Slough/Reading and Didcot - I'm sure making them visually appealing is much more expensive, but I had hoped we'd seen the last of brutalist concrete structures. Some of them have been clad in brick, which is far better, but a decent number seem to have been left as bare concrete supports with what appears to be an exposed metal overbridge...not nice, especially when compared to the elegant structures they're replacing. :(



On another note, does anyone have any information on the new 'slimline' type of signal that's being installed around Reading? There are quite a few east of the station. They don't seem to have any ladders for accessing the upper sections of the signal, and are far less obtrusive than 'standard' colour light signals.

Is this going to become a network-wide standard design, or is it just something that's being tried out?
 

HSTEd

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Are they these things?

As you can see in the PDF they are rather low maintenance and you just lower the top half of the mast to the ground to do any work that needs doing.

Seems to be a revolutionary change in signalling I think.
 

LE Greys

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Yes, and I must say I'm disappointed with some of the new bridges between Slough/Reading and Didcot - I'm sure making them visually appealing is much more expensive, but I had hoped we'd seen the last of brutalist concrete structures. Some of them have been clad in brick, which is far better, but a decent number seem to have been left as bare concrete supports with what appears to be an exposed metal overbridge...not nice, especially when compared to the elegant structures they're replacing. :(

It's a pity that it has to happen this way. I've seen the few remaining Great Northern overbridges down my way, they're much nicer structures than the '80s ones that replaced them. Still, I suppose that direct replacement (or indeed underpinning the existing bridges and lowering the trackbed) would be seen as 'gold-plating' the project and frowned upon by others.
 

Daimler

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Are they these things?

As you can see in the PDF they are rather low maintenance and you just lower the top half of the mast to the ground to do any work that needs doing.

Seems to be a revolutionary change in signalling I think.

They're actually even more 'slimline' looking than those ones - the new signals at Reading (I've tried to find images on Google, but to no avail) are a kind of moulded shape, with the two aspects housed in a unit which appears to be integral to the signal post itself.

I agree that it's a revolutionary change though - neither of these designs require the fairly massive structure that current signals seem to need, which hopefully brings costs down a lot without impacting anything.

LE Greys said:
It's a pity that it has to happen this way. I've seen the few remaining Great Northern overbridges down my way, they're much nicer structures than the '80s ones that replaced them. Still, I suppose that direct replacement (or indeed underpinning the existing bridges and lowering the trackbed) would be seen as 'gold-plating' the project and frowned upon by others.

Yes, it's a particular pity on the GWML, which has remained relatively unspoilt for so long. The 'cheap and nasty' concrete and metal ones are a real shame, as some effort has clearly been made with those clad in brick - I suppose that these latter bridges are those more visible from areas 'outside' the railway.
 

Gwenllian2001

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They're actually even more 'slimline' looking than those ones - the new signals at Reading (I've tried to find images on Google, but to no avail) are a kind of moulded shape, with the two aspects housed in a unit which appears to be integral to the signal post itself.

That sounds like the new signalling on the Vale of Glamorgan line.
 

The Ham

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I am aware that the calculation is when they are up to speed, so 20 miles to save a minute, how much extra to accelerate and brake to a stand at a station? I'd bet you would need 3 or 4 miles.

I thought that you probably were, it was more a general comment in case others weren't.
 

swt_passenger

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They're actually even more 'slimline' looking than those ones - the new signals at Reading (I've tried to find images on Google, but to no avail) are a kind of moulded shape, with the two aspects housed in a unit which appears to be integral to the signal post itself.

Might be the similar offering from Dorman - the VMS are more angular from what I've seen.

There are a few alongside the new depot that are a straightforward rounded two-head (ie four aspect) signal. The bases look like those in the Dorman brochure here:

http://www.unipartdorman.co.uk/ProductFiles/Integrated Lightweight Signal.pdf

In the station area they are a more conventional LED signal, but of course along there they nearly all have the 'full monty' including feathers, calling on signals, CD/RA indicators etc.
 

Daimler

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Might be the similar offering from Dorman - the VMS are more angular from what I've seen.

There are a few alongside the new depot that are a straightforward rounded two-head (ie four aspect) signal. The bases look like those in the Dorman brochure here:

http://www.unipartdorman.co.uk/ProductFiles/Integrated Lightweight Signal.pdf

In the station area they are a more conventional LED signal, but of course along there they nearly all have the 'full monty' including feathers, calling on signals, CD/RA indicators etc.

That looks right, I think - I didn't get that close a look at the bases, but the various designs for feathers and so on in the pdf seem to match those that I saw outside Reading station - thanks!

I guess we can expect to see a lot more of these sorts of signals appearing over the next few years, and no bad thing - they look like a definite improvement on the current design.
 
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