Great Western (and other TOCs) - nationalisation

[KNN]

There are 7 (I think) Class 221s off lease that could make a big difference to XC, other than not wanting to spend money, what is the issue?

Well, for one, they haven't the staff available to run them. Which was given as the reason for this:

Cross Country Voyagers - rear set locked out of use?

I’ve been on a number of Cross Country services which have been formed of a double Voyager, however, more recently, there has been an increasingly common occurrence of where the rear set has been locked out of use, due to lack of train crew. For Southbound services, it’s usually after...

www.railforums.co.uk

[Link to forum thread about double Voyagers only having one set in use]

If they are expecting to bring those sets into service there will be a plan for it, including training, increasing staffing, timetables, refitting, testing, etc. and it's unlikely it will be easy to shorten the timescale significantly whoever is in charge. (If they don't already have a plan to do so then one will need to be developed, contracts drawn up, suppliers sought etc etc.)

 

[The Planner]

Yes and as that same article said,


I'm sorry but whilst Network Code hasn't suddenly been thrown in the bin, in practise NR offer few if any options beyond the options they wish to pursue.

The TOCs still accept what has been proposed. I would like to think they challenged NR on methodology and programme. Clearly they were happy with the information or they would have been a date set with ADRC.

 

[Russel]

Well, for one, they haven't the staff available to run them. Which was given as the reason for this:

But the not having staff to run double sets is a problem XC have created for themselves by deciding each set needs it's own TM, rather than allowing the RSM to take responsibility of the second set, as happened until quite recently.

Again, something that could easily be resolved.

 

[physics34]

The operators will go into public hands but keep their TOC name (as in LNER, Northern etc). So the TOCs will no longer be private companies, but will keep their names. I think it is silly though to not have GBR as the main brand from Day One.

Source please as they had previously announced there would be one brand.

 

[KNN]

But the not having staff to run double sets is a problem XC have created for themselves by deciding each set needs it's own TM, rather than allowing the RSM to take responsibility of the second set, as happened until quite recently.

Again, something that could easily be resolved.

We have a different definition of "easily", I think.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Source please as they had previously announced there would be one brand.

SWR and c2c are still trading under those brand names following their move to DFTO, and there's no reason to believe that will change before the legislation required to create GBR is passed.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Source please as they had previously announced there would be one brand.

The TOCs will still exist as separate entities until the Bill is passed and GBR comes into being. Then the TOCs will be subsumed into GBR (as will NR) and the new structure (whatever that will be) is then put into place.

 

[KNN]

The operators will go into public hands but keep their TOC name (as in LNER, Northern etc). So the TOCs will no longer be private companies, but will keep their names. I think it is silly though to not have GBR as the main brand from Day One.

They still need to explain how the TOCs who share routes are going to relate to each other. Going to Scotland from the North West via TPE or Avanti is a different price and service, if that's all branded GBR people will be even more confused than they are now.

 

[vuzzeho]

SWR and c2c are still trading under those brand names following their move to DFTO, and there's no reason to believe that will change before the legislation required to create GBR is passed.

Apparently, c2c is to be absorbed into a new operator later this year, alongside Greater Anglia, called 'Anglia Railways'. Unsure whether it'll be a change in branding or more of a paper exercise for now, but technically there will be a change. (and here is my source). Additionally, Avanti has to change, as it's very much a brand name.

 

[physics34]

Apparently, c2c is to be absorbed into a new operator later this year, alongside Greater Anglia, called 'Anglia Railways'. Unsure whether it'll be a change in branding or more of a paper exercise for now, but technically there will be a change. (and here is my source). Additionally, Avanti has to change, as it's very much a brand name.

I assume this might happen to a few TOCs because im not sure southern will be a separate entity. It very wont stay together with TL and GN

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Sep 2025 ==

SWR and c2c are still trading under those brand names following their move to DFTO, and there's no reason to believe that will change before the legislation required to create GBR is passed.

The way the poster wrote his post it sounded like they were going to keep the names after GBR is created

 

[Roy Badami]

Apparently, c2c is to be absorbed into a new operator later this year, alongside Greater Anglia, called 'Anglia Railways'. Unsure whether it'll be a change in branding or more of a paper exercise for now, but technically there will be a change. (and here is my source). Additionally, Avanti has to change, as it's very much a brand name.

There was a similar exercise at Southeastern, and the South Eastern Railway name is showing no signs of becoming customer-facing, so I don't really expect the Anglia Railway name to be any different in that respect. They're clearly assembling the building blocks of GBR, but there would be little point in changing branding twice unless they absolutely have to.

South Eastern Railway was formally stood up on 18 June 2025 and brings the publicly owned train operator, Southeastern and infrastructure provider, Network Rail Kent Route, under a single leadership team. This integrated approach to managing the railway across the south east aims to drive investment and efficiency and deliver for passengers and freight and is an important step towards the eventual creation of Great British Railways (GBR).

Company Information | Southeastern Railway

Facts, figures and future plans from Southeastern, the rail network linking London with Kent and parts of East Sussex.

www.southeasternrailway.co.uk

 

[brad465]

Cross country ultimately need more rolling stock and that's not going to materialise so yeah I imagine it's in their interest to delay the transfer as long as possible. Even bent dft and maybe having some more flexibility with rolling stock doesn't help, because there's not really any suitable cascades even.

Wonder if it will help or hinder GWRs plans for their battery tech. That's something they'll need sooner rather than later to get 150s replaced too. Again there's not much diesel stock that isn't also life expired.

Its possible it might be that way.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Sep 2025 ==


CrossCountry are the "Worst" operator in the franchise becuase of short formation, train full and standing and not many seats.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Sep 2025 ==


Well battery is still something GWR are still looking to do with the combined order that Chiltern Railways, Great Western Railway and South Western Railway for them to replace DMUs Class 150s, 158s, 159s, 165s and 166s.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the new combined fleet order for GWR, Chiltern and SWR being discussed is announced in conjunction with the former 2's nationalisation once it starts, as a PR boost trick. Then the Transport Secretary can point to investment being made and claim nationalising made this possible.

 

[ScottGallagher]

Apparently, c2c is to be absorbed into a new operator later this year, alongside Greater Anglia, called 'Anglia Railways'. Unsure whether it'll be a change in branding or more of a paper exercise for now, but technically there will be a change. (and here is my source). Additionally, Avanti has to change, as it's very much a brand name.

We've had an Anglia Railways before, and it would be odd to have the c2c area referred to as Anglia when its nowhere near.
The whole thing (Greater Anglia)should have been called Great Eastern from the start in 2004, but that's for another time.

 

[ollyexe2808]

Source please as they had previously announced there would be one brand.

I didn't mean after GBR had been set up, I meant immediately, i.e. as each TOC is nationalised over the coming months. I think I was responding to a poster who was thinking the TOCs were still going to be under private control, which they aren't. The plan (AFAIK) is still to have a single GBR brand but the transition status will mean each TOC brand will remain until such time legislation is passed and a branding is decided on.

 

[physics34]

I didn't mean after GBR had been set up, I meant immediately, i.e. as each TOC is nationalised over the coming months. I think I was responding to a poster who was thinking the TOCs were still going to be under private control, which they aren't. The plan (AFAIK) is still to have a single GBR brand but the transition status will mean each TOC brand will remain until such time legislation is passed and a branding is decided on.

Cool.

 

[The exile]

Might be a bit of a stretch but nobody is too keen on returning to the days of British Rail which, while doing good with what little it was given, wasn't exactly a bastion of efficiency

Compared to many of its contemporaries it was!

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I can’t work out what GBR is and what it isn’t

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I can’t work out what GBR is and what it isn’t

It isn’t anything yet, as it requires parliamentary legislation to create it. And presumably that means politicians and civil servants will have to decide what it is going to be first.

 

[zwk500]

Is there any more recent white paper than the Williams (& Shapps) Review?

 

[Class 170101]

Well, for one, they haven't the staff available to run them. Which was given as the reason for this:

Sorry but that shouldn't be necessary.

Class 377 / 379 / 387 run with just a driver in 12 carriage formations
(321/322/360/365 before them as well)

Why not a pair of Voyagers with Driver and Guard?

 

[JamesT]

Is there any more recent white paper than the Williams (& Shapps) Review?

I think https://assets.publishing.service.g...6c2fd49/a-railway-fit-for-britains-future.pdf is the most recent output from the government regarding railways. (A consultation on what would go in the coming Railways Act).

It isn’t anything yet, as it requires parliamentary legislation to create it. And presumably that means politicians and civil servants will have to decide what it is going to be first.

You would have hoped that the politicians might have had a reasonable idea what the desired end state was before they started down this road. Even if the legislation will take a while to go through the process, the vision should be there.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There's this consultation document from Feb 2025 on Labour's intentions for GBR.
This outlines the powers and responsibilities that GBR will probably have, but most of the technical details are still undefined.
The consultation is now closed and we await the detailed response.
It will probably appear on the day that the GBR legislation is unveiled as it starts its parliamentary process.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/67b30eb94a80c6718b55bdf6/a-railway-fit-for-britains-future-print.pdf

That is why we are bringing forward a new Railways Bill: a once-in-a-generation overhaul of the fundamental rules, structures, and bodies that make up our rail industry. The Bill will enable us to establish GBR and give it the authority and autonomy it needs to run the network in the public interest. It will enable GBR to be empowered and drive better performance, increased revenue and cost reduction in the interests of passengers, freight customers and taxpayers. It will create a new watchdog to act as an independent voice and champion for passengers. It will also realise the economic and environmental benefits of rail freight through a new statutory duty, recognising the sector’s growth potential. This consultation seeks your views on these proposed measures and many others. With your input, this government is putting the railway back on the right track – towards a system that truly serves its passengers, that acts as an engine for growth and opportunity, and that stands once again as a point of pride for modern Britain.

 

[Tester]

.....but nobody is too keen on returning to the days of British Rail which, while doing good with what little it was given, wasn't exactly a bastion of efficiency or a world class railway.

British Rail was not 'Deeply inefficient' as John Major famously declared it.

However it didn't make a lot of money for lawyers, bankers and accountants!

As for world class, you might be surprised to hear that BR was highly regarded in many countries - witness the success of Transmark (BR's international consultancy arm). [Disclaimer - I worked for them for a few years]

 

[father_jack]

Sorry but that shouldn't be necessary.

Class 377 / 379 / 387 run with just a driver in 12 carriage formations
(321/322/360/365 before them as well)

Why not a pair of Voyagers with Driver and Guard?

Only in your opinion.

Agreements exist between the company and the trade union. The company can't just change what pleases them. (And you.)

It's been much discussed before but you mustn't have (chosen to ?) read those posts.

 

[Andrew1395]

We've had an Anglia Railways before, and it would be odd to have the c2c area referred to as Anglia when its nowhere near.
The whole thing (Greater Anglia)should have been called Great Eastern from the start in 2004, but that's for another time.

Services out of Fenchurch Street came under the British Rail Anglia Region. So Anglia Railways seems appropriate.

 

[officewalla]

This is not going to end well. If and until the pay and T&Cs are harmonised, it is pointless and is nothing more than smoke and ideological mirrors. Compare LNER staff travel arrangements with SWT for example and then it is plain to see that the haves (old DfT control LNER) are so much better off than the have nots (very new DfT control SWT) and this is OK is it ASLEF? No didn't think so but what is being done about it?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

In the short term the only benefit from internalisation is the elimination of the management and performance bonus payments, if earnt, which assist DfT meet their reduced budget allocated for day to day expenditure. In the medium term adopting a SE approach helps improve relationships and operational performance but that should only be building off what already existed so its not going to be transformational. Even when we get to GBR i doubt that will materially change anything for several years because the industry is in a bit of stasis currently to drive through change. I'd say unofficially GBR will be told to get costs down as its main priority initially anyhow so implementing organisational integration will be first priority. From that should flow some level of improvement in performance but your not going to fix staff shortages overnight and I wonder whether we will actually see thinning of timetables when they aren't being contractual requirements anymore to deal with those issues.

 

[Sorcerer]

Compared to many of its contemporaries it was!

British Rail was not 'Deeply inefficient' as John Major famously declared it.

However it didn't make a lot of money for lawyers, bankers and accountants!

As for world class, you might be surprised to hear that BR was highly regarded in many countries - witness the success of Transmark (BR's international consultancy arm). [Disclaimer - I worked for them for a few years]

British Rail made the best of the situation it was in and managed to deliver some good projects such as electrification of the East and West Coast Main Lines along with almost bringing us the Advanced Passenger Train. But people are more likely to remember the shortcomings, especially northern commuters who won't look back on a literal bus body being thrown on a freight wagon that took almost forty years to replace and think "ah yes, the good old days".

My original point is that Great British Railways can set a good first impression so that any naysayers won't think it's a simple return to the days of British Rail. I feel like most people will either fall into the category of either looking back on it poorly without appreciation of how relatively good it actually was, or they will think of it as the golden days but more because of ideological bias (ie. socialists who do not believe in private companies) than actual fond memories.

 

[GordonT]

British Rail was not 'Deeply inefficient' as John Major famously declared it.

And surely many of the leading lights running the newly privatised TOCs on a day to day basis were retained in similar positions that they occupied within BR? And the TOCs where ex-BR managers had less influence tended to be the ones more prone to cock-ups? I write merely as an armchair observer and reader of 'Modern Railways' - others who were actually in the fray may be able to confirm or deny.

 

[aron2smith]

They could also pull the XC franchise if it is below requirements rather than wait 2 years to 17th October 2027

Just out of interest looked up latest XC performance

Less than half trains on time at 48.9%
Using within 3 minutes, then over 3 in 10 don't meet that either (it is 69.8%)
If you use the very lacklustre within 15 minutes, then that is 94.1% so around 1 in 19 trains
Trains within 30-59 minutes (nowhere near on time) is hefty 1.6%

Cancellations are 6.9% (averaging nearer 8% on 2025 figures)
Cancellations by XC (rather than all canx) 4.2%

Short formed 3.7% (apparently excludes where one set locked out) as based on vehicles that ran, not how many passengers can actually use.

Accessible customer service during disruption quality only 51.25% of target

https://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/about-us/key-business-performance-indicators.

So unless cross country make serious improvements then not going to be immune from DfT saying not good enough, hand back early.

Out of interest I checked Avanti, they appear to be even worse than Crosscountry somehow!

Just 39% of trains on time! (34% for the Manchester route is shocking)
59% within 3 minutes of schedule
89.4% within 15 minutes of schedule
So more than 1 in 10 trains is over 15 minutes late
Nearly 4% of all their trains between half hour and an hour late (over 5% for the Manchester route!)

Only thing that is better is short formation is very rare on Avanti.
But otherwise a very poor performing TOC even now. The trains run but are wildly unreliable.

Part of me wonders how much of this is down to poor management and how much of it is down to inadequate infrastructure who's upgrade has been a political and treasury football for the past 15 years!!!

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