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Great Northern Fleet - 379s introduction

windjabbers

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I would hazard a guess it's a stock swap, 023 and 029 are still there but there is a 5Q91 booked out at 1408 back to Hornsey
currently running an hour late. Would be good to know if this is a stock swap or just Driver training and which units are involved.


 
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RailwayRookie

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currently running an hour late. Would be good to know if this is a stock swap or just Driver training and which units are involved.


Both were single manned (or personed) as is the appropriate terminology now. So although not definitive proof i would imagine a Stock swap
 

xxjcz

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The curtains have gone I believe but everything else is as it was and I don't believe there's any plan to change this.

When they get the 377/387 upgrades perhaps it might happen then, but I see it as unlikely because first class is still a thing on Great Northern and the 387 provision was/is terrible so at least now there's something worth the money.

Indeed it's the best first class on any GTR rolling stock
When the ex-GWR units had their exams at Selhurst recently they had the dark green grab handles changed to the lighter green that the other /1’s have but didn’t replace the moquette. I’d hazard a guess they might do something similar when exam time comes around but I’d imagine they’d have to get spare moquette at some point for these units.

I don’t think anything will be done to them when they go for their aurora apart from the obvious features that are done to every unit. Would be interesting to see where they do the aurora refurb as they can’t come south by themselves.
 

TSGN Spotter

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379025/028 were the 2 units on yesterdays 5T90

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5T81/5T82 in the schedule, 379s for driver training goes from Kings Lynn CS to Kings Lynn shunt sdgs and back to the CS.
 

physics34

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Shocking really.. absolutely no reason for these units to be sitting idle for so long .
 

whoosh

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Would be good to know if this is a stock swap or just Driver training...

Driver training is part classroom and part on the unit as static training. There isn't any brake handling (driving) on the conversion course from 387s.
 

Failed Unit

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I very much hope that if the full 30 don’t go into traffic the cascade plans will be scaled back.
I would be amazed if any of these units need to be written off - but we will see. No-one on here will know where the line is drawn for fixing them. Say if you need to spend more than £100k don't bother. Definitely a case of "it didn't need to be that way" - Hopefully the 350's won't fall down the same hole.
 

warwickshire

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I would be amazed if any of these units need to be written off - but we will see. No-one on here will know where the line is drawn for fixing them. Say if you need to spend more than £100k don't bother. Definitely a case of "it didn't need to be that way" - Hopefully the 350's won't fall down the same hole.
Same here, But is it just possibly the case that some of the 379s which was parked up at Harwich Parkeston Quay sidings for over 6 months and not moved and getting the sea salt inside them, might actually be the ones affected and might never work a train again, ie to costly, or odd one beyond uneconomical repair???

Maybe this might be the case or might not Be???

Interesting to find out further if anyone is in the know

Thank you
Warwickshire
 

RealTrains07

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I would be amazed if any of these units need to be written off - but we will see. No-one on here will know where the line is drawn for fixing them. Say if you need to spend more than £100k don't bother. Definitely a case of "it didn't need to be that way" - Hopefully the 350's won't fall down the same hole.
The 379s are case and point more why this country needs a rolling stock strategy to prevent scenarios like this from occurring
 

OneOfThe48

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In the GTR business plan it has the following to say about 379's.

View attachment 175478
Indicates that not all 30 may end up back in traffic although I can't believe this isn't upto the Lessor to sort out.
This is from last year is it not? Looks out of date to me. And GTR’s recent press release said they were taking the 30

 

Lknowles78

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In my opinion, this is the problem with the privatised railway where every new contract wanted shiny new trains to show off instead of using decent existing trains. We have seen brand new trains go off lease and sitting around in the name of private company image!
 

JonathanH

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Doomotron

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We have seen brand new trains go off lease and sitting around in the name of private company image!
When it comes to economies of scale, there is no good reason to keep 30 trains from a class that's unique to the operator's fleet when you can have an equivalent amount of brand new trains that you've already paid to train your workforce on and get spare parts for. They make sense with GTR's large fleet of similar units, but not with a large homogenised fleet such as Greater Anglia's. I'm not sure where these off-lease brand new trains are - unless you're counting the EWR 196s - because the 379s are more than a decade old by this point. The 350/2s, 360s and 458s are even older. They are not 'brand new'.
 

Royston Vasey

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That reads like a bargaining position. I infer that GTR have objected strongly to the condition of some of the units, hence DfT have now challenged them to explain how and why they cannot accept some units ("beyond repair" is obviously a direct quote of something GTR have stated privately but it seems like hyperbole, i.e. the start of a negotiation). My guess is that a solution will be achieved whereby the DfT, the ROSCO or both pay for the repairs needed and not GTR.

And I do sympathise with GTR on that, they've been foisted with units in poor condition and had several of the excellent 387s moved to their other routes before their replacements are even ready. They're only on a management contract, why should it be on them to sort the mess they've been given.

The second snippet about the "Revised Class 379 Plan" also implies that GTR have essentially asked for (a lot) more money to sort them out, and this document is basically asking "ok fine, how much?"
 
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bramling

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That reads like a bargaining position. I infer that GTR have objected strongly to the condition of some of the units, hence DfT have now challenged them to explain how and why they cannot accept some units ("beyond repair" is obviously a direct quote of something GTR have stated privately but it seems like hyperbole, i.e. the start of a negotiation). My guess is that a solution will be achieved whereby the DfT, the ROSCO or both pay for the repairs needed and not GTR.

And I do sympathise with GTR on that, they've been foisted with units in poor condition and had several of the excellent 387s moved to their other routes before their replacements are even ready. They're only on a management contract, why should it be on them to sort the mess they've been given.

The second snippet about the "Revised Class 379 Plan" also implies that GTR have essentially asked for (a lot) more money to sort them out, and this document is basically asking "ok fine, how much?"

GTR have gained from the whole DFT position though.

If you look on the GN side, getting rid of the 365s saved on crew training, possibly some station staffing, and no doubt efficiencies on maintenance. GTR have also had the benefit of only having to plan two types of rolling stock for the GN outers, not three, which makes planning and managing the service easier.

They’ve of course also benefited south of the river from being allowed to get rid of the 313s and 455s.

So in that sense having to commission 30 damp and mouldy EMUs that are essentially pretty similar to their existing trains isn’t the end of the world, and of course if they need extra money to do it then all they have to do is go to the DFT.

It’s the passengers that suffer from all of this. Firstly in the form of losing the 365s, and in particular the services they ran, some of which still haven’t returned and probably won’t ever. Then now having to bear all the risks from taking on a fleet which has been stored for several years, and in what it is increasingly apparent was less than perfect storage conditions.

At the end of all this, the GN user is left with a small increase in trains, fewer ironing board seats, and a shed load of risk - with a load of difficulties along the way.
 

Royston Vasey

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GTR have gained from the whole DFT position though.

If you look on the GN side, getting rid of the 365s saved on crew training, possibly some station staffing, and no doubt efficiencies on maintenance. GTR have also had the benefit of only having to plan two types of rolling stock for the GN outers, not three, which makes planning and managing the service easier.

They’ve of course also benefited south of the river from being allowed to get rid of the 313s and 455s.

So in that sense having to commission 30 damp and mouldy EMUs that are essentially pretty similar to their existing trains isn’t the end of the world, and of course if they need extra money to do it then all they have to do is go to the DFT.

It’s the passengers that suffer from all of this. Firstly in the form of losing the 365s, and in particular the services they ran, some of which still haven’t returned and probably won’t ever. Then now having to bear all the risks from taking on a fleet which has been stored for several years, and in what it is increasingly apparent was less than perfect storage conditions.

At the end of all this, the GN user is left with a small increase in trains, fewer ironing board seats, and a shed load of risk - with a load of difficulties along the way.
All very true, of course the wider GTR gained from this in the long run and I wish they'd just get on with it, secure the money, fix them up and roll them out. What's egregious to me is the indecent haste with which our 387s have been transferred without viable replacements other than stretching the inferior 700/0 fleet. I expect to see a lot more of them on the 1Txx and 2Cxx circuits on a semi-permanent basis now.

Everywhere else, inevitable delivery and commissioning delays of new stock simply delays the transfer of the old stock (e.g. Anglia sprinters, West Mids 323s, East Mids 222s, Avanti 221s). We have already lost several 387s and all we have to show for it is two 379s that sort-of work, on and off, running mainly fresh air to London on a peak extra service that isn't particularly needed.

It's a raw deal for what was previously a consistent and reliable operation with highly suitable stock (ironing boards aside, admittedly) - one day we'll sit back in our comfy 379s and laugh about all this...
 

Class455

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This is from last year is it not? Looks out of date to me. And GTR’s recent press release said they were taking the 30

It is, this was written before the units were publicly confirmed to be going to GTR I believe. Great Northern should still be receiving all 30 Class 379's
 

bramling

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All very true, of course the wider GTR gained from this in the long run and I wish they'd just get on with it, secure the money, fix them up and roll them out. What's egregious to me is the indecent haste with which our 387s have been transferred without viable replacements other than stretching the inferior 700/0 fleet. I expect to see a lot more of them on the 1Txx and 2Cxx circuits on a semi-permanent basis now.

Everywhere else, inevitable delivery and commissioning delays of new stock simply delays the transfer of the old stock (e.g. Anglia sprinters, West Mids 323s, East Mids 222s, Avanti 221s). We have already lost several 387s and all we have to show for it is two 379s that sort-of work, on and off, running mainly fresh air to London on a peak extra service that isn't particularly needed.

It's a raw deal for what was previously a consistent and reliable operation with highly suitable stock (ironing boards aside, admittedly) - one day we'll sit back in our comfy 379s and laugh about all this...

I don’t really begrudge the 387s going south, passengers south of the river have been screwed over by way of losing the significant class 455 fleet with no replacement. 46 4-car units is a massive amount to lose like that.

What grates more is the way some of this is facilitating transfer of units to Southeastern, allowing Networkers to be binned off largely because the TOC can no longer be bothered to maintain them.
 

RailwayRookie

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The 379 Stock has workings booked next week to run from Kings Lynn to Downham Market and back as 5T79 and 5T80 respectively for a few days.
 

St. Paddy

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The 379 Stock has workings booked next week to run from Kings Lynn to Downham Market and back as 5T79 and 5T80 respectively for a few days.
Probably Drivers requesting some handling on them as there’s none included in the training course. Interestingly, they are allocated to Kings Lynn work on passenger trains in the May timetable always assuming they can get anymore fit for service and cleared for service
 

43074

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It is, this was written before the units were publicly confirmed to be going to GTR I believe. Great Northern should still be receiving all 30 Class 379's
At the point that document was written the mechanical state of the units were being examined before they could be accepted by GTR, all the DfT were asking for was an explanation of why any "rejected" units couldn't be accepted.

There was a risk was that not all of the units would be in an acceptable mechanical condition after the years they spent in cold storage at Worksop. All 30 will return to service, albeit some may not enter service until after they've had an overhaul later this year.

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It’s the passengers that suffer from all of this. Firstly in the form of losing the 365s, and in particular the services they ran, some of which still haven’t returned and probably won’t ever. Then now having to bear all the risks from taking on a fleet which has been stored for several years, and in what it is increasingly apparent was less than perfect storage conditions.
379s are a far better unit than the 365s for the Kings Lynn/Ely to London route. I can understand being put out by 700s replacing 365s on some of the stoppers, but to say everyone loses out is patently not true.

Reliability will bed down eventually, there's no reason why they won't be as reliable as the 387s in time. They are a known quantity at Hornsey as although there are some differences with 387s, they are just another Electrostar at the end of the day!
 
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St. Paddy

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Has the out of gauge issue at Alexandra Palace been sorted now?
No change to operating restrictions since 6th February so not yet

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379026 is coupled to 022 in Letchworth sidings this weekend. Assume they worked down Friday evening
 
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ZJ517

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Both units have indeed operated 1Q09 (0745 Letchworth to King's Cross) this morning.
 

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