Great Northern Fleet - 379s introduction

[D365]

That’s exactly what I thought too. The 379’s can be complimented by the 387/3’s, and quite possibly the loans of 387172/173/174 becoming permanent if GWR no longer need them. Project Aurora making them all compatible would make things a lot easier.

The Class 379s are not currently included in Project Aurora. Unless the intention is to get them in scope…

 

[Class455]

The Class 379s are not currently included in Project Aurora. Unless the intention is to get them in scope…

If they came to GTR, I’d think they would be included though the only difficulty is that they are not owned by Porterbrook and this is a Porterbrook funded project.

 

[GEC465]

When are we likely to hear the result of the tender?

 

[Stephen42]

When are we likely to hear the result of the tender?

A while. The deadline for expressions of interest is next week. After that interested parties need to be issued the full procurement documents if they haven't already, to respond with their proposal, subsequent negotiations to get the final options and for one to obtain approval from the DfT. At a guess roughly two to six months depending how many conversations have already happened and the level of competition.

 

[jon0844]

The Class 379s are not currently included in Project Aurora. Unless the intention is to get them in scope…

I am sure there's now a battle of the wills going on, as the 379s go north into storage - and the ROSCO is clearly going to have to consider how to get some income from them, while the TOCs that could use them aren't going to pay the asking price.

Wouldn't surprise me if one of the bids won't be to overhaul the 379s (likely strip out the interior and downgrade them to match the 387s) and upgrade the software and hardware to make them properly compatible.

Or they just rot away, which seems a tremendous waste. The 365s were great trains but were flawed by not having air conditioning, no bodyside cameras etc. The 379s have both, and could get the new signalling added I'm sure.

 

[JonathanH]

Wouldn't surprise me if one of the bids won't be to overhaul the 379s (likely strip out the interior and downgrade them to match the 387s) and upgrade the software and hardware to make them properly compatible.

I doubt it is necessary to take out all of the interior, but removing the somewhat inappropriate first class area might make sense.

 

[GEC465]

I doubt it is necessary to take out all of the interior, but removing the somewhat inappropriate first class area might make sense.

The first class is appropriate. More inappropriate on the 387s. Judging that it's (probably) just gonna be a software/hardware compatibility change that's needed if it does happen

 

[JonathanH]

The first class is appropriate.

In an era where first class is being moved from London area commuter services, the current first class seats in the 379s would appear to take up too much space for the number of passengers carried. (I appreciate that people may feel the design of seats are worthy of actually being first class.)

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

In an era where first class is being moved from London area commuter services, the current first class seats in the 379s would appear to take up too much space for the number of passengers carried. (I appreciate that people may feel the design of seats are worthy of actually being first class.)

Would be an awkward situation for first class passengers if they used both 379s and 387s on the same route with seats remaining as is. A lottery as to whether one got the pin thin Fainsa 2+2s on the 387 or the somewhat more spacious 379 feature.

 

[Royston Vasey]

387s back on the Cambridge locals this morning, interworking with what are now all Kings Lynn "Cruisers". Just a data point. See how that settles down/how many units are really needed

 

[Wivenswold]

If the 379s were to go to GN they and the 387s would likely have separate diagrams. So unless one subs the other, regular travellers will know where 1st class is on their train. We had the same issue with 1st class on the GA with 317,321 and 360s all having different layouts, didn't seem to cause any issues.

 

[Sutton in Ant]

If it was the case that the 379s were to go to GN. Then I would believe that the 387/1s would go to Southern to do the London to Brighton, Littlehampton, Eastbourne, and other coast way services and the 377s would do the metro and other services. Other news according to the YouTube video. Southern rail is getting the 377/5s when they leave Southeastern Railway this year or next.

 

[JonathanH]

Other news according to the YouTube video. Southern rail is getting the 377/5s when they leave Southeastern Railway this year or next.

Is that official or just someone putting a video together of things that might happen?

East Croydon (and the train I caught) was very quiet at 7.30 this morning.

 

[XCTurbostar]

Nothing confirmed. I wouldn’t trust any source until the TOC confirms it. It all depends on the 465 fleet and whether there is a need to bin the 465/9s and 466s since this will drive the requirement for 377 retention.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Is that official or just someone putting a video together of things that might happen?

East Croydon (and the train I caught) was very quiet at 7.30 this morning.

I mean I've been up and down the Brighton Main Line the last two days and it was incredibly busy. Observations don't really mean anything as different people will class different trains as busy. For some people unless the train is crush loaded its not busy.

 

[Sutton in Ant]

Is that official or just someone putting a video together of things that might happen?

East Croydon (and the train I caught) was very quiet at 7.30 this morning.

I would have thought it was someone who is very reliable. Never say never in this world. Very quiet?? Does that mean that you are campaigning for less rolling stock on Southern Railway?

 

[D365]

If it was the case that the 379s were to go to GN. Then I would believe that the 387/1s would go to Southern to do the London to Brighton, Littlehampton, Eastbourne, and other coast way services and the 377s would do the metro and other services.

Ignoring the fact that this is very much speculative, how would the shortfall in the number of Class 379 units (when comparing to Class 387/1) be made up?

 

[Stephen42]

Ignoring the fact that this is very much speculative, how would the shortfall in the number of Class 379 units (when comparing to Class 387/1) be made up?

The subclasses for class 387 can already all work together, so any number of class 387/1s or the others with Great Northern could be sent down south rather than all. These could be diagrammed along with the existing 387s and the Southern drivers already trained. It seems a reasonable plan to avoid trying to get two small fleets for Great Northern and Southern to do one larger procurement for one brand using the 387s to balance out across the other based on passenger demand. Can't think of too many 3rd rail fleets available so doing the tender for Great Northern makes sense.

 

[XAM2175]

I would have thought it was someone who is very reliable.

... dare I ask why?

 

[Doomotron]

If the 379s were to go to GN they and the 387s would likely have separate diagrams. So unless one subs the other, regular travellers will know where 1st class is on their train. We had the same issue with 1st class on the GA with 317,321 and 360s all having different layouts, didn't seem to cause any issues.

Why would they need different diagrams? Their top speed on the ECML would be the same, and there are plenty of cases of trains with different interiors and first class variations being used on the same diagrams, like 375s and 465s.

 

[CBlue]

I would have thought it was someone who is very reliable. Never say never in this world. Very quiet?? Does that mean that you are campaigning for less rolling stock on Southern Railway?

A YouTube video by a random channel is not what most would call a reliable source of information, regardless of how much you'd like what it says to happen.

And you may be shocked to find that quiet train services exist but I don't see how that equates to the poster "campaigning for less rolling stock" - DFT want to reduce costs and are doing so by withdrawing trains and cutting back services. That's it.

 

[43074]

Ignoring the fact that this is very much speculative, how would the shortfall in the number of Class 379 units (when comparing to Class 387/1) be made up?

There are 30 379 and 29 387/1 (plus three from GWR which are supporting the fleet whilst overhauls and ETCS fitment is happening); it would be a like for like swap pretty much.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 May 2023 ==

Why would they need different diagrams? Their top speed on the ECML would be the same, and there are plenty of cases of trains with different interiors and first class variations being used on the same diagrams, like 375s and 465s.

387s and 379s can't work together, but there is fair bit of attaching and detaching so they would need to be kept on separate diagrams to avoid having incompatible units being planned to attach to each other.

 

[bramling]

There are 30 379 and 29 387/1 (plus three from GWR which are supporting the fleet whilst overhauls and ETCS fitment is happening); it would be a like for like swap pretty much.

This isn’t quite the case since Covid, the GN 387 fleet is now at least 35x units. Indeed the 387 requirement has increased slightly by taking over some 700/0 work.

It would have been ideal to swap 387 for 379 with the original 2018 timetable whilst the 365s were still around. Now anything involving the 379s would be messy, unless they can be modified to work with 387s.

 

[43096]

This isn’t quite the case since Covid, the GN 387 fleet is now at least 35x units. Indeed the 387 requirement has increased slightly by taking over some 700/0 work.

It would have been ideal to swap 387 for 379 with the original 2018 timetable whilst the 365s were still around. Now anything involving the 379s would be messy, unless they can be modified to work with 387s.

Or replace the whole lot with 37 x 350/2. That way Hornsey becomes a 100% Siemens allocation (350/700/717). I get, though, that would require crew training.

 

[Skimble19]

This isn’t quite the case since Covid, the GN 387 fleet is now at least 35x units. Indeed the 387 requirement has increased slightly by taking over some 700/0 work.

It would have been ideal to swap 387 for 379 with the original 2018 timetable whilst the 365s were still around. Now anything involving the 379s would be messy, unless they can be modified to work with 387s.

Indeed. GN currently has 29 GN /1s, 6 ex-c2c /3s, 1 GX /2 and (for now) 3 ex-GWR /1s - 39 in total. Still a fair way short of the pre covid 387/365 combined fleet of 50 units.

 

[fgwrich]

Or replace the whole lot with 37 x 350/2. That way Hornsey becomes a 100% Siemens allocation (350/700/717). I get, though, that would require crew training.

Then move the Bombardier stuff south / South East of the river to make compatible fleets down there?

Sorry, sensible ideas don’t work on the railway…

 

[Minstral25]

Other than colour of units and seats are there any real differences between the sub-classes of 387, or are they in reality single type of unit?

 

[43102EMR]

Other than colour of units and seats are there any real differences between the sub-classes of 387, or are they in reality single type of unit?

The only real difference is the 387/1as used by Heathrow Express - completely different seating layout and (for now) the only subclass fitted with ETCS.

 

[Fincra5]

Or replace the whole lot with 37 x 350/2. That way Hornsey becomes a 100% Siemens allocation (350/700/717). I get, though, that would require crew training.

Not just Crew Training... DOO Cameras would need fitting, fitters would need new training (sure it a Siemens products but its not the same as 717 or 700 inside or out!), ASLEF Agreements, Route Clearances (although same a 700-ish). Lot of work.

 

[43096]

Not just Crew Training... DOO Cameras would need fitting, fitters would need new training (sure it a Siemens products but its not the same as 717 or 700 inside or out!), ASLEF Agreements, Route Clearances (although same a 700-ish). Lot of work.

Anyone would think that there’s never been a new train introduction, ever, because it’s all so difficult.