Great Northern Fleet - 379s introduction

[Pdf]

Surely if the lease ends on 717s in September, then the lease Co is free to name their price for any subsequent period. There might be a commercial clause that limits price rises, by presumably if operator doesn't like the new price, it's their problem to find alternative trains. But you do have a point they could make it take all 25 as condition of leasing them.

Given it is the ticket buyer and the taxpayer who ultimately ends up paying these leasing costs I really hope this is not the case because the ROSCO really has GTR over a barrel here.

 

[43096]

Given it is the ticket buyer and the taxpayer who ultimately ends up paying these leasing costs I really hope this is not the case because the ROSCO really has GTR over a barrel here.

Remember that the owner of the 717s - Rock Rail - also has other fleets, so if they start playing silly with the 717s then they could expect to lose out elsewhere in due course. In particular the yet-to-be-introduced 701s are theirs: play games with the 717s and they may find the 701 contract is terminated.

 

[Meerkat]

Given it is the ticket buyer and the taxpayer who ultimately ends up paying these leasing costs I really hope this is not the case because the ROSCO really has GTR over a barrel here.

Yes and no. They could screw the TOC (and thereby DfT) over on GTR, but then might find they have no takers from other TOCs (also DfT)
It will be a game of chicken rather than a negotiation!

 

[whoosh]

Given it is the ticket buyer and the taxpayer who ultimately ends up paying these leasing costs I really hope this is not the case because the ROSCO really has GTR over a barrel here.

I'd just like to make the point that when politicians state that the "privatised TOCs... only make a 3% profit," that they always stop at that statement and never mention/leave out the profits of ROSCOs, so the whole picture is never discussed.

 

[MikeWM]

Do they actually know? AFAIK this hasn’t been publicised by GTR.

That's a fair point - I only know about it because of the discussions on here, and even then until this thread I assumed it would just be the Ely terminators, as it was (I think) in 2021.

700s have been moderately common to Ely at various times, but much rarer to Kings Lynn. Most peak-hour commuters will manage to swerve them as anything which runs as a 12 south of Cambridge will be 387s.

Is that likely to be complicated by the services that are only 12-cars on Tuesday through Thursday? Seems from RTT that they are set to continue in the new timetable.

I can't say I'm remotely looking forward to seeing the possibility of 700s on my commute again, even though it is (comparatively) very short.

 

[Fincra5]

Given the current lease of 387s doesn't expire until 2028... it will probably be 379s, I'd guess, they're AC only, basically the same tech and would require very little conversion training from 387s.

It allows 387s to go South and work with 377s (the whole point of the Arura Project), as they are AC/DC. Which will probably be needed (well already are really...) for May 24 TT, especially ad SN has lost 40+ 455 units and is just about to lose 19x 313 units.

ETCS can be fitted to all Electorstars, which is the long term plan anyway...

 

[Gaelan]

Just imagine how much would have been withdrawn/scrapped by the DfT if it wasn’t on lease!

Quite the opposite, I would think. Surely the whole "withdrawing rolling stock as a cost-cutting measure" thing only happens because the trains weren't owned by the TOCs - if they were, there would be a lower cost (just maintenance) to keeping around, and using, as many trains as needed.

 

[JonathanH]

Quite the opposite, I would think. Surely the whole "withdrawing rolling stock as a cost-cutting measure" thing only happens because the trains weren't owned by the TOCs - if they were, there would be a lower (just maintenance) to keeping around, and using, as many trains as needed.

No. Network South East (and other parts of British Rail) cut back obsolete rolling stock in the early 1990s in the light of a similar funding and passenger demand issue, long before trains were being leased.

There are maintenance savings from eliminating old trains, as well as savings in other operational costs.

 

[bramling]

That's a fair point - I only know about it because of the discussions on here, and even then until this thread I assumed it would just be the Ely terminators, as it was (I think) in 2021.



Is that likely to be complicated by the services that are only 12-cars on Tuesday through Thursday? Seems from RTT that they are set to continue in the new timetable.

Not able to have a look, however I’d doubt it. I would expect the Monday and Friday diagrams to be essentially the same just without the extra unit being attached. I’m not going to lay a fortune on it though!

When I get an opportunity I’ll have a proper look, if someone doesn’t beat me to it of course.

 

[Magdalia]

Surely the whole "withdrawing rolling stock as a cost-cutting measure" thing only happens because the trains weren't owned by the TOCs - if they were, there would be a lower cost (just maintenance) to keeping around, and using, as many trains as needed.

No. Fleet cutbacks are a key part of controlling costs when revenue falls and it has been that way for as long as I can remember.

The big cutbacks in the diesel locomotive fleet in 1968, 1971/72, 1975/76 and 1980/81 all followed economic recessions, cutting costs to match falling revenue.

In economic terms class 379s now are similar to the diesel locomotives kept in store at Swindon in 1981/82.

 

[jagardner1984]

Obviously there is the overriding concern of politicians of all flavours to give the appearance of government debt falling or being under control. All the while finding ever more convoluted ways of sourcing wonga-esque methods of funding clearly public projects and assets (PFI, rail financing etc) to keep the capital expenditure “off book” - but at vastly increased costs to the tax/fare payer.

It also raises the question of whether dozens of micro fleets of 10, 20, 30 units all with different designs and training requirements are a timebomb compared to the mass production of much smaller number of classes in the 70s, 80s, 90s.

Redeploying Sprinters still proving the solution to some capacity issues at all extremes of the country even now.

 

[D365]

It also raises the question of whether dozens of micro fleets of 10, 20, 30 units all with different designs and training requirements are a timebomb compared to the mass production of much smaller number of classes in the 70s, 80s, 90s.

Too much 'parameterisation' of the new Aventra fleets. Each franchise was drawn up with vastly differing requirements for passenger transportation. And to add to that, the different levels of acceptance for train crews at each operator. What goes for one, doesn't go for the other...

 

[bramling]

That's a fair point - I only know about it because of the discussions on here, and even then until this thread I assumed it would just be the Ely terminators, as it was (I think) in 2021.



Is that likely to be complicated by the services that are only 12-cars on Tuesday through Thursday? Seems from RTT that they are set to continue in the new timetable.

I can't say I'm remotely looking forward to seeing the possibility of 700s on my commute again, even though it is (comparatively) very short.

Okay the good news for you is that there’s only a couple of 700 workings which reach Kings Lynn, and as I suggested they avoid core commuter services:
1T94 0602 King’s Cross to Kings Lynn (this is a new service and replaces what was a Thameslink King’s Cross to Cambridge service as far as Cambridge, which also means a reduction from 700/1 to 700/0 - though not really a problem at that time of morning!).
1T38 1442 King’s Cross to Kings Lynn
1T15 0812 Kings Lynn to King’s Cross
1T49 1642 Kings Lynn to King’s Cross

The bad news is that 700/0s will appear on Ely services five times on weekdays.

It’s a similar picture on Saturdays, though less to Kings Lynn and more to Ely.

The interesting question is that if this arrangement is indeed intended to be temporary, then these handful of disgrams will require to be replaced by 8-10 387s or equivalent. Add in another 5-7 to replace what’s going to be 700 working on the peak Peterborough services, and we’re not far short of the low end of the tender. But what are around 8x displaced 700 (mainly 700/0) going to do?

 

[Failed Unit]

Okay the good news for you is that there’s only a couple of 700 workings which reach Kings Lynn, and as I suggested they avoid core commuter services:
1T94 0602 King’s Cross to Kings Lynn (this is a new service and replaces what was a Thameslink King’s Cross to Cambridge service as far as Cambridge, which also means a reduction from 700/1 to 700/0 - though not really a problem at that time of morning!).
1T38 1442 King’s Cross to Kings Lynn
1T15 0812 Kings Lynn to King’s Cross
1T49 1642 Kings Lynn to King’s Cross

The bad news is that 700/0s will appear on Ely services five times on weekdays.

It’s a similar picture on Saturdays, though less to Kings Lynn and more to Ely.

I will soon be working out which services out of Welwyn Garden city I need to use to avoid the 700s aswell. But with what you have said it looks like the 700s will be in the minority

 

[bramling]

I will soon be working out which services out of Welwyn Garden city I need to use to avoid the 700s aswell. But with what you have said it looks like the 700s will be in the minority

Yes it seems they are. At some point I’ll do a full list, but unlikely to be soon due to time constraints on my part!

I used to have a listing which was colour coded according to 700/0, 700/1, 365 or 387. It’s a shame one of those very sadly no longer features.

 

[Failed Unit]

Yes it seems they are. At some point I’ll do a full list, but unlikely to be soon due to time constraints on my part!

I know the timetable construction was different, but the last time the interworked during the Kings Cross reconstruction works, it was very rare to see a class 700 on the route. Certainly in the peak you had the 387s (which meant more seats)

 

[bramling]

I know the timetable construction was different, but the last time the interworked during the Kings Cross reconstruction works, it was very rare to see a class 700 on the route. Certainly in the peak you had the 387s (which meant more seats)

Different this time unfortunately, mainly due to the need for 12-car 1Txx services to be 387, which wasn’t the case during the KX works as everything was 8.

 

[MikeWM]

Okay the good news for you is that there’s only a couple of 700 workings which reach Kings Lynn, and as I suggested they avoid core commuter services:

Excellent, thanks. I don't generally get any of those.

The bad news is that 700/0s will appear on Ely services five times on weekdays.

That I'm not surprised about. Will I have to avoid the 0947 Ely-KGX then? (I recently moved office and are now a bit closer to Cambridge North, so I've half-switched to the 1018 anyway, maybe I'll make that permanent).

It’s a similar picture on Saturdays, though less to Kings Lynn and more to Ely.

Mildly irritating, though with the never-ending engineering work every weekend and the immenent removal of the London Travelcard, I'll be going to London a lot less anyway.

 

[Wolfie]

I wonder if this is one of those, playing bidders off against each other to get good deal

379s, spare 350s, even a rehash of the 458s if SWR abandon them again.

Not really any spare 387s to throw into the mix.

I suppose if Anglia thought it had a surplus of 720s, could offer to sub-lease those out (wrong length, but could variation be accepted if price was attracive)

So quite a lot of options in theory.

Given that the 458s are DC capable only l seriously doubt that they are candidates....

 

[bramling]

That I'm not surprised about. Will I have to avoid the 0947 Ely-KGX then?

8/387, you’ll be pleased to hear.

(I recently moved office and are now a bit closer to Cambridge North, so I've half-switched to the 1018 anyway, maybe I'll make that permanent).

8/387 as well.

Mildly irritating, though with the never-ending engineering work every weekend and the immenent removal of the London Travelcard, I'll be going to London a lot less anyway.

Join the club! Indeed you’re quite late to that particular party.

 

[MikeWM]

8/387, you’ll be pleased to hear.

I am, thanks

Join the club! Indeed you’re quite late to that particular party.

By no means the only reason, but it doesn't help that much of the choice from Cambridge is now a 700 or a 720, which are two of the worst trains on the network for passenger comfort and experience. Quite a change from just a few years ago when the choice was between a 365 and a 379

 

[Wivenswold]

I'd give GN 40 of our 720s for 379s here on GA. They'd be perfect for longer commuter trips from Stowmarket, Ipswich and Clacton as well as good subs for 745s on the Norwich trips.
Though I'll defend the 720 to a point, they're pretty decent for new trains even if they've got too many seats everywhere. I'm convinced they'd be of more use elsewhere on AC inner suburban routes (though not to Moorgate obviously).

 

[physics34]

Given the current lease of 387s doesn't expire until 2028... it will probably be 379s, I'd guess, they're AC only, basically the same tech and would require very little conversion training from 387s.

It allows 387s to go South and work with 377s (the whole point of the Arura Project), as they are AC/DC. Which will probably be needed (well already are really...) for May 24 TT, especially ad SN has lost 40+ 455 units and is just about to lose 19x 313 units.

ETCS can be fitted to all Electorstars, which is the long term plan anyway...

Rumour has it that SN want to increase the service from Dec, but clearly cant at the mo due to lack of stock so there could be something in all this

 

[bramling]

I'd give GN 40 of our 720s for 379s here on GA. They'd be perfect for longer commuter trips from Stowmarket, Ipswich and Clacton as well as good subs for 745s on the Norwich trips.
Though I'll defend the 720 to a point, they're pretty decent for new trains even if they've got too many seats everywhere. I'm convinced they'd be of more use elsewhere on AC inner suburban routes (though not to Moorgate obviously).

No thanks we don’t want them on GN. Bad enough with the 700s. We’ll take the 379s though, even if they’re probably mouldy by now.

 

[JonathanH]

Rumour has it that SN want to increase the service from Dec, but clearly cant at the mo due to lack of stock so there could be something in all this

Not on the Redhill to Tonbridge line where they are proposing a 33% cut in the peaks to free up one unit. Southern may be able to change services by tweaking the allocations of units again. Is a tender necessary to get costings of different options where some of those costings involve a new contract, or can it be done informally?

 

[bramling]

For those interested I have put the May 2023 Undesiro diagrams on the timetable changes thread.

Reduction in 700/0 diagrams to 4; and increase in 387 diagrams to 31.

 

[Fincra5]

"Undesiro" love it.

 

[bramling]

"Undesiro" love it.

There’s another bit on the end which rhymes with city too!

 

[XCTurbostar]

Interesting that the tender states ‘100MPH’ when the 387s are 110MPH so I’d imagine this would not be able to keep GN timings? or is this negligible.

I couldn’t help thinking this tender also fits the Renatus 321s.. minus the AC/DC part.

It’s almost certain to be targeting the 379s.

 

[bramling]

Interesting that the tender states ‘100MPH’ when the 387s are 110MPH so I’d imagine this would not be able to keep GN timings? or is this negligible.

I couldn’t help thinking this tender also fits the Renatus 321s.. minus the AC/DC part.

It’s almost certain to be targeting the 379s.

The 387s don’t do above 100 mph on GN, and it isn’t really an issue with the 700s limited to that speed. Indeed nowadays there isn’t that much 387 work on the fast lines north of Hitchin.

Up until this coming timetable 387s have always been timed with 365 timings. This is changing this month, as far as I know 387s and 700s are now being timed the same. It will be interesting to see if this affects performance.