Great British Railways: Thoughts, predictions, speculation

[adamedwards]

World Class Rail GB surely? Everything this Govt does is world class. Which will also be the new name for First. Standard will be Levelled up Class.

 

[irish_rail]

Oh he knows about transport alright.

I presume you are being sarcastic? Else why would he believe in a driverless railway? Anyone with the slightest bit of insight can see that is an expensive no hoper idea dreamed up by fantasists......

 

[Bald Rick]

I presume you are being sarcastic? Else why would he believe in a driverless railway? Anyone with the slightest bit of insight can see that is an expensive no hoper idea dreamed up by fantasists......

There are driverless railways all over the world. It’s a fair challenge.

But one view about driverless railways (or not) does not mean that you don’t have a good idea about transport generally. It’s a big subject.

 

[irish_rail]

There are driverless railways all over the world. It’s a fair challenge.

But one view about driverless railways (or not) does not mean that you don’t have a good idea about transport generally. It’s a big subject.

But to think you could turn the UKs sprawling network driverless, at an astronomical cost to the taxpayer is naive to put it mildly. Rather takes away any credibility the guy may have , although I seem to remember he was a disgraced journalist with zero credibility anyway!

 

[Cantab26]

Surely a transport advisor needs to know something about transport?! Hopefully he's moved on from his fanatical driverless trains ideas that would cost the taxpayer an absolute fortune to implement and concentrate on genuinely improving the UK rail network for all those who use it.

Don’t even get me started on Andrew Gilligan and some of the trouble he’s been causing of late!

Closed doors, unfortunately, so I’m not allowed to divulge the details.

 

[irish_rail]

Don’t even get me started on Andrew Gilligan and some of the trouble he’s been causing of late!

Closed doors, unfortunately, so I’m not allowed to divulge the details.

Why am I not surprised!

 

[Bald Rick]

But to think you could turn the UKs sprawling network driverless

I’ve not heard him suggest that. But in a world where the whole railway has ETCS and ATO (conceiveable within 30 years), changing the role of the driver to a DLR style train captain is not beyond the realms of possibility.

 

[Socanxdis]

ConRail

 

[irish_rail]

I’ve not heard him suggest that. But in a world where the whole railway has ETCS and ATO (conceiveable within 30 years), changing the role of the driver to a DLR style train captain is not beyond the realms of possibility.

ATO in 30 years?! With what money?! On HS2 perhaps, no advantage whatsoever on most British routes.

 

[Bald Rick]

ATO in 30 years?! With what money?! On HS2 perhaps, no advantage whatsoever on most British routes.

Most routes will have ETCS within 30 years. ATO is a relatively simple (and cheap) add on. The most expensive part of ATO is actually the costs of training drivers how to not drive trains! Anyway, we are off topic.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Rail Britannia!

I'll get my Hi-Viz Jacket...

Where's the 'like' button?

 

[popeter45]

with this change i wonder how the branding of the new consession system will work?
same as now with TOC's desiging there livery and brand?, specified livery/branding per consession or a unified livery/brand?

 

[Cantab26]

ConRail

Perhaps with this logo:



[Image: connex logo and wordmark]

 

[HST274]

One question. What does pay as you go in cities mean. As in does it mean you can go contactless Glasgow to penzance or contactless within cities.

 

[_toommm_]

One question. What does pay as you go in cities mean. As in does it mean you can go contactless Glasgow to penzance or contactless within cities.

Contactless within cities, and probably PTE areas too such as South Yorkshire, West Yorkshire (Metro) etc.

 

[Skie]

Contactless pay-as-you-go travel but no wholesale fixing of the ticketing system?

That'll be known as "second mortgage as-you-go" then.

 

[YorksLad12]

As long as there's a sensible brand name, consistent branding (ie: Rail Alphabet, double-arrow etc) throughout the country (possible excluding Scotland/Wales) and no political interference, I'm happy.


(I'm not convinced that the latter will actually happen... )

I read somewhere that the role out of the double-arrow symbol and Rail Alphabet signage was just about complete when privatisation hit...

Also: the RDG's version of the double arrow has been subtley altered so that the diagonal arms are longer. Less subtley, the explosion-in-a-paint-factory colour scheme

Reading that a bit worrying to see the name Andrew Gilligan mentioned if that is who I think it is, has some very strange ideas about driverless trains and what not.

If I ever make it to a forum meet, ask me for my Gilligan story, just after HS2 was announced (several governments ago). I use it as an example of how PR is also about keeping your name *out* of the papers, not just about getting it in there...

Oh: and I'd go with TfGB or TfB, as Something-for-Something seems to be the norm these days (as well as putting Team before the name of the team instead of after. Sigh). But it would have to be translatable into Welsh as well... ideally we'd bring back The Merioneth and Llantisilly Railway Traction Company Limited.

 

[JonathanH]

Contactless pay-as-you-go travel but no wholesale fixing of the ticketing system?

That'll be known as "second mortgage as-you-go" then.

Are you interpreting "wholesale fixing of the ticketing system" simply as making fares cheaper?

I do concede that contactless pay-as-you-go working with some kind of backroom system to match journeys to the current fare structure would be the worst of both worlds.

 

[whoosh]

It is called National Rail now (actually a term coined by TfL) and nobody seems to think it problematic that I have noticed.

I think it might have had it's origins in National Rail Enquiries, which is how telephones were answered in enquiry bureaux immediately after privatisation.

'National Rail' fits the bill I reckon.

 

[Elshad]

National Rail would be a perfectly suitable name IMHO. It is already well established and is sufficiently vague in terms of whether the “nation” refers to England or GB/UK that it wouldn’t run afoul of the current devolution fad.

 

[SynthD]

Are you interpreting "wholesale fixing of the ticketing system" simply as making fares cheaper?

I do concede that contactless pay-as-you-go working with some kind of backroom system to match journeys to the current fare structure would be the worst of both worlds.

The article does seem to imply they don’t want to fix the ticketing/fare system as it would inevitably need more subsidy.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Short term fix to offer better commuter fares for people coming in 2-3 days/week to encourage a return to work. But this costs if as and when the return to the cities for work is permanent so, unsurprisingly, it appears that the Treasury has approved only a trial period. Of course, the Indian variant may slow everything down again in any case... Bear in mind that many of the people dealing with Transport in government are ex-London and are totally sold on the PAYG smart card model: it remains to be seen if they are thinking of TfL-level fares on national rail, however, and it's very unlikely that Treasury will accept that.

 

[DerekC]

It's fiction until the DfT (with cabinet approval) announces something specific and actually devolves the powers mentioned.
Although as it's likely to be a government leak to be in The Times it's probably close to the mark, and imminent.
I doubt it will be "new BR", more "new SRA with more teeth".
Except in Scotland and Wales, who might get more powers, not fewer.
The DfT will be constrained in what it can do immediately before it has new legislation, and also by existing contracts (eg the long-term rolling stock contracts).
And it won't be nationalised enough to satisfy the unions.
Looks like fares revision is "too hard" too.
I imagine the DfT will have until the end of this financial year (Mar 2022) to rework the railway industry organisation, and maybe take another couple of years for full implementation.
In the current railway, much depends on the 5-year Control Period timetable for Network Rail (HLOS/SoFA etc).
Assuming it stays like that, the next planning cycle starts next year (for CP7, 2024-29).

That's a good summary of the key issues. The only ones I would add are between DfT and Rail Britannia (I like that one):

• who decides how much money is to be spent on what?
• how do Ministers retain political control so that they can favour their own party and get good photo ops?

 

[Skie]

Are you interpreting "wholesale fixing of the ticketing system" simply as making fares cheaper?

No, just a fixing of the incredible disparity that can occur for people travelling on the same train.

 

[yorksrob]

The most important thing in all of this is that local and regional lines continue to be supported and promoted, not sacrificed at the drop of a hat.

 

[hwl]

Short term fix to offer better commuter fares for people coming in 2-3 days/week to encourage a return to work. But this costs if as and when the return to the cities for work is permanent so, unsurprisingly, it appears that the Treasury has approved only a trial period. Of course, the Indian variant may slow everything down again in any case... Bear in mind that many of the people dealing with Transport in government are ex-London and are totally sold on the PAYG smart card model: it remains to be seen if they are thinking of TfL-level fares on national rail, however, and it's very unlikely that Treasury will accept that.

Having authored for a client (quite along time ago now!) one of the more substantive responses to the ticketing inquiry a few years ago, the leaked plan from what I can see is exactly in line with what we proposed based on detail feasibility and cost impacts and case studies.
Fare reform is a multi step process with huge number of potential losers on the passenger side which will be toxic.
Early stages involve selected PAYG roll out as this helps grow usage.
PAYG (initially) would just be in individual city /PTE type areas with the aim of making it multimodal. This drives rail usage.
ITSO with DfT in charge isn't going to work. TfL are the technology thought leaders
ITSO rail rollout to date has been a bit variable with key being the best and everyone else's less good from a user PoV. Poor user experience = low uptake... High uptake is needed.
Extending TfL PAYG to NSE boundaries in many cases is huge win and about two thirds of the overall solution.
LU and other metro / light rail usage needs to be included in analysis, when you do the picture and understand changes.
Long distance ticketing is only about 10% of the market but higher cost (so app / printed 2d barcode based solutions) and with demand based pricing often skewed by limited capacity (bookable seats) on certain short legs of journeys, most of these capacity gaps need to be addressed before any reform.
Large potential issues with local fares crossing PTE boundaries.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

He has been Boris’s transport adviser in No 10 since he became PM.

Its where it says in DT article

Andrew Gilligan, the Prime Minister’s transport adviser, is understood to have rewritten large parts of the review in recent weeks.

The review has led to mounting tensions between the Department for Transport and the Treasury after a number of initial proposals were rejected because they were too expensive.

So Williams-Shapps was too expensive and is the Gilligan-Williams-Shapps review.

Anyhow the industry needs to move on and as log as it does away with Rail Delivery Group and regulatory side of ORR that will be good. Also a reorganisation on this scale leaves the status quo in place for several years so should allay short term fears over jobs but the long term may not look so rosie.

Anyhow we will have to wait and see when its rolled out.

 

[yorksrob]

Large potential issues with local fares crossing PTE boundaries.

That's always been a fly in the ointment, particularly going from somewhere more transport savvy like West Yorkshire, into the motor counties of East and North Yorkshire.

Some of these issues could be ameliorated by a National railcard type scheme.

 

[furnessvale]

BTP nearly got kicked out of Scotland seemingly largely on the basis of it having 'British' in the title...

That and the fact that the SNP hated the idea of having police officers in Scotland not under their control.

 

[hkstudent]

That and the fact that the SNP hated the idea of having police officers in Scotland not under their control.

Well, they want Scotland for Scots Rule.
Maybe a good idea to create a Scottish Transport Police then...