Great British Railways: Replaces Network Rail & more changes - updates only (non-speculative)

[Robertj21a]

The London commuter market is a very different market to much of the rest of the UK where there is far less a dependancy upon rail and more capacity for competition. I do get the feeling that this policy is one that sees rail primarily through a London lens.

Very likely. London/SE invariably seem to believe that they know everything despite key people rarely venturing outside the M25.

 

[The Planner]

Well, there's this in the Forward on p7 of the White Paper, repeated in the main body:


Not much room for doubt there, I would have thought.
Doubtless there are different levels of activity and not all will be in GBR HQ, but the strategic bit will surely?
No doubt it will impact the DfT, RDG and current TOC teams too.
I'd expect GBR (HQ) to manage the timetable cycle and publish the GBTT.
Not sure about the WTT, it might stay with the Regions/Routes , which are bound to be somewhat separate.
Speculation of course.
It quite clearly says NR will be "absorbed" into GBR.

The WTT is under one roof, done by regional teams, but all in the same place.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Skimming briskly through all of the above and the media reports, can the proposals be summarised thus: franchising and timetabling are to be moved from the DoT to Network Rail which will then be called Great BR?

No.
GBR is new and takes over NR (timetabling and operation) and many of the current functions of DfT (franchising), RDG (fares) and the TOCs (ticketing).
They are keen to say that it is not just an enlarged NR, though I suppose many will see it like that.
And arranged in 5 Regions (not clear if they are the same as NR's 5 Regions, but very likely).
TOCs will be slimmed down, run the specified services, sell the specified tickets and hand the revenue to GBR.
The TOC boundaries are likely to change over time, and contracts will be tendered for periodically.
No change to devolved operations (TfW, Scotrail, Merseyrail, LO etc) or to open access or freight, or rolling stock.

 

[LAX54]

GBR is new and takes over NR (timetabling and operation) and many of the current functions of DfT (franchising), RDG (fares) and the TOCs (ticketing).
They are keen to say that it is not just an enlarged NR, though I suppose many will see it like that.
And arranged in 5 Regions (not clear if they are the same as NR's 5 Regions, but very likely).
TOCs will be slimmed down, run the specified services, sell the specified tickets and hand the revenue to GBR.
The TOC boundaries are likely to change over time, and contracts will be tendered for periodically.
No change to devolved operations (TfW, Scotrail, Merseyrail, LO etc) or to open access or freight, or rolling stock.

Remember NR already have a hand in the WTT, and on the fares front, it says only 'some' fares will be done by GBR

 

[GRALISTAIR]

And in the Williams-Shapps review, the Integrated Rail Plan is referenced as being: “This is just the beginning: the government will shortly be announcing further major projects in the Midlands and North, including in our Integrated Rail Plan, electrifcation schemes and further Beeching reopening projects.”

That is what I read too. Optimism from me.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Remember NR already have a hand in the WTT, and on the fares front, it says only 'some' fares will be done by GBR

I presume that's to cover the PTE and TfL situations who remain capable of setting "National Rail" fares in their areas.
TfW and Scotrail also have their own remit on fares, even if issued as GBR tickets.
And then there might be an Advance layer, set by long-distance TOCs directly, who appear to be getting different contracts to the rest.
Much as now, the regulation will be on season tickets and walk-on fares.

It's certainly NR's WTT, and I think it belongs in the operational Regions/Routes.

 

[AdamWW]

I found this interesting: "funding to advance plans to upgrade the current signalling to state-of-the-art digital signalling from Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth and Pwllheli."

I presume they mean upgrading ETCS, but if I didn't know differently I'd assume they were talking about upgrading from something somewhat older and not already digital.

 

[The Planner]

It's certainly NR's WTT, and I think it belongs in the operational Regions/Routes.

It doesn't. It sits within system operator.

 

[BrianW]

Did discussion stop here #225? I have an email referring me to something by Jimm #234?? Mods- Am I missing something? p9? Need to 'refresh'?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Did discussion stop here #225? I have an email referring me to something by Jimm #234?? Mods- Am I missing something? p9? Need to 'refresh'?

I think some judicious pruning has packed various posts off to more appropriate threads.

 

[AdamWW]

Just seen this in the report:
"Advance purchase tickets have been a great innovation of privatisation"

Who else remembers them existing in the BR days?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Just seen this in the report:
"Advance purchase tickets have been a great innovation of privatisation"
Who else remembers them existing in the BR days?

They certainly existed (were they Apex to start with?).
But the private TOCs, notably the long distance ones, took it to a new level of sophistication.
They now drive a significant section of the market, which the BR offer didn't.
My recollection is that Apex was introduced on long-distance Regional services, but not NSE or Intercity at that stage.
eg Norwich-Liverpool, Cardiff-Manchester.
I think they were returns only, and set a bit less than the off-peak return, and you needed to book 7 days in advance?
Today it's all about discounted single fares bought right up to departure time, replacing many Anytime Singles.
BR would never have contemplated that.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Just seen this in the report:
"Advance purchase tickets have been a great innovation of privatisation"

Who else remembers them existing in the BR days?

I do and bought the odd one - there were also period returns - but I also agree with @LNW-GW Joint post above.

 

[24Grange]

Very likely. London/SE invariably seem to believe that they know everything despite key people rarely venturing outside the M25.

This never seems to change sadly and "skews" thinking and the transport system.

 

[AdamWW]

They certainly existed (were they Apex to start with?).
But the private TOCs, notably the long distance ones, took it to a new level of sophistication.
They now drive a significant section of the market, which the BR offer didn't.
My recollection is that Apex was introduced on long-distance Regional services, but not NSE or Intercity at that stage.
eg Norwich-Liverpool, Cardiff-Manchester.
I think they were returns only, and set a bit less than the off-peak return, and you needed to book 7 days in advance?
Today it's all about discounted single fares bought right up to departure time, replacing many Anytime Singles.
BR would never have contemplated that.

I'm pretty sure they did exist on Intercity.

Yes they were returns only, as was the case well into the privatisation era.

We saw a gradual evolution of advance purchase tickets after privatisation to become what we have now. Offering advances on the day of travel is a fairly recent phenomenon.

I don't really see why similar changes would have been unlikely under BR.

 

[Brooklands]

They certainly existed (were they Apex to start with?).
But the private TOCs, notably the long distance ones, took it to a new level of sophistication.
They now drive a significant section of the market, which the BR offer didn't.
My recollection is that Apex was introduced on long-distance Regional services, but not NSE or Intercity at that stage.
eg Norwich-Liverpool, Cardiff-Manchester.
I think they were returns only, and set a bit less than the off-peak return, and you needed to book 7 days in advance?
Today it's all about discounted single fares bought right up to departure time, replacing many Anytime Singles.
BR would never have contemplated that.

I joined BR in 1993 and 2 ‘Advance’ fares were available for Intercity journeys. Apex - at least 7 days in ahead, and Super Advance which was up to 18.00 the day before.
Both quota controlled of course.

 

[AdamWW]

I joined BR in 1993 and 2 ‘Advance’ fares were available for Intercity journeys. Apex - at least 7 days in ahead, and Super Advance which was up to 18.00 the day before.
Both quota controlled of course.

Ah yes "Super advance" - the original point being, as I recall, that you could travel at supersaver prices on a "white" day in return for committing to a particular train.

A large factor in the increased role of advance tickets must be the ease of purchasing that the internet provides - and that would have happened regardless of who was running the railways.

 

[Annetts key]

I presume this works for Easyjet and Ryanair because they can sell their aircraft on to other airlines at a fair fraction of what they paid for them.
I can't see how that works for rail in the UK.
And while it's clear that there could be more standardisation in the UK than there is, the nature of the network is that it's going to need more variety in rolling stock than an airline (or coach company) can get away with.

Err, the vast majority of airlines don’t own their aircraft. They lease them from companies that are often owned/operated by banks or similar groups.

I found this interesting: "funding to advance plans to upgrade the current signalling to state-of-the-art digital signalling from Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth and Pwllheli."

I presume they mean upgrading ETCS, but if I didn't know differently I'd assume they were talking about upgrading from something somewhat older and not already digital.

I’m always amused by the talk about digital signalling. Widespread electrical digital signalling has been around since at least the mid 1960s, in the form of electrical relays. The type of relay used by the railway for signalling functions can only be in discrete states, that is digital... A normal ‘line’ relay is either energised (on) or de-energised (off). In the same way as a conventional on/off light switch in your house or office.

And the railways don’t do state-of-the-art signalling, only tried and very well tested mature technology. Both for safety reasons and for reliability reasons.

And computerised signalling was introduced in the 1980s by BR, and is known as SSI - solid state interlocking.

I would love to know where we get the people who write and promote this rubbish. Where they found living in a boarded up basement along with our politicians?

What they are likely to mean is ETCS or ERTMS

Note that Network Rail already has plans to introduce these...

 

[Ianno87]

Just seen this in the report:
"Advance purchase tickets have been a great innovation of privatisation"

Who else remembers them existing in the BR days?

The yield management undertaken now is far more sophisticated than BR days.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The yield management undertaken now is far more sophisticated than BR days.

Indeed, and the move to singles (pioneered by VT) got rid of the silly situation that you could only have an Apex (say) if it was available in the quota on both trains, rather silly.

 

[Mikey C]

Advance singles are massively useful, especially when you're not doing a conventional return trip

 

[AdamWW]

The yield management undertaken now is far more sophisticated than BR days.

Of course it is.

But it's not obvious to me that it's more sophisticated than BR would have now if it was still around.

I’m always amused by the talk about digital signalling. Widespread electrical digital signalling has been around since at least the mid 1960s, in the form of electrical relays. The type of relay used by the railway for signalling functions can only be in discrete states, that is digital... A normal ‘line’ relay is either energised (on) or de-energised (off). In the same way as a conventional on/off light switch in your house or office.

While I take your point, I don't think either would normally be referred to as digital.

What they are likely to mean is ETCS or ERTMS

I'm sure they do.

Note that Network Rail already has plans to introduce these...

I note that they already have from (almost) Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth and Pwllheli, which is what the report was talking about. Hence my amusement.

 

[Bald Rick]

I note that they already have from (almost) Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth and Pwllheli, which is what the report was talking about. Hence my amusement.

And from London Bridge / Elephant and castle to (almost) Kentish Town / Finsbury Park.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What they are likely to mean is ETCS or ERTMS
Note that Network Rail already has plans to introduce these...

But NR is years behind the rest of Europe rolling it out.
France, Japan and Germany have all had cab signalling and ATC for decades.

 

[Bald Rick]

France, Japan and Germany have all had cab signalling and ATC for decades.

So has the U.K.

 

[Annetts key]

While I take your point, I don't think either would normally be referred to as digital.

Well, consider that digital computers were at one time made using electromechanical relays, details at this link. And relays have been used for digital logic circuits far earlier than this. So as far as I am concerned, U.K. railway signalling systems which use relays as their logic systems (that we call interlocking) are digital systems.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

This is pretty pointed from the first chapter

Failings at Network Rail were central to the collapse of the timetable in 2018 which originally triggered this Review. Despite reform, its costs also remain too high. Evidence of the consequences can be seen every day on the network and experienced by passengers and communities: Oxford, Sheffield and Swansea are still waiting for the electric train service promised over a decade ago and after electrification projects were delayed and scaled back in part due to costs spiralling from £800 million to £2.8 billion on Great Western’s electrification programme. Overspecification, gold-plating and disconnected decision making and funding inhibited improvements for passengers and pushed up costs across the sector, which were ultimately reflected in rising fares and taxpayer subsidy

 

[Brystar35]

I am a foreigner living in the United States and I looked at this announcement and read some of the William Shapps report for the new Public Body "Great British Railways" I have to say I am very happy about this!

About time too! I am happy that there is going to be Passenger focused and with freight as well, Also Electrification is back and expansion of Overhead lines for the Major Railway lines and Third Rail for the southern region of Britain Along with Battery and Hydrogen powered Trains

The flexible season tickets is an awesome idea along with prices discount I wonder if they will have a National Rail pass that way a Person like me visiting the UK can purchase and travel around Britain I say it will open the doors to many. I do want to travel to the UK lots of places to see!

I am hoping to see a major Electrification of major lines in the coming years such as Completion of the GWR electrification of Swansea, Bristol Temple Meads, Midland Main Line to Sheffield, Leeds, and more, North Wales Coast Line electrification (I hope this happens), Hull and Shelby Electrification, Huddersfield line electrification, and many more. I am excited to see the Elecitrfication routes they will implant more in the coming days and weeks. Electrification is the future and the UK needs more of that and sustainable renewable sources such as Battery and Hydrogen Power, I understand Electrification won't be for all routes Just the major trafficked ones but minor routes like Branches will benefit from Battery and Hydrogen-powered trains.

I am looking forward to what they say in the coming weeks but I am proud to see a country take forward what they need, I wish I can say the same to the USA but the UK Rail system has potential plus like Shapps said they are innovators and I agree.

In the USA we are having improvements just recently Amtrak and the US Government has announced a major expansion of Amtrak services which makes it exciting that Railways are being expanded here about time too!

 

[Bald Rick]

This is pretty pointed from the first chapter

‘Bare faced cheek’ comes to mind!

 

[coppercapped]

Let's not mention that the big 4 were financially in a deep hole at the end of WW2 huh....

All of them were cash positive, even the LNER which was just cash positive.

Your point being?