Great British Railways: Livery, branding and appearance?

[jon0844]

I'd prefer a dark colour background and white text for a station name sign, and ideally you'd make the text reflective so it can easily be seen (the lighting from the train itself helping illuminate it). But if you did it reverse, make the background reflective instead - like a road sign.

Of course with modern PIS, looking out the window to see where you are at night isn't as big a deal as it once was.

Keeping the signs clean is a good idea, especially any signs near trees. As said above, TfL seem to manage to keep their stations looking good. If people enjoyed the Network Rail style guide, the TfL ones are just as comprehensive - perhaps more so.

 

[Bletchleyite]

TfL certainly manage.

Mostly blue on white. And with line colour flashes etc.

 

[YorksLad12]

Yes, true.



I don't think that's possible with black-on-white. There needs to be a strong branding designed, and those design elements to pervade everything, e.g. signage. DB do it very well, for instance.

I still think getting Best Impressions in would be better than someone who harks back to old BR.

The only thing I'd hold over from "old BR" is the double arrow itself, which never really went away anyway.

Playing Devil's Advocaat slightly: they're going to do Liverpool Street as a test but I'd go one or two further and try it on the more open stations such as Leeds, York or Newcastle as well (it'll work with Manchester Piccadilly, I think). If it's being rolled out to all 2,575-ish stations then pick a couple of smaller ones as well. Test it properly, get passenger/customer feedback.

We're all commenting on a paper design when it really needs to escape into the wild...

 

[JaJaWa]

Playing Devil's Advocaat slightly: they're going to do Liverpool Street as a test but I'd go one or two further and try it on the more open stations such as Leeds, York or Newcastle as well (it'll work with Manchester Piccadilly, I think). If it's being rolled out to all 2,575-ish stations then pick a couple of smaller ones as well. Test it properly, get passenger/customer feedback.

We're all commenting on a paper design when it really needs to escape into the wild...

Paddington is first!

 

[Fincra5]

I know its old style but I'd say Downham Market station looks Modern, Fresh and Inviting in its NSE Paint Job.

 

[Purple Orange]

Playing Devil's Advocaat slightly: they're going to do Liverpool Street as a test but I'd go one or two further and try it on the more open stations such as Leeds, York or Newcastle as well (it'll work with Manchester Piccadilly, I think). If it's being rolled out to all 2,575-ish stations then pick a couple of smaller ones as well. Test it properly, get passenger/customer feedback.

We're all commenting on a paper design when it really needs to escape into the wild...

A station just up from me, Handforth, has a load of railway station signs with ‘Handforth’ on it, made in the style of signage from days gone by, Metrolink, London Underground, Merseyrail and railways in Germany, Japan, Ireland, France, plus an original sign from back in the day. It still has the Northern type sign in among it all, but you’d never know if you didn’t know already that was the official signage.

As for GBR, I’d like to see a range of different coloured logos, signs, liveries all under an umbrella style.

 

[YorksLad12]

Paddington is first!

Well somebody said Liverpool Street (and it wasn't me)!

 

[43096]

It's straight out of about 1979. Harking back to something that really was not that good for the passenger, though it was efficient for the taxpayer.

What has my expertise got to do with it? I am a customer and taxpayer - you know, the people who pay for the playing of trains - and my opinion is that black on white signage looks cheap, old-fashioned and generally nasty. It harks back to "halcyon" days of a basic, dirty railway run for its own convenience, not a modern, dynamic, customer-focussed future.

Oh, that MDTR (Modern Dynamic Thrusting Railway) we were promised 25 years ago... We're still waiting.

1980s BR really was rubbish. I don't see why people are harking back to it.

You're as guilty as those wanting to go back to BR, but the opposite - everything BR was bad. It's somewhere between, and one of the things BR got right was things like signage and, equally importantly, being consistent with it.

I still think getting Best Impressions in would be better than someone who harks back to old BR.

Here we go... Get Best Impressions in, presumably to re-hash the same old ideas that they've been doing time after time for the last 20+ years. As long as it has Grammer seats and Best Impressions squiggles on it, you're happy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oh, that MDTR (Modern Dynamic Thrusting Railway) we were promised 25 years ago... We're still waiting.

The railway certainly looks vastly better than it did in the 1980s. It's fragmented, but most of the branding genuinely looks good, modern, colourful, attractive etc. Blue and grey, and black on white signage, doesn't. It just looks drab and boring. Crikey, even most road signs aren't black on white.

You're as guilty as those wanting to go back to BR, but the opposite - everything BR was bad. It's somewhere between, and one of the things BR got right was things like signage

Disagree, it was drab. Heathrow, for example, had been using the black on yellow for a good while - bright, attractive and still readable. London Underground uses blue on white with line highlighting and other colour such as the roundel.

and, equally importantly, being consistent with it.

I agree about consistency, but it can be consistent and look good. The LM branding was done to an absolute "T" - always consistent, always clean, always attractive. LNR looks mediocre and amateur in comparison, for instance - but it is still better than simple, boring black on white.

Here we go... Get Best Impressions in, presumably to re-hash the same old ideas that they've been doing time after time for the last 20+ years. As long as it has Grammer seats and Best Impressions squiggles on it, you're happy.

Best Impressions haven't done everything right (I don't for instance like the VTEC branding package, particularly the livery, I think VTWC looked better*), but the entire London Midland marketing package was an absolute masterstroke, making a boring commuter railway with a low-cost operation on the side look really attractive. It's that sort of thing we need, not just making it look like the 1970s which was interesting for enthusiasts (because of the variety of diesel locomotives pulling window-leanable Mk1s and Mk2s) but down-at-heel and drab to everyone else.

And yes, I would hope for Grammer seating but am conscious that that is personal opinion. But what looks better, a knackered old 319 in tatty, debranded Thameslink livery and torn Thameslink interior, or how Northern have spruced them up to the point of looking brand-new?

* It's interesting that VTWC's in house designer then went on to do the LNR brand package, which to me is markedly inferior. I wonder if Virgin Group's standards and design briefs were better, or at least better managed?

 

[irish_rail]

Disagree, it was drab. Heathrow, for example, had been using the black on yellow for a good while - bright, attractive and still readable. London Underground uses blue on white with line highlighting and other colour such as the roundel.

But is drab really bad? I'd argue drab is often more stylish, timeless and clearer too, than bright attractive and wacky.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But is drab really bad?

Yes. The look and feel of stations, premises, signage etc is part of the marketing package.

I'd argue drab is often more stylish, timeless and clearer too, than bright attractive and wacky.

I don't think it needs to be wacky, but it does need a bit of life about it. A modern font (which I now concede Rail Alphabet 2 actually is, it's nothing like the original) and a bit of colour does no harm at all.

 

[HSTEd]

Yes. The look and feel of stations, premises, signage etc is part of the marketing package.

I'd argue slightly boring but dependable is the look we should be going for.

Of the various options in Europe I'd suggest emulating SBB as a result.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd argue slightly boring but dependable is the look we should be going for.

Of the various options in Europe I'd suggest emulating SBB as a result.

SBB of course has white on blue signage, and very good it looks too.

 

[HSTEd]

SBB of course has white on blue signage, and very good it looks too.

Additionally now multiple colour ePaper displays are becoming available, they offer some very interesting possibilities for something that feels closer to a flip board display than the mass of dot matrix or LCD screens we have now.

But theN I must admit I just love those Swiss style split board displays

 

[YorksLad12]

Additionally now multiple colour ePaper displays are becoming available, they offer some very interesting possibilities for something that feels closer to a flip board display than the mass of dot matrix or LCD screens we have now.

But theN I must admit I just love those Swiss style split board displays

Don't get me started... no, too late

Split-flap displays were great because you didn't need to dry your eyeballs out staring at them waiting for them to update - you heard the flapping sound and looked up. Now, everyone stands there letting their kids run riot while getting their pockets picked. I mean, if we can have the constant drone of pointless See It, Say It, Sorted messages why can't we have the flapping sound back when an LCD screen updates?

Harrumph.

 

[jon0844]

Additionally now multiple colour ePaper displays are becoming available, they offer some very interesting possibilities for something that feels closer to a flip board display than the mass of dot matrix or LCD screens we have now.

But theN I must admit I just love those Swiss style split board displays

I'd love to see more eInk displays, especially as the colour ones would be able to replace traditional posters and give timetable/engineering work information that can be updated in real-time.

Sadly, I think the cost to install (as well as the obvious risk of vandalism) means we're unlikely to see them anytime soon. I have no idea how the TfL trial went for the b&w ones at bus stops - but assume it didn't do well, likely down to cost too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd love to see more eInk displays, especially as the colour ones would be able to replace traditional posters and give timetable/engineering work information that can be updated in real-time.

Sadly, I think the cost to install (as well as the obvious risk of vandalism) means we're unlikely to see them anytime soon. I have no idea how the TfL trial went for the b&w ones at bus stops - but assume it didn't do well, likely down to cost too.

I don't think I'd go for e-ink for platform or on-train displays. Now OLED is becoming ubiquitous this will be the way to go for a clear and flexible display. If anything the plasma screens of the early 2000s were ahead of their time - the idea was good but the tech wasn't up to it due to burn-in issues.

What e-ink could replace, as it has for London bus stops, is timetable posters - relatively static information - and might furthermore provide a decent option for solar-powered, mobile-network-fed standalone PIS at quiet stations.

 

[Irascible]

I don't think I'd go for e-ink for platform or on-train displays. Now OLED is becoming ubiquitous this will be the way to go for a clear and flexible display. If anything the plasma screens of the early 2000s were ahead of their time - the idea was good but the tech wasn't up to it due to burn-in issues.

What e-ink could replace, as it has for London bus stops, is timetable posters - relatively static information - and might furthermore provide a decent option for solar-powered, mobile-network-fed standalone PIS at quiet stations.

OLED has pretty horrible burn-in issues too though.

A quiet chime sound ( let's not go back to that interminable flappy sound ) when information changes on a screen - not when the screen flips to another page - is a great idea.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A quiet chime sound ( let's not go back to that interminable flappy sound ) when information changes on a screen - not when the screen flips to another page - is a great idea.

Yes, agreed.

 

[jon0844]

I don't think I'd go for e-ink for platform or on-train displays. Now OLED is becoming ubiquitous this will be the way to go for a clear and flexible display. If anything the plasma screens of the early 2000s were ahead of their time - the idea was good but the tech wasn't up to it due to burn-in issues.

What e-ink could replace, as it has for London bus stops, is timetable posters - relatively static information - and might furthermore provide a decent option for solar-powered, mobile-network-fed standalone PIS at quiet stations.

As someone else said, OLED has burn in issues that are likely going to be a real issue for any situation where a lot of content remains the same. Yes, you can do tricks like shifting the pixels, but I think LCD still wins the day - and perhaps the future will be mini LEDs which can be a lot brighter. I think, much as I love screen tech, the humble dot matrix LED board is still king for big screens.

eInk is ideal for poster frames, timetables and anywhere else where high levels of readability are key - but you can now update in real-time remotely. There's so much scope for how these could be used to provide up-to-date, but fixed, information with an element of interactivity. A timetable that can be amended for engineering work on any given day, or show services that are cancelled.

Of course, there's something to be said for the fact that these days I suspect few people look at such posters and use an app instead. So, if anything the future might just be to get rid of poster frames for anything but the standard safety posters.

I think the cost will outweigh the benefits. It's still a lot cheaper to have staff change posters periodically, and I also doubt GBR is going to be investing in fancy 'new' tech anytime soon.

 

[HSTEd]

eInk is ideal for poster frames, timetables and anywhere else where high levels of readability are key - but you can now update in real-time remotely. There's so much scope for how these could be used to provide up-to-date, but fixed, information with an element of interactivity. A timetable that can be amended for engineering work on any given day, or show services that are cancelled.

Ultimately displays at most stations still only fill a fraction of the space available.

I imagine a future where a whole wall of the station concourse is entirely covered in eInk displays, showing every detail of each train to arrive in the near future at the station.

Displays even larger than the giant split flap displays of old.

 

[JaJaWa]

Just seen there is another mock-up of station with the new branding here:


Source: https://www.dezeen.com/2020/10/22/rail-alphabet-2-margaret-calvert-typeface-uk-stations/

 

[Bletchleyite]

Straight out of about 1975. Drab and boring.

 

[43096]

Drab and boring.

Much like your posts on the subject.

How about waiting to see what a station looks like in the flesh with the new look? Though given past form I doubt you'd change your mind.

 

[BrianW]

Just seen there is another mock-up of station with the new branding here:
View attachment 97172

Source: https://www.dezeen.com/2020/10/22/rail-alphabet-2-margaret-calvert-typeface-uk-stations/

Looking for the Way Out/ Exit/ Lift signs ...
I know the person is there 'for scale' but why is she not walking toward (or away from) the train; it's not giving me confidence in 'thoughtthroughness'.
No yellow line or 'dimples' for platform edge?
And what use is that map?
I don't see how colour would do anything but improve this.
I do recognise that red might heighten the heartrate associated with unadvised delay and nowhere to sit ...

I'm also wondering how long we will see mixed liveries/ identities 'in transition'. I recall long trains with motley assemblages of 'blood-and-custard', maroon, chocolate-and-cream, various shades of SR green ...
OK, so more trains are in fixed-ish formations now but I'm pretty sure we'll see a lot of random-looking variety for some time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Much like your posts on the subject.

How about waiting to see what a station looks like in the flesh with the new look? Though given past form I doubt you'd change your mind.

I remember what BR looked like, and it is basically the same.

 

[HSTEd]

Also my pet peeve.

Monitors are cheap, we should not have "page 1/2" on displays.

 

[Irascible]

That nameboard is really annoying me for some reason.

 

[Rick1984]

It would look better with a black border

 

[destere]

Straight out of about 1975. Drab and boring.

You're not going to change your mind given your very consistent postings, but you're clearly way out of touch with current design trends (and design in general if you're convinced it's 'basically the same' as it was in the 70s). There is a "mid-century" feel to it, but with a contemporary twist. Reminiscent of the recent updates to the corporate typefaces of Cathay Pacific and Apple, for example. Clean, sober, and dignified. Lovely stuff.

My only criticism is that the size of the text is too big for the sign that it is on.