Great British Railways: Branding options?

[vuzzeho]

Its not like nationalised railways have a great reputation

It feels like every single day I hear about how great nationalised railways in Europe are. The majority of the public supports nationalisation (54% for, 13% against) (YouGov). The privatised railway has a very bad reputation. With nationalisation, I fully expect the government to rub our faces in it with branding, advertising, and everything they can.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It feels like every single day I hear about how great nationalised railways in Europe are. The majority of the public supports nationalisation (54% for, 13% against) (YouGov). The privatised railway has a very bad reputation. With nationalisation, I fully expect the government to rub our faces in it with branding, advertising, and everything they can.

The different European systems do vary in what they're good and bad at - I doubt any of us would want it to look like RENFE?

However, probably the best railway in the world is SBB, and that is a nationalised operation and one that just feels like a solid and reliable piece of infrastructure.

 

[eldomtom2]

Because they target different markets, have local attachments, and won’t want all routes damaged by one of them - ie continuous headlines about GBR being late/cancelled etc when it’s just Northern for example.
Its not like nationalised railways have a great reputation (except amongst the political ideologues and the strangely nostalgic), and for similar but opposite political reasons GBR will get hammered in the media and social media.

I'm not sure how much the public differentiates between TOCs to begin with. And certainly the government will want there to be a clear public sign that something has changed.

 

[vuzzeho]

The different European systems do vary in what they're good and bad at - I doubt any of us would want it to look like RENFE?

However, probably the best railway in the world is SBB, and that is a nationalised operation and one that just feels like a solid and reliable piece of infrastructure.

Yeah, exactly (though I don't know much about RENFE)

I feel like I've heard ministers talk about how GBR is drawing inspiration from SBB. Did I just make that up? If not, then could the branding be inspired by them? Regional, Commuter, Regional Express/InterRegio, InterCity?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yeah, exactly (though I don't know much about RENFE)

I feel like I've heard ministers talk about how GBR is drawing inspiration from SBB. Did I just make that up? If not, then could the branding be inspired by them? Regional, Commuter, Regional Express/InterRegio, InterCity?

I absolutely, 100% think the InterCity brand needs to return, with a decent amount of effort put into designing how it and its more standardised service proposition might look. And what service patterns may need to change to accommodate it.

Regionals I think are less clear, that probably depends on the extent of devolution.

 

[vuzzeho]

I absolutely, 100% think the InterCity brand needs to return, with a decent amount of effort put into designing how it and its more standardised service proposition might look.

I agree, and I believe it's probably the most likely to return. InterCity is a very well loved brand and represents a level of quality we should aspire to.

 

[irish_rail]

I agree, and I believe it's probably the most likely to return. InterCity is a very well loved brand and represents a level of quality we should aspire to.

Trouble is it has been touted that this is not what we are heading for, but that we are remaining with separate operations such as GWR. A real shame , and will be very easy for the Tories (or whoever) to re-privatise in 2029 when Labour inevitably leave office. I've heard it from management (relatively high up) that GWR (to name one operator) isn't going anywhere, so hopes and dreams of "intercity" are sadly a long way off. I for one feel very let down by Labour, for whom I had great hopes.

 

[Meerkat]

It feels like every single day I hear about how great nationalised railways in Europe are. The majority of the public supports nationalisation (54% for, 13% against) (YouGov). The privatised railway has a very bad reputation. With nationalisation, I fully expect the government to rub our faces in it with branding, advertising, and everything they can.

Do you, from the general public, and do they even know what is nationalised and not? I usually only here it from people who are basing it on what they have been told, or the equivalent of comparing a TGV/Swiss branch with a peak inner suburban into Euston.
GBR is going to take a hammering - blaming the state is practically a hobby for us British.

I absolutely, 100% think the InterCity brand needs to return, with a decent amount of effort put into designing how it and its more standardised service proposition might look.

I fear the standardised product - it is more likely to be levelling down than up.

 

[signed]

The problem with the names LNER and LNWR is they sound similar and can confuse people (I rang the the wrong company up once myself)

I would just merge LNWR into WMR as a single brand, maybe with a special service name to/from London but not separate

 

[Bletchleyite]

I fear the standardised product - it is more likely to be levelling down than up.

Ignoring fares policy for a minute I think people would be more than happy were it based on the LNER offering.

For secondary IC with lesser catering like TPE/XC another brand could be used.

 

[Meerkat]

Ignoring fares policy for a minute I think people would be more than happy were it based on the LNER offering.

For secondary IC with lesser catering like TPE/XC another brand could be used.

I’m not really seeing what is achieved in an internet world. Plus opening up a political can of worms with local bigwigs kicking off about not being ‘intercity’.
are you proposing replacing brands, having LNER Intercity and GWR Intercity etc, or just an IC designation?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’m not really seeing what is achieved in an internet world. Plus opening up a political can of worms with local bigwigs kicking off about not being ‘intercity’.
are you proposing replacing brands, having LNER Intercity and GWR Intercity etc, or just an IC designation?

Just InterCity with a single service proposition across all the main lines.

There is no reason for IC TOC brands to persist.

Maybe at a push "InterCity London" and "InterCity CrossCountry" with the latter used for non London services which tend to have a more basic service proposition?

Certainly the poisonous Avanti brand must go.

 

[vuzzeho]

Do you, from the general public, and do they even know what is nationalised and not? I usually only here it from people who are basing it on what they have been told, or the equivalent of comparing a TGV/Swiss branch with a peak inner suburban into Euston.
GBR is going to take a hammering - blaming the state is practically a hobby for us British.

I do. And they seem to know that current services are (on the whole) privatised right now - although most don't know that DOHL operators are government-run. But yes, blaming the state for things (even when we have it good) is a very British pastime.

 

[physics34]

The different European systems do vary in what they're good and bad at - I doubt any of us would want it to look like RENFE?

However, probably the best railway in the world is SBB, and that is a nationalised operation and one that just feels like a solid and reliable piece of infrastructure.

Exactly, i long for a strong corporate identity and standardisation like SBB (it pretty much was under BR!). Professional and solid.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

The different European systems do vary in what they're good and bad at - I doubt any of us would want it to look like RENFE?

However, probably the best railway in the world is SBB, and that is a nationalised operation and one that just feels like a solid and reliable piece of infrastructure.

What's wrong with RENFE?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What's wrong with RENFE?

What's right with it? It basically operates what it feels like with no regard to passengers' needs (the very strong UK owned* coach network in Spain tells you everything about that, as does the huge amount of open access competition that's popping up) with low frequencies, that Talgo piece of scrap they recently introduced which is widely regarded as the worst high speed train on the market, and pointless, easily circumvented security theatre. Not a good example for anything, really - basically take SNCF and make it worse.

* NatEx Group (or whatever it's called now, I forget) owns ALSA, the main coach operator there.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

What's right with it? It basically operates what it feels like with no regard to passengers' needs (the very strong UK owned* coach network in Spain tells you everything about that, as does the huge amount of open access competition that's popping up) with low frequencies, that Talgo piece of scrap they recently introduced which is widely regarded as the worst high speed train on the market, and pointless, easily circumvented security theatre. Not a good example for anything, really - basically take SNCF and make it worse.

* NatEx Group (or whatever it's called now, I forget) owns ALSA, the main coach operator there.

I take your point, I thought you were talking about the branding.

RENFE, ironically, is my favourite European railway. I like the livery and most of the rolling stock. Especially those electric locos they use on passenger runs.

 

[Meerkat]

Just InterCity with a single service proposition across all the main lines.

There is no reason for IC TOC brands to persist.

Maybe at a push "InterCity London" and "InterCity CrossCountry" with the latter used for non London services which tend to have a more basic service proposition?

Certainly the poisonous Avanti brand must go.

What is the gain of a single service provision on lines with different markets? It will just be levelled down to the cheapest, with a lack of ongoing innovation?
I don't see any reason to get rid of strong brands like GWR for a bland Intercity.
You kind of make my point by mentioning Avanti, as losing the brand doesn't fix the problems. We will go from
"Avanti are terrible but Google says I need LNER to get to York so that's OK"
to
"I'm not getting GBR Intercity to York because its all over social media how bad they are"

Exactly, i long for a strong corporate identity and standardisation like SBB (it pretty much was under BR!). Professional and solid.

Like the Corporate Blue era (he says sarcastically)? BR did not have a professional and solid public image, quite the opposite.
Also the obvious question is why a strong corporate identity has to be at national scale - the scale and variety will just dilute and pollute the brand.

 

[Sun Chariot]

It's somewhat OT - but the most wonderfully Freudian slip of a brand I saw, was last summer.

Cars of Chichester is, as its name suggests, an independent dealership along the A27 to the south of its namesake.

August 2024, the  C fell off the awning and so, for a few days, road users were treated to the brand ars of Chichester

 

[Transilien]

I don't see any reason to get rid of strong brands like GWR for a bland Intercity.

People seem to be obsessed with the GWR brand on this forum! GBR is going to be one organisation so it only makes sense to have branding consistent across the whole network so it’s clear that GBR runs things. I think it’s very unlikely that any privatisation brand will be retained because it didn’t happen when BR was created or dissolved.

 

[physics34]

What is the gain of a single service provision on lines with different markets? It will just be levelled down to the cheapest, with a lack of ongoing innovation?
I don't see any reason to get rid of strong brands like GWR for a bland Intercity.
You kind of make my point by mentioning Avanti, as losing the brand doesn't fix the problems. We will go from
"Avanti are terrible but Google says I need LNER to get to York so that's OK"
to
"I'm not getting GBR Intercity to York because its all over social media how bad they are"


Like the Corporate Blue era (he says sarcastically)? BR did not have a professional and solid public image, quite the opposite.
Also the obvious question is why a strong corporate identity has to be at national scale - the scale and variety will just dilute and pollute the brand.

At times BR was very professional. If there is no competition and it's more of a service than a business the reputation of the 'brand' doesn't matter too much... its more of just a name for the service.

Maybe they'll have different liveries or branding for sectors again, or districts/areas.

 

[vuzzeho]

People seem to be obsessed with the GWR brand on this forum!

I noticed that too. It's a very good brand, and cues should be taken from their design and branding (I adore the painted posters), but why do people love GWR so much more than seemingly everything else?

 

[GatwickDepress]

Just InterCity with a single service proposition across all the main lines.

There is no reason for IC TOC brands to persist.

Maybe at a push "InterCity London" and "InterCity CrossCountry" with the latter used for non London services which tend to have a more basic service proposition?

Certainly the poisonous Avanti brand must go.

InterCity London would go down like a sack of spuds with people who already believe the railways and country as a whole is too London-centric.

 

[Pete_uk]

One option could be a standard design but different colours.
The AI image below shows a side profile of a class 800 in white with green window bands for GWR. LNER could stay red and midland mainline would have dark blue.
The Pendolino... black?

 

[Sun Chariot]

One option could be a standard design but different colours.
The AI image below shows a side profile of a class 800 in white with green window bands for GWR. LNER could stay red and midland mainline would have dark blue.
The Pendolino... black?

A passing resemblance to the wonderful (in my view) Great Western Trains "Merlin" livery.

 

[signed]

One option could be a standard design but different colours.
The AI image below shows a side profile of a class 800 in white with green window bands for GWR. LNER could stay red and midland mainline would have dark blue.
The Pendolino... black?

That looks bland, surely you could just keep the same livery and just have the GBR logo in place of the operator's. Costs basically nothing to do, and still signals somewhat of a regionalized brand.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's somewhat OT - but the most wonderfully Freudian slip of a brand I saw, was last summer.

Cars of Chichester is, as its name suggests, an independent dealership along the A27 to the south of its namesake.

August 2024, the  C fell off the awning and so, for a few days, road users were treated to the brand ars of Chichester

Jeremy Clarkson was the master of putting lettering lined up with doorways to create such an effect. And more on topic, there was a Mk4 DVT with "Flying Scotsman" on the side, but the "F" was on the door, so if open it said "Lying Scotsman". The picture you often saw of it with a picture of the politician of your choice was fake though.

More on topic...er...best make sure not to do that on the actual livery? (Best leave that there then...)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jan 2025 ==

InterCity London would go down like a sack of spuds with people who already believe the railways and country as a whole is too London-centric.

For trains that go to London on which practically everyone is going to, er, London?

But there are other options to differentiate. The key point is that in most of the world the branding aligns with a service package.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jan 2025 ==

That looks bland, surely you could just keep the same livery and just have the GBR logo in place of the operator's. Costs basically nothing to do, and still signals somewhat of a regionalized brand.

I don't see any need for a regionalised intercity brand. A single network with a single brand and single service proposition is a much better idea and worked well under BR.

Regional networks may need regional brands of course, particularly if they are more devolved.

 

[vuzzeho]

I don't see any need for a regionalised intercity brand. A single network with a single brand and single service proposition is a much better idea and worked well under BR.

I think if there was to be a regionalised intercity brand it would be 'InterCity East Coast, InterCity West Coast, InterCity CrossCountry, InterCity Transpennine' etc

 

[GatwickDepress]

For trains that go to London on which practically everyone is going to, er, London?

Doesn't matter if the majority of people are all going to London, it's about public perception. Surely you can understand why just branding everything as 'InterCity London' would not look good from both a political and publicity standpoint?

I think if there was to be a regionalised intercity brand it would be 'InterCity East Coast, InterCity West Coast, InterCity CrossCountry, InterCity Transpennine' etc

Similar to pre-privatisation shadow franchises? I wouldn't include TransPennine though, as it's basically a regional service.

 

[Mikey C]

I do. And they seem to know that current services are (on the whole) privatised right now - although most don't know that DOHL operators are government-run. But yes, blaming the state for things (even when we have it good) is a very British pastime.

Blaming private rail operators is also a very British pastime, even if the operator is government run, or the fault was an infrastructure one "caused" by state owned Network Rail.