Grand Central to Blackpool denied

[OMGitsDAVE]

GC have revised their Blackpool post on their site, here it is:

Grand Central surprised and disappointed by ORR announcement
2nd March 2011
Grand Central Railway is surprised and disappointed by the Office of Rail Regulation’s announcement today that it must await a ‘full recast of the timetable’ before considering whether or not Open Access Operators can serve destinations along the West Coast Main Line.
Grand Central’s proposed North Western service would have used existing capacity and rolling stock to introduce regular daily services from May 2012 linking Blackpool North, Poulton-le-Fylde, Kirkham & Wesham, Preston, Hartford, Lichfield Trent Valley, Tamworth, Nuneaton, Milton Keynes with London Euston.
Our timetable for the proposed North Western service was robust and written by the industry expert who drew up the current West Coast timetable whilst at Network Rail.
The significant support Grand Central received from Members of Parliament, Local Authorities, Rail User Groups and potential users of its proposed North Western service mean that there will be many communities along the route of the proposed new service that will share Grand Central’s deep disappointment about ORR’s announcement today.
Grand Central looks forward to meeting with the Office of Rail Regulation to better understand today’s announcement and in particular to gain an insight into the methodology by which the ORR and its consultants MVA determined that Grand Central’s North Western proposals are primarily abstractive, a conclusion that we contest.
-Ends -
Notes to editors:
Grand Central had proposed introducing its North Western service between Blackpool North and London in May 2012, when monopoly or “Moderation of Competition” granted to the current Virgin West Coast franchise comes to an end.
As the ORR states that a West Coast Main Line timetable ‘recast cannot sensibly be introduced before December 2013’ this represents a defacto twenty month extension to the current Moderation of Competition rules on the route. This decision effectively extends the current monopoly until at least the end of 2013.
Moderation of Competition rules plays a significant role in preventing other operators from serving destinations along the West Coast Main Line, stifling competition and denying the consumer choice.
Grand Central spent a significant amount of money and management time on this process and seeks to understand the ORRs justification for inviting applications for paths on the West Coast Main Line that it now feels unable to offer until 2013, at the earliest.

 

[merlodlliw]

Is there any point in allowing an Open Access service if it just goes the way of Wrexham and Shropshire?

A total different kettle of fish, DB who shut W/S down took it over from the previous sets of owners who started it, gone but not forgotten.


Bob

 

[Zoe]

A total different kettle of fish, DB who shut W/S down took it over from the previous sets of owners who started it, gone but not forgotten.

Would the original owners really have been able to continue even if DB hadn't bought them out?

 

[northwichcat]

A total different kettle of fish, DB who shut W/S down took it over from the previous sets of owners who started it, gone but not forgotten.

I think you'll find DB were involved before W&S ran their first ever service or indeed had even used the name W&S - (they were only know as Wrexham & Shropshire & Marleybone Railway at that point.)

DB taking over Arriva is completly seperate to them being involved with W&S.

 

[WestCoast]

From a purely enthusiast point of view it would have been nice to have Grand Central on the Blackpool branch line and as a another option for travelling between Preston and London. But if it is not considered practical, then it is not to be:cry:

 

[swt_passenger]

All stakeholders including NR & TOCs will have been consulted,the replies will go on the ORR website.

Bob

But not this time - they have decided not to publish all the correspondence if you read the report.

There's just a list of bullet points at the end of the main report.

 

[merlodlliw]

Would the original owners really have been able to continue even if DB hadn't bought them out?

We shall never know,TDK will have a good idea


Bob

 

[TDK]

We shall never know,TDK will have a good idea


Bob

That is a difficult question, only the MD would have the answer to that one, I do not know how the defecit of 2.9m could have been avoided and if this is a the case maybe WSMR may have finished a lot earlier.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Pretty sure LM to Preston was chucked out too. The Alliance Rail proposal was barking mad anyway and was never going to get anywhere. Like you say, makes OA seem a bit pointless as everything would abstract revenue somewhere along the line.

If the LM has been pulled (I would like a source on this) this can only mean the Dft is considering continuing the moderation of competition past 2012, if this is the case VT have it in the bag I would say, I would presume DB will be after the WCML as well.

 

[Zoe]

If the LM has been pulled (I would like a source on this) this can only mean the Dft is considering continuing the moderation of competition past 2012, if this is the case VT have it in the bag I would say, I would presume DB will be after the WCML as well.

I believe there is a case for continuing moderation of competition: Virgin were promissed a 140 mph and Railtrack failed to deliver. Isn't it only fair that this should continue until Virgin get what they were promissed however long it takes?

 

[WatcherZero]

I wonder if Blackpool is part of the West Coast new franchise?

No at least not from Dec 2013 timetable, one of the applicants was Dft on behalf of the next franchise and they asked for an hourly Euston to Lancaster/Blackpool alternating but ORR turned that down to.

ORR's biggest issue seems to be with the reliability of the current timetable and the uncertainty of electrification effect on services 2013-2016, they are quite open for extra services once that uncertainty has been removed and a full timetable recast has occured.

 

[Failed Unit]

I believe there is a case for continuing moderation of competition: Virgin were promissed a 140 mph and Railtrack failed to deliver. Isn't it only fair that this should continue until Virgin get what they were promissed however long it takes?

No, the Franchise ends in 2012 so all bets should be off. The franchise should be bid on what we have. Virgin have already got too much for the 140mph failure! They have never paid the premium remember would they have made enough if the 140mph had happened? We will never know.

 

[Zoe]

No, the Franchise ends in 2012 so all bets should be off. The franchise should be bid on what we have. Virgin have already got too much for the 140mph failure! They have never paid the premium remember would they have made enough if the 140mph had happened? We will never know.

If Virgin put in the best bid though subject to them retaining moderation of competition, don't they deserve to win?

 

[Pumbaa]

4tph between Manchester and London have been rejected.

Err - it wasn't included? If anything, ORR have given blessing for "existing franchised service enhancements post recasting of the WCML timetable in 2013" suggesting directly the opposite of your post.

In summary - mixed feelings. I'm glad the Alliance and Grand Central proposals have been rejected; the one path between Preston and London is best in the hands of the new franchise... with the rejected extra WC services! I understand the concerns on the Up path performance which was the key reason for the DfT proposal being rejected, as between us on the forum we identified both paths as a problem for non-EPS stock.

I'm also disappointed about the LM proposal to extend the Crewe/divert one Liverpool service to Preston. I think they could have been a great benefit; although 2tph to Birmingham/1tph to London via Northampton from Liverpool without the Preston diversion would have also been satisfactory.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If Virgin put in the best bid though subject to them retaining moderation of competition, don't they deserve to win?

The bidders don't get to say whether or not they want MoC. DfT have expressly specified that MoC will not form part of the new franchise detail, having previously absolved their need to include it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They have never paid the premium remember would they have made enough if the 140mph had happened? We will never know.

Didn't pay a premium for a long time, but didn't get to keep the profits either - it was turned into a management contract 2001-2006. They pay no lease on the Pendolinos (paid for by NR) and pay reduced track access charges (since Jan 10; full charge before then). They pay premium (its an absolute figure - not a % rather stupidly) but still have enough money left over; their margin is well over 10%.

 

[merlodlliw]

I think you'll find DB were involved before W&S ran their first ever service or indeed had even used the name W&S - (they were only know as Wrexham & Shropshire & Marleybone Railway at that point.)

DB taking over Arriva is completly seperate to them being involved with W&S.

DB Regio did indeed take over over lang rails interest in W/S a couple of months before before the first train ran,

I am aware of the DB interest in Arriva, however DB were the owners of Arriva/ Chiltern W/S in January 2011.


Bob

 

[Pumbaa]

In summary:

New West Coast franchise

- Extension of Lancaster paths to Glasgow APPROVED
- Existing service level with more flex post 2013 and TT recast APPROVED

- New Lancaster/Blackpool services REJECTED

London Midland

- Extra Northampton - Crewe trains at start/end of day M-S APPROVED
- Extra London - Crewe trains on Sunday to make service hourly from early morning APPROVED (Both subject to NR timetabling)

- Extending London - Crewe services to Liverpool REJECTED
- Transferring 1tph from Birmingham to Preston REJECTED

Grand Central

- All proposals REJECTED due to failing revenue abstraction tests

Alliance Rail

- All proposals REJECTED (other than Carlisle as it wasn't submitted) due to missing information; the modelled information caused it to fail secondary tests.

 

[tbtc]

Perhaps friends is too stronger word, but EC and GC are most certainly trying to work together on the ECML which is rather different to EC's predecessors who spent most of their time attempting to kill of GC.

Funny how enthusiasts don't criticise GNER for objecting to the "competition" from GC, but most seem to dislike Big Bad Virgin for objecting to the "competition" of WSMR... :roll:

 

[The Planner]

I fail to see what the point of recasting the WCML in 2013 is, hardly any of the new knitting will be up and it is highly likely it would need to be done again come 2016, why not just wait ??

 

[northwichcat]

Err - it wasn't included? If anything, ORR have given blessing for "existing franchised service enhancements post recasting of the WCML timetable in 2013" suggesting directly the opposite of your post.

It was stated in DFTs submission as a preferred option and that it would be a Manchester-London train only calling at Stockport.

A lot of people have suggested Lancaster and Liverpool would benefit more from 2tph than Manchester would from 4tph. The justification for 4tph to Manchester was using a stat of something like a 30% increase in passengers, when there's plenty of lines with no increase in service that have achieved a 30% increase, which seems to suggest the people favouring Lancaster and Liverpool for extra services could find greater justification.

 

[WatcherZero]

I fail to see what the point of recasting the WCML in 2013 is, hardly any of the new knitting will be up and it is highly likely it would need to be done again come 2016, why not just wait ??

Thats pretty much ORR's view, staggered timetable changes from 2013-2016 as electric services start to come in then a complete recast when its all done.

 

[tbtc]

I can't understand why the ORR put the option to run OA services out there and then knock them all on the head!! Wastes everybody's time and lots of money!

I think OA should be given more chances of actually getting services running. Any innovative rail plans by OAOs or exisiting TOCS wanting to run on new routes, seem to be written off. So much for privatisation enabling competition on the rails!

I can't understand why certain companies waste their time/ money with derivative applications on congested lines which are obviously going to extract revenue from existing TOCs (more so than they will generate *new* passengers)

Well done to the ORR for concentrating on existing real demand - once we have plenty spare paths and spare trains then we can start speculating on new services

 

[WestCoast]

Funny how enthusiasts don't criticise GNER for objecting to the "competition" from GC, but most seem to dislike Big Bad Virgin for objecting to the "competition" of WSMR...

I don't think any operator that is going to lose revenue because of an Open Access operator will not object, I don't think anyone should expect it to be any different. GNER were well loved because of their fleet and supposed grandeur, but Virgin are not because of their fleet and modernisation. But GNER were challenged by the general public many times in other areas, I don't know if anyone read the "GNER Commuter Blog".

 

[Zoe]

Remember that Grand Central in part cost GNER the franchise as they couldn't afford to pay the premium. The franchised TOCs have good reason to oppose Open Access.

 

[Failed Unit]

If Virgin put in the best bid though subject to them retaining moderation of competition, don't they deserve to win?

This is answered by pumbaa. Very dangerous to do as you can't compare like with like, but then other franchises would want the same. Great Western may have bidders wanting protection. In fact on East Coast can't have it as open access exists. Surely we would be in trouble under EU law if anyone got West Coast with competition protection, I am sure the uk would Bevin trouble if challenged already. No one would now as the franchise would expire before the case hit the courts.

 

[swt_passenger]

If the LM has been pulled (I would like a source on this)...

It is stated in the ORR report - is that not a good enough source?

 

[IanPooleTrains]

Funny how enthusiasts don't criticise GNER for objecting to the "competition" from GC, but most seem to dislike Big Bad Virgin for objecting to the "competition" of WSMR... :roll:

I think it was more Arriva than Virgin because they use Wrexham more than Virgin do

 

[northwichcat]

I think it was more Arriva than Virgin because they use Wrexham more than Virgin do

DB owned W&S and took over Arriva so I don't think Arriva would have been kicking up a big fuss. W&S started serving Wrexham before Virgin but Virgin weren't happy because they had 'plans' to serve Wrexham.

Arriva certainly complained about Virgin taking 'their passengers' and using 'their space' to store units.

Thinking about it is there any operator who runs in the the same area as Virgin who's not complained about them?

 

[Failed Unit]

TPE and virgin are good buddies?

 

[Zoe]

This is answered by pumbaa. Very dangerous to do as you can't compare like with like, but then other franchises would want the same. Great Western may have bidders wanting protection. In fact on East Coast can't have it as open access exists. Surely we would be in trouble under EU law if anyone got West Coast with competition protection, I am sure the uk would Bevin trouble if challenged already. No one would now as the franchise would expire before the case hit the courts.

There's still compeititon as the franchise is put out to tender. It's not as though the dft are handing Virgin a new franchise without allowing any other company to bid.

 

[IanPooleTrains]

TPE and virgin are good buddies?

First TransVirgin? Virgin Pennines? How weird would that be?

 

[ainsworth74]

Well done to the ORR for concentrating on existing real demand - once we have plenty spare paths and spare trains then we can start speculating on new services

Yes indeed. Please no more Open Access which is just an existing service with a little bit extra tacked on to make it look like something new draining precious paths and rolling stock. Now if an OAO was to suggest something like linking Glasgow and Liverpool or a similar brand new cross country route I might (only might mind you) be interested.