Grand Central requiring at-seat ordering of refreshments

[TUC]

There have been other threads on the lack of consistent availability of at-seat ordering of refreshments at some TOCs. However, judging by two return journeys I have made in the last fortnight, Grand Central seem to be taking the opposite approach of requiring refreshments to be ordered using the QR code on seats. This, however, does not result in at-seat service. Rather, passengers then have to attend the bar to collect the items ordered.

They do say items can be ordered directly at the bar, but that only cash is accepted, which seems a deliberate attempt to deter such orders.

As well as being unfair on passengers without smartphones, the policy is also questionable in disability discrimination terms. What are passengers who, due to disability, are unable to use QR codes or order online meant to do if they do not have cash with them?

A very passenger-unfriendly and legally questionable policy.

 

[duncanp]

I can't help but think they are trying to deter people from using the bar, so that they can then wtihdraw it, citing "..lack of demand.."

 

[James90012]

I'm not sure why but even before QR codes most times I've been on GC they have been cash only at the bar. That catches you out if you're pretty much cashless like me!

 

[skyhigh]

I can't help but think they are trying to deter people from using the bar, so that they can then wtihdraw it, citing "..lack of demand.."

They are open access. If they wanted to shut the bar down they wouldn't need to justify it to anyone.

 

[Parallel]

Was the at-seat ordering brought out during COVID? I wonder if it was introduced to limit the number of passengers congregating at the bar.

I've used it a few times and the app and online card payment has worked every time, though I can see that it won't work for people who don't have smartphones. I wonder if they still have a card reader and anyone who wasn't able to use the app can still make a card payment at the bar?

I know GWR no longer accepts cash for the catering on board, so at least GC still offers that... for now!

 

[WizCastro197]

They are open access. If they wanted to shut the bar down they wouldn't need to justify it to anyone.

Have to justify it to passengers?
Just because their open access doesn’t mean basic customer relations/services are any different

 

[skyhigh]

Have to justify it to passengers?
Just because their open access doesn’t mean basic customer relations/services are any different

They could simply say there's not the demand and withdraw it. There's no need to go to the hassle of making it deliberately harder to use so that they can remove it!

 

[Royston Vasey]

Having stood waiting for an LNER buffet card machine to eventually connect to the cellular signal last week as it travelled north, I wonder if it's so transactions are fully online and all the waiting around to connect is done on the customer's 4G at their seat, rather than with a queue of thirsty punters waiting

 

[Bletchleyite]

A very passenger-unfriendly

Certainly.

and legally questionable policy.

Certainly not. A private business, which GC is, can transact business how it chooses. If you don't like it (and I agree it is silly), your remedy is to withdraw your custom.

 

[py_megapixel]

To my mind, the obvious explanation is that they are charged less for card payments processed on a website than those using a physical terminal. So by sending all card payments through their website, they can save money on card processing fees - and also eliminate the need for a card machine at the counter, which is an extra piece of equipment that costs money and can go wrong. Of course, cash payments can't be processed online so they are still accepted at the counter.

 

[TUC]

Certainly.



Certainly not. A private business, which GC is, can transact business how it chooses. If you don't like it (and I agree it is silly), your remedy is to withdraw your custom.

Being a private business makes no difference to the need to comply with disability discrimination legislation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Being a private business makes no difference to the need to comply with disability discrimination legislation.

Making reasonable adjustments for a disabled person does NOT require one, legally or morally, to offer those same adjustments to people who do not have that disability.

 

[TUC]

Making reasonable adjustments for a disabled person does NOT require one, legally or morally, to offer those same adjustments to people who do not have that disability.

Who said it did? I'm not sure of the point you're making?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Who said it did? I'm not sure of the point you're making?

The point is that there is nothing illegal whatsoever about only offering card payment by way of a smartphone, but cash at the buffet counter.

 

[TUC]

The point is that there is nothing illegal whatsoever about only offering card payment by way of a smartphone, but cash at the buffet counter.

I didn't say there was. However, it is silly on a business level as some passengers will not have smartphones and, unless one knows about the cash only position in advance, who gets on a train with significant amounts of cash these days?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I didn't say there was. However, it is silly on a business level as some passengers will not have smartphones and, unless one knows about the cash only position in advance, who gets on a train with significant amounts of cash these days?

You said it was legally questionable in post 1. It isn't. Not in any way whatsoever.

 

[TUC]

You said it was legally questionable in post 1. It isn't. Not in any way whatsoever.

It is on a disability discrimination level if a disability inhibits a passenger from being able to use a smartphone and reasonable alternatives, such as being able to pay by card, are not made available.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is on a disability discrimination level if a disability inhibits a passenger from being able to use a smartphone and reasonable alternatives, such as being able to pay by card, are not made available.

Being able to pay cash instead is a reasonable adjustment. In the incredibly unlikely event that a disabled person had no cash and was unable to use a smartphone (this is looking like the RUK Standard Minority again) they can probably be given it for free, which would be cheaper than having a PDQ machine to serve that one person every few months. There is no obligation to do anything for a person who chose to carry neither smartphone nor cash, if that person even exists.

 

[Huntergreed]

It is on a disability discrimination level if a disability inhibits a passenger from being able to use a smartphone and reasonable alternatives, such as being able to pay by card, are not made available.

It really isn’t - or every “cash only” or “online payment only” (ie, no card payment in person) business in the country would have been shut down for breaching disability discrimination legislation.

This is off-topic anyway. I would suggest that the closing of the buffet is a bit like how Avanti are trying to “out-price” first class, follow this and then suddenly demand falls, so you have an excuse to scrap it.

 

[liamf656]

The catering on Grand Central is outsourced by Rail Gourmet so the choice to go cash/card only either lies with them or it'll be an agreement between them and Grand Central. It also explains why EMR, GWR and TPE are all card only on their catering services. It reduces the security risk onboard and lowers the cost in cash collection.

Back on topic with regards to the QR code service. I believe the original reason was to reduce congregation around the buffet bar during the height of covid. It's also a way to boost sales as you can order at your table and collect your food/drink, and people are more inclined to order if the facility is available on a smartphone. On other TOCs people are more reluctant to go to the bar if they don't exactly know what is on offer

From experience the way to maximise revenue onboard with catering is to introduce an at seat trolley as passengers will then be able to get what they want without even getting up. EMR are even removing the buffet bars in the next couple of years, however I understand that won't be possible on all TOCs

 

[Parallel]

From experience the way to maximise revenue onboard with catering is to introduce an at seat trolley as passengers will then be able to get what they want without even getting up. EMR are even removing the buffet bars in the next couple of years, however I understand that won't be possible on all TOCs

I think it depends. On GWR, there is one STD class trolley on a 9 car IET which can take literally hours to get to you on a well loaded train, and they also won't serve you if you're not sat down. Click and collect (or an at-seat delivery service) allows more flexibility for passengers, who can decide when they want a cup of tea, rather than just when the trolley comes around. An online site (or app) also allows you to see stock available without having to ask and being told "no we don't have any of that... or that... or that". I'm for click and collect or/and at seat delivery personally. I don't think there's anything wrong with having a trolley in addition to a shop (I think LNER used to do this) but I can't imagine there's a lot of money made from on board catering, especially when you factor in cost (with the exception of a match being on and everyone getting up to buy 4 cans of beer at a time, which was something I witnessed on XC a couple of months ago) so would imagine the overall aim in most cases is to keep costs down.

 

[Bluejays]

So people are getting worried about a so far hypothetical number of people who have made the decision to stop carrying cash but also don't own a smartphone. They take card payments or cash payments , you're covered however you want to pay.

 

[humbersidejim]

I’d be grateful that catering is still available: Post covid, Hull Trains still have no catering whatsoever in standard.

It’s disappointing to me that they haven’t chosen to restore it, but the economics of it obviously stacks up for the business

 

[The exile]

I didn't say there was. However, it is silly on a business level as some passengers will not have smartphones and, unless one knows about the cash only position in advance, who gets on a train with significant amounts of cash these days?

Anyone who has the good sense to be prepared for all eventualities.

 

[westv]

I’d be grateful that catering is still available: Post covid, Hull Trains still have no catering whatsoever in standard.

It’s disappointing to me that they haven’t chosen to restore it, but the economics of it obviously stacks up for the business

I'm assuming the catering won't come back until they replace the staff they made redundant.

 

[AlterEgo]

It is on a disability discrimination level if a disability inhibits a passenger from being able to use a smartphone and reasonable alternatives, such as being able to pay by card, are not made available.

No it isn’t, any more than it isn’t illegal to fail to offer at seat service for customers unable to make it to the buffet car.

 

[Butts]

I’d be grateful that catering is still available: Post covid, Hull Trains still have no catering whatsoever in standard.

It’s disappointing to me that they haven’t chosen to restore it, but the economics of it obviously stacks up for the business

Have they still got in 1st Class ?

 

[westv]

Have they still got in 1st Class ?

Yes but, as far as I'm aware, it's just sandwiches apart from breakfast - bacon or "sausage" roll only

 

[harz99]

More of an issue than the payment methods is surely the requirement to physically go to the buffet and collect your order, many people will find that stops them from ordering in the first place as they are either unable to safely move through a moving train, or if say on their own with a very young child cannot manage that child and the getting through said moving train...

 

[Jim the Jim]

I would imagine that people without smartphones are amongst those most likely to carry cash.