Grand Central put back to September

[Jordy]

From http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/6595341.stm

A new rail link between the North East and London has been postponed by several months.

Grand Central had planned to operate from Sunderland to Kings Cross from 20 May but an overhaul of second-hand rolling stock is behind schedule.

The firm now plans to launch the three-times daily East Coast Mainline service, calling at Teesside and North Yorkshire, in September.

Managing director Ian Yeowart blamed the delay on shareholder negotiations.

He said: "Our refurbishment programme was held up by negotiations over the change in major shareholder at the start of the year, but is now firmly on track.

"We are confident that our trains will provide comfort and reliability to match the best of what is currently available on the East Coast Main Line."

Chinese fleet

Company chairman Giles Fearnley said the delay was disappointing, but that the service would only commence once the entire fleet of six engines and 18 carriages were ready.

Grand Central is spending £5m refurbishing the 125mph High Speed Trains (HSTs), purchased last year.

In November, problems obtaining the stock initially delayed the launch of the service, which was first due to commence on 10 December 2006.

The company plans to replace the fleet with 140mph Chinese-built "Polaris" trains in 2010, if its five-year track access contract can be extended.

Grand Central is also pursuing plans to run trains between Bradford and London, after an application to launch a service between Newcastle and Manchester was rejected by the Office of Rail Regulation.

 

[Dennis]

Wot no trains :jerk:

How's that...planning to run a train service without any stock - even First can't manage a grade A c*ck up like that.

I hear there are a few Pacers going spare; have to run them on the slow lines though.

 

[Kris]

http://www.rmtbristol.org.uk/2007/04/rail_operator_to_buy_chinese_t_1.html

 

[scb201]

From http://www.grandcentralrail.co.uk/news.html

New trains for North East passengers
[Tuesday 13 April 2007]

Grand Central announces that, immediately following the launch of its new direct rail services between Sunderland and London it is preparing to place an order for new rolling stock.

The new stock will be a direct replacement for Grand Central’s iconic HST (High Speed Train) that has served the UK rail industry so well over the past 25 years, and will be capable of 140 mph operation to ensure it can take advantage of any future line speed increases on the East Coast Main Line (ECML).

Stock will be made available by Grand Central’s sister company Sovereign Trains, and the "Polaris" train sets will be procured from China and delivered to the UK for final testing in 2010.

Ian Yeowart, Managing Director of Grand Central states:

"The delivery of the re-built HSTs is of course the first target, but the discussions that have taken place over many months on the new-build trains gives us confidence that they will be an exceptional replacement for the HST – and of course will meet all the regulatory and safety requirements for trains introduced to the UK rail network"

Giles Fearnley, Chairman of Grand Central, adds:

"We are delighted that this exciting project can continue to move forward, and of course the new trains will eventually be deployed on our Bradford services as well"

"The actual procurement process is very much tied in to the length of our Track Access Contract, and we are confident our colleagues at Network Rail will see the benefit of this significant investment when reviewing its terms".

David Shipley, Director of Engineering of Sovereign Trains comments:

"A great deal of effort and resource has been made in preparing Grand Central for operation, and we are sure passengers will be impressed not only by the new trains but also by the re-built HSTs when they come into operation"

"The Polaris units will be very much focused on passenger requirements and expectations and we look forward to working with colleagues at Network Rail to ensure the trains meet their expectations on reliability, weight and operational capability".

Grand Central will begin operating three daily services between Sunderland and London later this year, and is seeking to run a fourth service - and has already made a timetable request to Network Rail.

In addition Grand Central has long standing plans to operate direct trains between London and Bradford via Halifax.

 

[adambro]

... a bloody long time!

 

[paul1609]

Personally I dont believe that Great Central services to Sunderland will ever run and if they do it will only a short time before the company goes broke.

 

[Darandio]

I don't agree with you Paul, I think it will start albeit eventually and I don't think they will go bust soon after. It has been done before by Hull Trains and that has worked even if there are differences between the two companies.

To say it won't ever start is a bit wrong considering they do have the rolling stock, it is being currently refurbished and driver training/route learning is well underway.

 

[Pathfinder]

GC will be ready by september,if not before.As stated,the route learning is well underway with not just drivers route learning but the senior conductors also,the trailer vehicles are almost done,at least 1 will be at wabtech doncaster this week,so keep your eyes peeled !!

 

[paul1609]

I don't agree with you Paul, I think it will start albeit eventually and I don't think they will go bust soon after. It has been done before by Hull Trains and that has worked even if there are differences between the two companies.

To say it won't ever start is a bit wrong considering they do have the rolling stock, it is being currently refurbished and driver training/route learning is well underway.

I think that there are several differneces between GC and Hull trains. I cant see that there is any viable market for GC north of Northallerton. Alledgedly the delay to services is caused by GC being unable to pay DML who are refurbishing the power cars.

As I see it there are 3 options;

1) GC never start and HSTs are sold elswhere.
2) GC are absorbed into GNer franchise and subsidy provided probably after voiciferous campaign by local politicians.
3) GC start ORR wont bail them out and they go bust

 

[Darandio]

I cant see that there is any viable market for GC north of Northallerton.

I can imagine there would be a huge customer base in Sunderland and Hartlepool wanting to try a direct service to London. The key is for Grand Central to impress and keep them. Eaglescliffe, could also provide a customer base taking in customers from Saltburn, Redcar & Newcastle.

Alledgedly the delay to services is caused by GC being unable to pay DML who are refurbishing the power cars.

Is this based on fact a well known fact or are you alledging it?

 

[paul1609]

Lets consider the stations Grand Central will serve;
Sunderland, 12 miles and 20 mins from Durham Station by Road where GNER offer a faster, more frequent (hourly) direct service. Being on the Coast 90% of the population actually live somewhere between Sunderland and Durham or Newcastle Stations. Faster service available by Metro changing at Newcastle.
Hartlepool, 26 miles from Darlington Station 36 mins by road will probably provide some passengers but population of 90,000 is insufficent to support a direct service at this distance from London given there are likely to be very few passengers from Sunderland.
Eaglescliffe could act as a parkway station for Teeside however with only 3 trains a day motorists are more likely to plump for GNER services from Northalerton or Darlington.
Thirsk small country market town in North Yorkshire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darandio
Is this based on fact a well known fact or are you alledging it?

It is alledged here (not by me):

http://groups.google.com/group/uk.r...ffa8efcb72b/bc11171a656a8588#bc11171a656a8588

 

[Darandio]

I suppose it's just a case of 'wait and see' now then isn't it. I imagine when it does eventually get off the ground there will be a fairly big demand for the available seats initially but as I have said before, it is up to Grand Central to keep them.

 

[theblackwatch]

I would hardly have described Hull as the centre of the universe, plus it was already served by one GNER service, and Hull Trains seems to be working quite well. Paul has missed out out one important stop in his list of stations served, and that is York. I can see the trains being rather popular from here, particularly for businesses which want to save money - a Standard Class return going out on the 08.22 (arr KX 10.31) and back at 16.50 will be, according to GC's website, £59. A lot of people at my work currently travel on the 08.34 ex York and return around 16.00-17.00 when having meetings in London. The 08.34 is the first train offering GNER's 'cheaper' Business Saver ticket at over £100.

 

[paul1609]

I would hardly have described Hull as the centre of the universe, plus it was already served by one GNER service, and Hull Trains seems to be working quite well. Paul has missed out out one important stop in his list of stations served, and that is York. I can see the trains being rather popular from here, particularly for businesses which want to save money - a Standard Class return going out on the 08.22 (arr KX 10.31) and back at 16.50 will be, according to GC's website, £59. A lot of people at my work currently travel on the 08.34 ex York and return around 16.00-17.00 when having meetings in London. The 08.34 is the first train offering GNER's 'cheaper' Business Saver ticket at over £100.

My original post said that I didnt believe there was a viable market north of Northalerton I do believe that Grand Central will be able to carry out a raid on Gners revenue at York hence why I omitted York. However I still dont believe that will be sufficent to cover costs of a service all the way to Sunderland. At the end of the day this story is being played out in front of us we will see who is right.

 

[Darandio]

I am glad you can see my point Metroland, it is a hell of a customer base up here and this is a service which we badly need.

For example there are currently two ways to get to London from where I live in Redcar. Firstly, get a Northern pacer to Darlington and then obviously a GNER to London. Secondly, get a Pacer to Middlesbrough/Thornaby, change on to a Transpennine Express to York and then a GNER to London.

Where I live (and it will be the same for Middlesbrough residents) I will still have to make a change at Eaglescliffe so it doesn't make a great deal of difference to me unless the price is right but for residents of Sunderland & Hartlepool it is invaluable.

As for the Northallerton/Thirsk debate, I can understand leaving Thirsk out for a faster journey but because the train will join the ECML at Northallerton at a relatively slow speed anyway and may be sometimes stopped to let traffic through before joining the ECMl then Northallerton can really be served without a reduction in overall journey time.

 

[Donny Dave]

Sunderland, 12 miles and 20 mins from Durham Station by Road

Hartlepool, 26 miles from Darlington Station 36 mins by road

Try driving that during the day. Darlington in particular is a nightmare to get round....

Eaglescliffe could act as a parkway station for Teeside however with only 3 trains a day motorists are more likely to plump for GNER services from Northalerton or Darlington.

Thirsk small country market town in North Yorkshire.

I would be surprised if motorists decided to drive to Darlington or Northallerton. As I said above, Darlington is a nightmare to get round, and Northalerton is even worse. Add in the fact there is very little parking space at both places (other than at the very edge of the towns). Motorists are going to go by car if that's the case.

Thirsk is a prosperous market town in North Yorkshire, and deserves a better service then what it gets. A combination of GC and TPE calling at Thirsk would be ideal, as this gives the town direct links to London, Manchester, West Yorkshire and Newcastle.

 

[Pathfinder]

GC have done their homework guys,why do you think that some of the big players were circling like vultures last year ? They know there is a market for this service from sunderland etc,thats why Equishare(GC's owner)have committed to this venture as well as ordering the new trains for 2010 delivery,you can bet that Giles Fearnley and Bob Howells(Chairman & Vice Chairman)have come into this with their eyes wide open ! Darandio,keep the faith brother !!

 

[Darandio]

Oh I will keep the faith Pathfinder, I am in no doubt that it will happen whether it be this September or whether it is put back again. What we have to rely on is the many local people who have cried out for this type of service to actually use it or risk it's imminent withdrawal which in truth could happen.
This is also coupled with the fact that I believe Grand Central do have more hope on providing a London-Bradford service which I think would take priority if they did get it and had to choose cost cutting between this route and the North East one.

 

[paul1609]

I think Paul has got a point that the market is difficult, but you could say that about services that have shown enormous rejuvenation over the years such as the Chiltern service competing with the modernised WCML and newish M40. BR never really tapped into the Durham coast, Hull or Lincolnshire markets. They did run one HST at one time to Middlesbrough called the 'Cleveland Exceutive', and another once a day service to Cleethorpes with its differential line speeds. Why they withdrew those services is unclear. I would image having outbased stock was expensive.

The last time some of these areas had a truly frequent London service is beyond my knowledge, probably the 1950s or 1960s. Even in LNER days it was very much second best to the main line. In those days to get across to the main line with comprehensive branch network that existed, long since dismantled. So development to an extent is probably historical, leaving these quite large towns with little more than a pacer service. There's no area in the country that has such a poor service compared to its' population and the innovation of direct services is in my opinion something worth trying, especially as it's sub-3 hours from London.

The Cleveland Executive ran from Newcastle initially via Darlington to Middlesborough and then Kings cross and then via Sunderland and Hartlepool from the introduction of HSTs up until the 1990s. It was withdrawn due to lack of patronage, north of York averaging 35 passengers in its last couple of years. So it arrived first class leading at Kings Cross after the reversal at Middlesborough it used to depart northwards from Newcastle.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

GC have done their homework guys,why do you think that some of the big players were circling like vultures last year ? They know there is a market for this service from sunderland etc,thats why Equishare(GC's owner)have committed to this venture as well as ordering the new trains for 2010 delivery,you can bet that Giles Fearnley and Bob Howells(Chairman & Vice Chairman)have come into this with their eyes wide open ! Darandio,keep the faith brother !!

I think the Grand Central press release says that they will be ordering the new trains shortly after their services commence.
I'm quite surprised that an off the shelf chineese design meets NR Group Standards especially crash worthyness for 140 mph operation.

 

[Nick W]

I agree not only that the teeside area deserves a far better, direct service to London but that it also deserves connections to other places such as scottish cities and Birmingham. It is one of the places that lacks connections, particularly the rich and economy-boosting intercity connections.

I'd certainly consider running some scotland - london services as well as cross counrty services via sunderland and middlesborough and relevent areas. We keep hearing about the north-south divide in our economies, so here's a chance to do something.

People are probably going to mention the difficulties of running trains on this route, especially giving the metro trains. But recently we heard news about the demand for a high speed link between middlesborough/teeside and newcastle. Well isn't there a great opportunity to put the 2 together and upgrade the line to allow enhanced traffic?

I bet that in countries like France they'd even consider builing LGVs to places like Teeside to improve the economy. The excuse is that economic centres are already too close to London to justify this, but what about Teeside? I'm not suggesting that we need there's no reason therefore why we can't give the line a WCML style upgrade however.

I also think that they should be working with local contractors to provide new developments that the railway could offer services to, just as in London.

 

[Max]

I personally think their is a huge potential customer base. You've got to remember that the average person would rather avoid changing trains, they see it as a hassle and an inconvenience. Grand Central are not only providing Sunderland and Hartlepool with direct links to London, but also to York, one of the most important cities in the north, and a good interchange point for onward services to Manchester and the Midlands. I'm sure people would rather have one interchange at York on a HST with plenty of luggage space and facilities such as a buffet car, then have to drag their bags onto the metro to get into Newcastle. Same argument for people to London really - they can sit in their seat and not have to get up for around 3 hours if they don't want to. No hassle of pulling heavy bags off the crowded metro train, up the escalators, finding the platform, crossing the bridge, putting the bag on the GNER train then finding your seat!

When Hull Trains were first established, their critics said there would never be any market for the service. However, despite the fact that they could only use 100mph trains for the first 3-4 years, they built up a huge passenger base, largely marketed on the fact that it was a 'direct' service, not neccessarily a quicker one! They complimented this with excellent, friendly customer service, an easy to understand ticket range with good value advance purchase tickets and a good choice of onboard catering. 6 years on from their formation, they have invested thousands on new 125mph class 222 trains, and now offer 7 services each way in the week. They have a great deal of repect in Hull and East Yorkshire and an ever growing customer base. In fact, they are a great success story. Who is to say GC won't have the same success. There is no reason why they won't.

Take Howden for example. Before Hull Trains called there, they had an infrequent Hull-York service and no service to Doncaster for interchange to London. It's true that the station is a fair way out of the town centre (2 miles approx) but this is still pretty poor for one of East Yorkshire's largest settlements. Thanks to Hull Trains, there are now 7 more direct services to Hull, 7 direct services to Doncaster and London and more local connections to the nearby town of Selby. They have nearly doubled the service frequency, and the locals have reacted very well, with a good number boarding there, often to travel all the way to London! Of course, the station does not just serve Howden, but most of rural East Yorkshire (Market Weighton for example).

I say good luck to Grand Central. The delays are unfortunate, but hopefully they will be successful when service finally commences in September.

 

[Pathfinder]

The s/land-Kx route wont be lost to help the bradford-halifax-Kx route,GC have made their intentions clear,s/land-kx first then the bradford -halifax-kx route,there is just a timetabling issue with the bradford route to sort out with NR,also,once the new builds have been delivered to the s/land route,the HST's will go to bradford until the rest of the new trains are built and delivered.Darandio,GC have invested heavily in staff recruitment/training etc in the north east for the s/land venture,they aint gonna throw it away that quickly my friend,believe me ! Nick W,it would be nice to think that a service could run from scotland to KX via teeside,i dont think the metro would be a problem as NR run the line from pelaw to sunderland and along with Nexus who run metro have been very helpful in changing metro times for GC's 06.46 departure(when it runs,lol) !!!

 

[Spaceflower]

i reckon it will work. sundrerland and teeside are large conurbations, currently without london connections, but one competitor that hasnt been mentioned is durham-tess valley airport. hartlepool is a large, rapidly expanding town with, currently, very poor rail links. i reckon peterlee should be served too, considering the amount of industry located there, with a station at horden doing the job.

durham-tees valley airport- the huge growth in traffic at this airport surely demonstrates the increasing demand for better connections from teeside. although i think this growth has tailed off lately, perhaps GC have the right idea