Grand Central Pricing Shenanigans

[yorksrob]

Yesterday I decided that I would like to visit my relatives down South around Easter.

I checked NRE to see if there were any advanced fares on Grand Central from York to London and lo and behold, there was a very reasonable advanced purchase fare.

Fast forward to today and I've conformed my plans and I go to the station to purchase my ticket, safe in the knowledge that if the cheapest fare isn't there, there will be another not too far off. Only, when I get to the station, the person at the office says that there aren't any advanced fares on that train, only the off-peak at around £56.60 !

"There must be some mistake " I exclaim, as I checked the prices yesterday, and it seems very peculiar that all the AP's have sold out this early ? Sure enough, I check NRE on my mobile phone and no AP fares are there.

I suppose there might have been a rush on and all the fares are gone, however my suspicions were aroused when I got back to my desk and filtered all the GC trains for the 13th April. It turns out that none of their trains had any AP fares, yet two days before and two days after, all of their trains have the sort of spread of advance fares one might expect so far in advance.

Given the extreme unlikelihood that all AP's on that day would have been sold out naturally, does anyone know what Grand Central are playing at ?

 

[Romilly]

Maybe you saw an accidental early release of Advances that was then cancelled. There are though £22 extended-booking Advances on VTEC on that date from York to London.

 

[yorkie]

They may have released them too early by accident. They'll re-appear.

If £13.20 on VTEC is any good, PM me your choice of train and seating preferences and you'll receive your ticket at the Harrogate/Knaresborough forum meal.

 

[yorksrob]

Maybe you saw an accidental early release of Advances that was then cancelled. There are though £22 extended-booking Advances on VTEC on that date from York to London.

Potentially.

It's most annoying to be sent on a wild goose chase though. One would have hoped that they would stick with it if they release them, particularly as they've been released for following days !

I may have to go with a competitor if no AP's are forthcoming.

 

[yorksrob]

They may have released them too early by accident. They'll re-appear.

If £13.20 on VTEC is any good, PM me your choice of train and seating preferences and you'll receive your ticket at the Harrogate/Knaresborough forum meal.

Cheers Yorkie,

I'll let you know if they don't turn up !

 

[CyrusWuff]

I would suggest that, with it being Maundy Thursday that day, someone realised that their services are likely to be busier than normal and duly pulled the Advance tickets, reasoning that they'll be able to fill trains just with walk-up fares.

Whilst it's extremely poor form that they did so after they'd already been released, there's not a whole lot you can do about it as they're not a franchised operator.

 

[TUC]

You could have just bought the ticket online whilst the Advance fares were still available.

 

[Starmill]

That's not really a helpful point to make at this stage. He didn't; it's strongly implied that Yorksrob's plans needed to be confirmed before tickets could be purchased.

 

[yorksrob]

I would suggest that, with it being Maundy Thursday that day, someone realised that their services are likely to be busier than normal and duly pulled the Advance tickets, reasoning that they'll be able to fill trains just with walk-up fares.

Whilst it's extremely poor form that they did so after they'd already been released, there's not a whole lot you can do about it as they're not a franchised operator.

Whilst removing some cheaper tiers might be sensible, I would strongly suspect that removing the lot will be an own goal, given how much of their patronage seems to rely on AP. If they persist, Grand Central may be the only operator running empty trains on Maundy Thursday.

 

[yorksrob]

That's not really a helpful point to make at this stage. He didn't; it's strongly implied that Yorksrob's plans needed to be confirmed before tickets could be purchased.

Thank you Starmill, this was indeed the case.

 

[Moonshot]

At least you have a choice of fares from different operators - market competition etc.

 

[yorksrob]

At least you have a choice of fares from different operators - market competition etc.

That's a fair point. Open access has enabled a certain amount of choice in price and product.

 

[DaiGog]

It is a bit strange, as the day before and the day after are awash with their usual cheap AP. Keep checking back would be my advice - or just ask them?

 

[Joe Paxton]

Maybe you saw an accidental early release of Advances that was then cancelled.

How often does that happen?

It is a bit strange, as the day before and the day after are awash with their usual cheap AP. Keep checking back would be my advice - or just ask them?

Tweet them maybe?

 

[yorksrob]

- or just ask them?

I have indeed.

We shall see what we shall see.

 

[Skutter]

Whilst removing some cheaper tiers might be sensible, I would strongly suspect that removing the lot will be an own goal, given how much of their patronage seems to rely on AP. If they persist, Grand Central may be the only operator running empty trains on Maundy Thursday.

They can always release some AP tickets closer to the time, if it looks like they will have space. Presumably there's no bar on any TOC doing this?

 

[Paul Duck]

Hi. I'm not sure Grand Central have any plans to release cheap fares for Maundy Thursday. I'm not sure what fares you seen on line but we haven't seen any appear at eaglescliffe.
Trust me when I say grand central will not have any empty trains over easter! They didn't release any cheaper fares for certain days over Christmas and they were packed to the rafters like usual.
Grand central are playing around with there advance purchase fares at the moment for example the 1918 kings cross to Sunderland service Monday to Friday's from 12th March up until the Easter only has the walk up fare available.

 

[yorksrob]

Hi. I'm not sure Grand Central have any plans to release cheap fares for Maundy Thursday. I'm not sure what fares you seen on line but we haven't seen any appear at eaglescliffe.
Trust me when I say grand central will not have any empty trains over easter! They didn't release any cheaper fares for certain days over Christmas and they were packed to the rafters like usual.
Grand central are playing around with there advance purchase fares at the moment for example the 1918 kings cross to Sunderland service Monday to Friday's from 12th March up until the Easter only has the walk up fare available.

Are they seriously expecting trains full of people paying £56 throughout the day ? Their commercial management must have taken leave of their senses.

I can see that they won't have any empty trains over Easter because they have AP tickets available on Friday, Saturday and Sunday. I don't count Thursday as Easter though.

 

[Paul Duck]

Are they seriously expecting trains full of people paying £56 throughout the day ? Their commercial management must have taken leave of their senses.

I can see that they won't have any empty trains over Easter because they have AP tickets available on Friday, Saturday and Sunday. I don't count Thursday as Easter though.

There trains will be pretty rammed. We record passenger numbers getting off at eaglescliffe throughout the Thursday before Easter and it's between 75-100 and that's just one station,wouldn't like to think how many passengers get off at York,thirst and Northallerton. The 1918 Kings cross-Sunderland departure on the Thursday is the most overcrowded trains of the year. We are surprised at the lack of ap fares grand central are releasing at the moment and sometimes when the high price level of advanced purchase fare that is released.

 

[yorksrob]

There trains will be pretty rammed. We record passenger numbers getting off at eaglescliffe throughout the Thursday before Easter and it's between 75-100 and that's just one station,wouldn't like to think how many passengers get off at York,thirst and Northallerton. The 1918 Kings cross-Sunderland departure on the Thursday is the most overcrowded trains of the year. We are surprised at the lack of ap fares grand central are releasing at the moment and sometimes when the high price level of advanced purchase fare that is released.

I'll be travelling in the opposite direction, so against the peak flow. I don't doubt that demand will be strong, given the time of year, however I can't see them conjuring up a train full of people paying walk-on fares where previously the train wasn't full even with a large proportion of AP.

 

[Haywain]

Maundy Thursday is generally felt (within the industry) to be the busiest day of the year, bar none, for long distance travel. Grand Central are such an operator and likely to experience the same thing. Unlike many TOCs, GC benefit from having dedicated fares for the majority of journeys on their services so they have no demanding reason to offer Advance fares.

 

[Clip]

I'll be travelling in the opposite direction, so against the peak flow. I don't doubt that demand will be strong, given the time of year, however I can't see them conjuring up a train full of people paying walk-on fares where previously the train wasn't full even with a large proportion of AP.

Im pretty sure that after a few years in service that Grand Central know exactly what they are doing and their passenger flows better than anyone on certain days and as such price accordingly.

If they don't know this information I would be highly surprised and would expect some heads to roll.

 

[blakey1152]

GC also seem to have a permanent offer that after you book online with them and about a week after your travel date they send you an e-mail with a 20% off discount code valid for 30 days on Advanced and other tickets (Both First/Standard Class).
It is only for Grand Central trains no other TOC but its obviously used to entice you to use them again.

If you can find someone with a code that wasn't going to use it would make the fare a lot cheaper!

Blakey

 

[Joe Paxton]

GC also seem to have a permanent offer that after you book online with them and about a week after your travel date they send you an e-mail with a 20% off discount code valid for 30 days on Advanced and other tickets (Both First/Standard Class).
It is only for Grand Central trains no other TOC but its obviously used to entice you to use them again.

Does this offer work if the initial tickets you book on their site are not for GC travel I wonder?

 

[yorksrob]

Thanks for all the replies. I've made alternative arrangements now, so its all academic.

 

[anme]

I'll be travelling in the opposite direction, so against the peak flow. I don't doubt that demand will be strong, given the time of year, however I can't see them conjuring up a train full of people paying walk-on fares where previously the train wasn't full even with a large proportion of AP.

On the busiest day of the year, maybe they can. I don't know. But you're missing the point of advance fares. Carrying 300 people at GBP 50 each is much better for the train operator than carrying 500 people at GBP 20 each. Advance fares are about maximising income, not passenger numbers.

 

[yorksrob]

On the busiest day of the year, maybe they can. I don't know. But you're missing the point of advance fares. Carrying 300 people at GBP 50 each is much better for the train operator than carrying 500 people at GBP 20 each. Advance fares are about maximising income.

Well, if anyone does happen to be travelling on that train on that day, I'd be interested to hear how busy it is.

Ultimately the state pays for capacity on the railways for the purpose of enabling people to go about their business and contributing to the economy. Allowing trains to cart around empty seats may be good for the company, but it isn't an effective use of that resource. AP should be about making use of that resource.

 

[anme]

Well, if anyone does happen to be travelling on that train on that day, I'd be interested to hear how busy it is.

Ultimately the state pays for capacity on the railways for the purpose of enabling people to go about their business and contributing to the economy. Allowing trains to cart around empty seats may be good for the company, but it isn't an effective use of that resource. AP should be about making use of that resource.

I tend to agree with you, but that's absolutely not how the current system works. I would actually prefer to scrap all AP tickets and set walk up fares at lower levels. After all, given that the state indeed subsidises the railways for the wider benefits to society, why should we give discounts to those who can plan their journeys far in advance, while penalising those who need to travel at short notice?

I recognise there might be problems with this approach, but I certainly believe in the principle.

 

[yorksrob]

I tend to agree with you, but that's absolutely not how the current system works. I would actually prefer to scrap all AP tickets and set walk up fares at lower levels. After all, given that the state indeed subsidises the railways for the wider benefits to society, why should we give discounts to those who can plan their journeys far in advance, while penalising those who need to travel at short notice?

I recognise there might be problems with this approach, but I certainly believe in the principle.

There are good arguments to such an approach, and to their credit GC's walk on fares are a lot more reasonably priced than most similar distance TOC's. Ten years ago I would have agreed wholeheartedly with that approach, however from a personal point of view, I've come to rely on advanced purchase.

There's also the fact that AP helps to spread passenger flows to particular trains and so enable passenger, as well as yield management.

My view at present is that TOC's should have to decide AP allocations on a yearly basis, so that they can broadly reflect overall demand, but don't leave passengers in the lurch by withdrawing all AP's at the drop of a hat.

 

[yorkie]

Are they seriously expecting trains full of people paying £56 throughout the day ?

Yes

I don't count Thursday as Easter though.

True; it's busier than Easter!